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CBC: Free trade between provinces? That would be anarchy: Neil Macdonald

Mr.Mike

Member
Free trade between provinces? That would be anarchy: Neil Macdonald

Canadians, after all, can't be allowed to just run around Canada willy-nilly, buying whatever they want

If you're on vacation abroad somewhere this summer and find yourself explaining to people over dinner what makes Canada so unique and special, use the story about Gerard Comeau and his beer run back in 2012. There is no more Canadian story than that.

Comeau is a Canadian who, looking for the best bargain he could, drove to a Canadian town a few miles from his home in Canada, bought 14 cases of beer and three bottles of liquor from Canadian beer and liquor stores, then returned to his home. In Canada.

A squad of plainclothes Mounties with binoculars, it turned out, had him under surveillance, according to his lawyer. On his way home from the Canadian town to his Canadian home, he was intercepted and handed a ticket for $292.50 by uniformed Canadian officers who then seized all the alcohol he'd purchased.

His Canadian crime: his beer run had crossed one of Canada's internal borders. He'd driven from New Brunswick into Quebec. As far as New Brunswick was concerned, that made him a smuggler.

Sixteen other people were charged that day in the same sting operation, but Comeau had more spine than most and fought the ticket. Some smart lawyers from Ontario and Western Canada got involved, and – my god, I love it when things like this happen – he won.

A New Brunswick judge ruled that the province's law against importing alcohol from other provinces violated the Constitution Act, Sec. 121, which states: All Articles of the Growth, Produce, or Manufacture of any one of the Provinces shall, from and after the Union, be admitted free into each of the other Provinces.

The ruling shocked New Brunswick and most of the other provinces, which consider Sec. 121 to be one of the most horrible and un-Canadian sentences in the Canadian Constitution, something that should be ignored at all costs.

...

But it isn't just alcohol. It's our whole system. Modern Canada is built on protectionism. And not just our high wall of taxes and tariffs and duties and sneaky little bureaucratic barriers at our international borders, but a whole cadre of other rules impeding trade and labour and commerce between our provinces, and even our municipalities.

Canadians probably don't realize it, and might not even care if they did, but they are told every day what they are allowed to buy, and how much they have to pay, and where they can work and where they can't.

Our interprovincial trade barriers, as they are known, are ridiculous. I asked Daniel Schwanen, an expert on the subject at the C.D. Howe Institute, if there is any economic good in them:

"No. The answer is no."

Our web of protectionism makes it difficult for the federal government to negotiate with other countries. It costs Canadian businesses the chance to participate in the nearly trillion-dollars of U.S. government business created to fight the economic disaster in 2009. Tit for tat and all that.

Politicians will sheepishly admit the foolishness of these barriers, if pressed. In fact, a few years ago, the provinces got together to discuss and just recently, they bravely produced something called – wait for this – the Canadian Free Trade Agreement. That we would even need such a thing is nuts.

Think about that title. Canadians need an official treaty to trade freely with each other. Except, of course, we don't trade freely at all.

"It's a joke," says Schwisberg, who is relishing his chance at the Supreme Court this December. "Again, follow the money. Eighty per cent of the market is excluded in that agreement."

Needless to say, alcohol is exempted.

Any Canadian who wants to do business in any province must still register separately in that province, hire a representative, pay a fee and submit paperwork. Regulations on, for example, trucking, are not harmonized.

Protectionist unions see to it that workers from one province cannot cross over and work in another. An Ontario doctor's prescription will almost certainly be rejected in a Quebec pharmacy.

And of course government-overseen cartels called marketing boards set prices we pay for dairy, poultry and maple syrup.

Municipalities tell you what taxis you can or cannot summon to your home.

...

Ah, the Comeau case. Schwisberg says it could change everything – knock down all the barriers — and it might. It depends on how willing the high justices are to upend our entrenched statism.

The provinces will point to a 1921 case in which the Canadian high court of the day ruled that Sec. 121 really only means goods can move between provinces "free of duty."

Schwisberg will argue that in fact, the British House of Lords, which passed the British North America Act in 1867, explicitly rejected a draft using the term "of duty," and chose instead the untrammeled word "free."

He's right, and he has expert research to back him up. The trial judge in New Brunswick was persuaded. So, evidently, was the province's court of appeals.

But the real question to be decided by the Supremes is whether free trade is un-Canadian. And that's another matter.

In this respect the EU is maybe more of a country than Canada.

We should probably unify our regulators and regulations. Stuff like having a federal securities regulators instead of this.
 

jstripes

Banned
It's kinda fucked up how the company I previously worked with could freely do business in the US, but not in other provinces.
 

Man God

Non-Canon Member
Yep, it's a dirty little secret. Trade has been freer between the US and Mexico than it has with the Provinces since the signing of NAFTA.
 

Mimosa97

Member
Canadian bureaucracy is the worst. And people just sheepishly accept the status quo that his holding our economy back. It's also holding us back as a nation.

I have 0 hope that anything will change in the near future though.
 

Mr.Mike

Member
It's also something that disproportionately hurts small businesses trying to expand across provincial lines. For large businesses it's probably not really that big of a deal, but the extra work is a non-trivