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[scently]

Reminds me of nVidia when they stated that RSX was a 2TFlops chip.

Yeah, I have changed it.

 

[seattle6418]

Based on what we know, this is what I think happened.

VGLeaks and other sites leaked the WiiU, Vita, and PS4 specs and were pretty right on target. There's no reason to think Durango's specs are not mostly correct as well. I have no reason to doubt vgleak's claim when they say their PS4 documents were just 1.5 month old and that Sony must have changed the RAM from mid January to early February. Sony and MS probably knew each other's tentative final specs at least a month or two before we did as well.

Now, rumor has it that Durango will launch in September, come hell or high water, or heads will roll. I hear these things go past the point of no return ~6 months prior to release, with manufacturing and production starting shortly thereafter. Sony has enough experience to know this and I also expect Sony to ship in October/November/December for Japan/US/EU respectively.

I think Sony knew that MS was entering its final phases and was going to start building Durango soon. They probably decided to change the RAM in January after talking to just close developers (SSM, ND, GG) and no one else and held that card close to their chest so it wouldn't leak any time before they wanted it to. Even some developers didn't know it and, based on Major Nelson's and others attitudes, I'm sure MS didn't know it. Sony basically just threw a curveball at MS. MS can change the RAM amount, but that would mean money invested, higher BOM than they finalized, and missing the September deadline (therefore missing the 2/3 month US/EU advantage according to my estimates). It is possible that, if all that is rumored is true, if MS were to change anything now, they could miss the holidays altogether.

Will be interesting to see what MS does, they can severely undercut Sony's price or they can work overtime to change the specs and try to still meet the september deadline with a rushed launch. Will be interesting to see.

I expect them go be very agressive on price. If they do 299 for one of the models then Sony would be forced at 399 at best, not 449 like it´s very possible right now.

It was Epic that convinced Microsoft to beef up the RAM on the 360 at the very last minute.

Of course it's possible if they've done it before.

Also the price of Kinect doesn't matter, keep in mind that Sony is also shipping a camera with every console (which will also use up a lot of that RAM).

Beefing up the same type of RAM the 360 had, just like Sony did now. Entirely different approach than redesigning your whole chip and switching memory types.

Switching over to 8GB GDDR5 will cause a delay for MS as Sony may have secured 100% supply of 4Gb chips (they are going to need as many as they can get) and since only Hynix manufacture them MS will find it tough to get enough volume to have a significant 2013 launch, even if they go US only for release.

They could opt for 16GB DDR3, but it would mean 32x 4Gb chips which is no easy task and it would add a significant amount to their mainboard complexity and BoM.

Sony seem to have been very lucky, from 2010 when PS4 development started to now GDDR5 chips have gone from 1Gb (2010) -> 2Gb (2011) -> 4Gb (2013) and holding steady at 16 chips has allowed them to go from 2GB -> 4GB -> 8GB without an increase in motherboard complexity. If MS can find a supplier for 8Gb DDR3 ram chips then it is possible, but right now 8Gb DDR3 uses all kinds of esoteric 3D stacking tech which is unproven and expensive. I think Samsung are currently selling 8Gb DDR4 but it won't be ready for consumer grade products (cheap) until 2014.

Really interesting. I wonder how much of that was Sony "upping specs" or just technology advancing and densities getting better for them. They might have done little and still gotten the spec bump because of what you said.

1. Anytime someone says "X is overkill" when it comes to home consoles they're full of shit. Everything you give a developer will be of benefit to them, any time you give them something that is easily accessible it will benefit them that much more. Doubling the unified memory pool is hugely beneficial as a result because it's a big, easy to use tool.

2. There is no caching system that substitutes for high bandwidth pipes across the board. Any attempt to even bridge the gap via a caching system eats up developer time in fine tuning and tweaking.

3. Most developers acknowledge that Sony had a ram advantage when it was expected to be 4GB of GDDR5 since the performance jump thanks to it's higher bandwidth would be more beneficial than the sheer quantity MS was offering. The quantity advantage has now disappeared and Sony's bandwidth advantage has remained the same. The "slight" edge that was generally accepted on the ram side of system design has now grown.

4. Of course it doesn't make Durango worse than it did before, it just makes the PS4 better, and in a comparison of the two the delta has grown as a result.

5. The currently rumored GPU divide is significant. 1.8 TFLOPS to 1.2 TFLOPS is not massive, but it's a meaningful gap.

6. The downside of ALL of this for MS is that they now seem to be the one using esoteric hardware. An ESRAM cache to make up for unified DDR3 requires more work for developers. A more heavily modified GPU than the standard ATi offering requires more work for developers to familiarize themselves with the capabilities and to then exploit it. Any additional hardware they might have layered in will do the same. Further, these customized tweaks add to system complexity, which directly impacts cost.

Sony has built a developer's console and it is by proxy a gamer's console. This is the result of Mark Cerny being tasked with it's design. MS doesn't appear to have someone like Cerny to do the same job for them, and executive interviews paint a company with no particular interest in doing that if they did. That is emerging as the X factor of this next generation.

And hopefully that doesn´t backfire them. They are betting on us, hardcore gamers, to be successful. It´s a dangerous bet, but i´m glad they are taking it. Reading this much "consoles are doomed iOS future" a day can shake your beliefs, but i still hope traditional gaming is still as strong as it needs to make those consoles sell 75+ million units

I'd be pretty surprised if MS changed their plans now.

Me too, seems too late for any kind of radical change.

They don't need to match Sony on anything. MS has their own plans for Next Gen and none of it has anything to do with Sony.

Mainstream is a problem. It´s pointless that i can see a great difference in the new Killzone. The regular audience is not "OMG this is sorcery" and this is a problem. The possible lack of power in Durango might not hurt them because games will look similar enough.

I remember saying here that consoles didn´t need to have 5TF GPU´s because developers wouldn´t even be able to utilize all of that. It´s the same for all next gen specs. Lots of man hours to learn how to improve.

Right now they are just scratching the surface. Durango should be fine for the first few years, even in the worst case scenario for them (5gb avaliable to games, against 7.5 of much faster RAM).

I didn't say he was full of shit, I'm saying anyone who makes the claim you quoted that 8 GB of DDR5 is "overkill" is full of shit. I'm not going to waste my time going to B3D to double check what you quoted and make sure you aren't taking it out of context.

Go take a look at industry reaction to the 8 GB of GDDR5 announcement. The foremost tech pushers (Carmack, Crytek guys, etc.) are all quite pleased with it. This is what they wanted. So why in the world would you put more stock in a quote from B3D than what the foremost professionals in this field are saying?

None of them think it's overkill. Most of them were saying that 8 GB of memory was just enough to meet their demands, and you can be sure they weren't talking about 8 GB of just DDR3. These guys are addicted to the GDDR5's bandwidth on modern graphics cards like a junkie is to crack. This is why MS is bending over backwards with their ESRAM "solution". 8 GB of GDDR5 isn't overkill, in fact I'd say for the first time in the history of the video games industry we're seeing a console that isn't being RAM starved from day one.

Exactly.

With the PS4 specs i wonder what will be a bottleneck first, if you look down the road. I´m guessing the CPU is the weakest aspect, might be the first to show it´s age 3-4 years down the road.

 

[Kai Ozu]

I'm pretty sure that they will find a way to might it slightly better. Or they will go the cheap route. And I hope Sony is not fucking bluffing with this shit, that kinda ram is great.

 

[DBT85]

Mainstream is a problem. It´s pointless that i can see a great difference in the new Killzone. The regular audience is not "OMG this is sorcery" and this is a problem. The possible lack of power in Durango might not hurt them because games will look similar enough.

I think a problem for both consoles going forward is that initially at least, people are going to assume what they are seeing is pre rendered footage rather than real time. We've already seen it on here and other GAFfers have said that friends have not believed that those Killzone/Infamous level visuals were running real time.

The market has become so used to seeing those kind of graphics in cutscenes and then being left with a far less detailed sub 720 render that there is instant dismissal of those demos being real.

 

[ramine]

Why do people think that inferior specs would put Microsoft in trouble? The Wii shipped with vastly inferior specs than its competitors, but it was more affordable and more mainstream.

Hardware will only appeal to a fraction of the user base, the hardcore gamers. This user group is shrinking.

If they can bring a competent console at a much more affordable price and to a wider audience, they can definitely win.

 

[Klocker]

So we dont know the specs but they will look the same?. Some strange logic by some.

if you think MS would plan with the developers to have games that would not be worthy of this new gen compared to the best PS4 could do (including the recent upgrade) then you would be mistaken


the multiplat games will be by and large indistinguishable to most peoples' eye.

 

[Pachterballs]

if you think MS would plan with the developers to have games that would not be worthy of this new gen compared to the best PS4 could do (including the recent upgrade) then you would be mistaken


the multiplat games will be by and large indistinguishable to most peoples' eye.

People already say that about cross gen games lol.

 

[Sothpaw]

Why do people think that inferior specs would put Microsoft in trouble? The Wii shipped with vastly inferior specs than its competitors, but it was more affordable and more mainstream.

Hardware will only appeal to a fraction of the user base, the hardcore gamers. This user group is shrinking.

If they can bring a competent console at a much more affordable price and to a wider audience, they can definitely win.

Yea about that wii userbase...

 

[Bsigg12]

At this point, I'm not putting any sort of faith behind any hardware rumors. When Sony dropped the 8gb bomb, I instantly decided that there is a good chance Microsoft has put stuff out there that isn't correct. It sounds like almost no developers knew about the 8gb from Sony so what is Microsoft have in their hand?

 

[Queen of Hunting]

alot of the rumored specs are coming from info they had last year, it may well not be up to date.... things change, but honestly ms will still be in a good postion with the ram thats rumored

 

[Maninthemirror]

Yea, just saw the prices on the gddr5 ram and read up about it. Good luck with that sony. Lol

It will be expensive for sony but so will xbox 3 for ms if they plan to ship a kinect with every console. The kinect cost will make up for the gddr5 cost sony has

 

[KidBeta]

Yea, just saw the prices on the gddr5 ram and read up about it. Good luck with that sony. Lol

Ask them about a price quote when ordering 8 million + units.

It will drop.

 

[Baconsammy]

alot of the rumored specs are coming from info they had last year, it may well not be up to date.... things change, but honestly ms will still be in a good postion with the ram thats rumored

Devs currently working on games aren't going to leak last year's specs. They're going leak what they have access to now.

 

[Reiko]

Devs currently working on games aren't going to leak last year's specs. They're going leak what they have access to now.

Ilherre specifically said the current leaks were from last year.

 

[CLEEK]

Why do people think that inferior specs would put Microsoft in trouble? The Wii shipped with vastly inferior specs than its competitors, but it was more affordable and more mainstream.

The obvious point is the Wii has first party Nintendo games, and had revolutionary motion controls. Both combined to make the system a sales phenomenon.

MS have Halo, and to a lesser degree, Gears and Forza. Hardly the same pull as Nintendo's premier games, and all three big MS franchises focus entirely at the same 'dot within a dot' core demographic.

Kinect 2 needs to bring some significant new functionality to be game changing, rather than just an incremental update.

 

[CLEEK]

Ilherre specifically said the current leaks were from last year.

And that the Xbox specs hadn't changed since then.

 

[teh_pwn]

Microsoft should go with 64 Gb just to fuck with Sony's 8 GB at a superficial level.

 

[Reiko]

And that the Xbox specs hadn't changed since then.

We'll find out soon enough

 

[MajorGravy]

What I don't get is why these consoles are going to have DDR5 ram when we are still on DDR3 RAM on PC's (not including RAM in video cards.) Did I miss something? it's like consoles skipped 2 generations of RAM. We don't even have DDR4 RAM on the market yet... (or do we?)

 

[Tallshortman]

I don't see why they need too. MS is fine with the ram they have its the same stuff normal desktops use.

If anything Microsoft will likely find itself the lead platform for console development again and Sony will need to have developers pay special attention to take advantage of any bonuses it offers.

lol what? Do you even know how x86 architecture works or are you just completely ignorant?

 

[teh_pwn]

What I don't get is why these consoles are going to have DDR5 ram when we are still on DDR3 RAM on PC's (not including RAM in video cards.) Did I miss something? it's like consoles skipped 2 generations of RAM. We don't even have DDR4 RAM on the market yet... (or do we?)

PCs are general purpose, gaming consoles are media specific. If PCs were only HTPCs, they would use GDDR5 for both system and video.

 

[mugurumakensei]

What I don't get is why these consoles are going to have DDR5 ram when we are still on DDR3 RAM on PC's (not including RAM in video cards.) Did I miss something? it's like consoles skipped 2 generations of RAM. We don't even have DDR4 RAM on the market yet... (or do we?)

What? These consoles arent using DDR5. It doesnt exist even as a specification. PS4 is using GDDR5 and 720 is using DDR3.

GDDR5 is based on DDR3 btw.

 

[Baconsammy]

Ilherre specifically said the current leaks were from last year.

Yes, and then when the latest leaks hit he decided not to say anymore. If you can give me a good reason as to why people leaking info would keep regurgitating old info instead of what they have now, I'm all ears. He also went silent when talk of No Used Games and Always Connected came up. I'm going to take that as a silent confirmation.

 

[Reiko]

Yes, and then when the latest leaks hit he decided not to say anymore. If you can give me a good reason as to why people leaking info would keep regurgitating old info instead of what they have now, I'm all ears. He also went silent when talk of No Used Games and Always Connected came up. I'm going to take that as a silent confirmation.

His knowledge of PS4 specs to GAF stopped at whatever was leaked on the PS4 roadmap.

When we were saying 2GB GDDR5 he already knew it was 4GB GDDR5.

 

[MajorGravy]

What? These consoles arent using DDR5. It doesnt exist even as a specification. PS4 is using GDDR5 and 720 is using DDR3.

GDDR5 is based on DDR3 btw.

Ah I see, so is the PS4 using GDDR5 as it's main memory modules rather than DDR3? I apologize in advance since I've never seen a system that uses GDDR5 for system RAM instead of just for the video card. Does this benefit the console more than DDR3? will PC's ever use GDDR5 as main system memory or just move on to DDR4 and leave GDDR to video cards?

 

[redhot_]

As long as it plays halo, cod and Netflix I think buyers will be happy.

Spoiler

i kid.. I kid

 

[mugurumakensei]

Ah I see, so is the PS4 using GDDR5 as it's main memory modules rather than DDR3? I apologize in advance since I've never seen a system that uses GDDR5 for system RAM instead of just for the video card. Does this benefit the console more than DDR3? will PC's ever use GDDR5 as main system memory or just move on to DDR4 and leave GDDR to video cards?

GDDR5 = higher bandwidth(good for graphics) but higher latency(bad for general computing). DDR3 = lower bandwidth ( not so good for graphics ) and lower latency ( good for general computing ).

720 also eDRAM which is good on bandwidth and latency but there is only a small amount.

 

[Karuyag]

Do xbox people actually feel threatened by PS4's 8GB GDDR5 or something!?

 

[Baconsammy]

His knowledge of PS4 specs to GAF stopped at whatever was leaked on the PS4 roadmap.

When we were saying 2GB GDDR5 he already knew it was 4GB GDDR5.

I'm just saying that there wasn't any actual hardware surprises at the PS4 event because the leaks were so good. There were some nice extra additions (the light on the controller's extra functionality, the speaker on the controller, the included headset). I see no reason to assume the leaks about Durango will be any less accurate barring a last second hardware change by Microsoft, which I doubt they'll do. It's clear they have a plan, and they'll play it out regardless of what Sony shows. You're making a mistake by concerning yourself with who is and who isnt more powerful. It doesn't matter. They're going to be incredibly close. Services, content, exclusives, controllers, online mechanisms etc are going to make the difference. It's when we line up what we have to pay extra for on PSN and XBL that we'll truly see who does and who doesn't want our money the most.

 

[Reiko]

I'm just saying that there wasn't any actual hardware surprises at the PS4 event because the leaks were so good. There were some nice extra additions (the light on the controller's extra functionality, the speaker on the controller, the included headset). I see no reason to assume the leaks about Durango will be any less accurate barring a last second hardware change by Microsoft, which I doubt they'll do. It's clear they have a plan, and they'll play it out regardless of what Sony shows. You're making a mistake by concerning yourself with who is and who isnt more powerful. It doesn't matter. They're going to be incredibly close. Services, content, exclusives, controllers, online mechanisms etc are going to make the difference. It's when we line up what we have to pay extra for on PSN and XBL that we'll truly see who does and who doesn't want our money the most.

Like I said, all the services in the world is great, but having constant lower performing multiplat versions is going to hurt their multiplatform edge from 2 gens ago.

 

[Raistlin]

Do xbox people actually feel threatened by PS4's 8GB GDDR5 or something!?

Based on this and a number of similar threads created since the conference ... what do you think?

 

[MajorGravy]

GDDR5 = higher bandwidth(good for graphics) but higher latency(bad for general computing). DDR3 = lower bandwidth ( not so good for graphics ) and lower latency ( good for general computing ).

720 also eDRAM which is good on bandwidth and latency but there is only a small amount.

Thanks for explaining the differences.

 

[Dash Kappei]

Not that I endorse AT ALL the possiblity Sony lied about the 8GB of DDR5 RAM but...

Well, they did say that PS3 would have 3 Ethernet ports. And that was just ports.

Ports are quiet different than actual specs that developers are using to develop their games with though.

remember what was promised at E3 (launch date, price...):

Nope. Not talking about the 3 ethernet ports:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aKPYICmj7AQ&feature=youtu.be&t=2m16s

 

[BadAss2961]

Switching from DDR3 to GDDR5 isn't an overnight change. Production will be delayed since a new type of memory requires a switch to a whole new motherboard.

The whole architecture changes.

MS is not gonna let Sony come out with the PS4 before the Durango.

Yeah... I imagine Sony's upgrade to 8GB/GDDR5 not only being a competitive move, but partly baiting MS into revisions that would delay their release.

I agree though that I doubt they'll bite.

 

[Magic Pancake]

Not that I endorse AT ALL the possiblity Sony lied about the 8GB of DDR5 RAM but...






remember what was promised at E3 (launch date, price...):

Nope. Not talking about the 3 ethernet ports:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aKPYICmj7AQ&feature=youtu.be&t=2m16s

I've never gotten it, what exactly was the point of three ethernet cables supposed to be? I use two monitors on my desktop, so even though it wouldn't exactly be practical to have two TVs I can see a use for two HDMIs, but what would extra ethernet ports do? Were you supposed to have redundant internet connections or something? Daisychain a couple of PS3s together (wouldn't the bandwidth on an RJ45 cable not be enough for that to be meaningful)?

It always seemed to me to be completely and utterly pointless.

ETA: On topic, what's the price difference by keeping with DDR3? Maybe MS decided that most people wouldn't notice or care for the difference and try to undercut the PS4.

 

[BuggyDClown]

Do xbox people actually feel threatened by PS4's 8GB GDDR5 or something!?

Threatened no? Doubtful that I can avoid spending a ton of money and get just one of the two consoles this time around, fuck yes. I rarely touch my PS3, I wanted to go full Xbox next time around, with this probable great dev support I will need both systems, since my friends will all be on on the Xbox and not the PS4.

 

[Piggus]

Is 16GB DDR3 comparable to 8GB GDDR5? I'm curious.

No.

I can't belive people are even suggesting they use that much DDR3. It's a complete waste of money.

8 GBs of GDDR5 = a deliciois and filling New York steak

8 GBs of DDR3 = a small bucket of chicken from KFC. Filling, but not premium like the steak.

16 GBs of DDR3 = a huuuuuge bucket of KFC chicken. Way too much for you to eat. Why did buy that much chicken, ya dingus? You'll never be able to eat all that. What a waste!

 

[Liquid_Bike]

Until the systems ship nothing is certain. Both sides are liable to exaggerate. Don't believe their lies.

 

[xxracerxx]

Threatened no? Doubtful that I can avoid spending a ton of money and get just one of the two consoles this time around, fuck yes. I rarely touch my PS3, I wanted to go full Xbox next time around, with this probable great dev support I will need both systems, since my friends will all be on on the Xbox and not the PS4.

You could try and get your friends to go PS4 only ;p

 

[BuggyDClown]

You could try and get your friends to go PS4 only ;p

lol never going to happen.

Also to be honest, I really dislike the controllers for all sony consoles. It's part of why I don't play my PS3 much.

 

[Takuya]

If they try to adjust anything that may change the architecture of their machine this late in the development cycle, I fear for RROD v.2.

 

[UberTag]

lol never going to happen.

Also to be honest, I really dislike the controllers for all sony consoles. It's part of why I don't play my PS3 much.

Perhaps you'll like the new DualShock 4. It has a light on it that changes colors. That's cool, right?

As for this thread, I sort of like the idea of Sony playing dirty and effectively entrapping Microsoft with a memory deficiency while knowing they were locked into a timetable with no margin for error. It's not like they can compete on a level playing field budget-wise so they've got to exploit any angle they have available to compete.

If that's how this whole thing went down, good on Sony for pulling it off.

 

[Reiko]

If they try to adjust anything that may change the architecture of their machine this late in the development cycle, I fear for RROD v.2.

Go big or go home.

 

[xxracerxx]

lol never going to happen.

Also to be honest, I really dislike the controllers for all sony consoles. It's part of why I don't play my PS3 much.

The new controller seems to really take people's complaints into consideration.

 

[Calavera520]

sony might be lying

what? are you serious? I really don't think you understand how this works. They presented this at a press conference, Wall Street Journal, Bloomberg etc etc reported the stats of the new console already. shareholders wouldn't take kindly to lies. Fake a trailer, sure, but fake the technical specs for a machine that is already so far along in the process that it's impossible to change, no.

 

[KidBeta]

Go big or go home.

Yep. Go big (changing stuff) launch next year, go home after being behind a year.

 

[jstripes]

I've never gotten it, what exactly was the point of three ethernet cables supposed to be?

The PS3 substituting as a router?

Hook-up a couple of other PS3s and share an internet connection?

(Guess they didn't realize most people has routers in their home at the time.)

 

[madmackem]

Like I said, all the services in the world is great, but having constant lower performing multiplat versions is going to hurt their multiplatform edge from 2 gens ago.

I think people have an insular look on things too, im betting alot of people who post are from the usa, the usa gets a live service unlike the rest of the world. The service isnt anywhere near as good in eu, bar the uk where we get pretty close to usa in services the rest of eu gets a rough deal. I think people tend to forget how badly the 360 sells in japan and the rest of the eu to, again bar the uk. Alot of sweeping statements by people who dont seem to take into account anything outside of the usa.

 

[Brad Grenz]

I've never gotten it, what exactly was the point of three ethernet cables supposed to be? I use two monitors on my desktop, so even though it wouldn't exactly be practical to have two TVs I can see a use for two HDMIs, but what would extra ethernet ports do? Were you supposed to have redundant internet connections or something? Daisychain a couple of PS3s together (wouldn't the bandwidth on an RJ45 cable not be enough for that to be meaningful)?

It always seemed to me to be completely and utterly pointless.

ETA: On topic, what's the price difference by keeping with DDR3? Maybe MS decided that most people wouldn't notice or care for the difference and try to undercut the PS4.

I believe the idea was to allow the PS3 to act like a wireless bridge for any other wired-only devices you might have had in your entertainment center. Back in 2005 wifi wasn't considered a default option (see the 360) so it would have been useful to get other things online (like a 360, or old school TiVo or HTPC). It's not surprising it was cost reduced out.

 

[Mrbob]

Like I said, all the services in the world is great, but having constant lower performing multiplat versions is going to hurt their multiplatform edge from 2 gens ago.

You better not watch the upcoming next Xbox unveil then.

I'm pretty sure it's going to be focused a lot on services and partnerships. I really don't think they care about being the best system for gamers anymore.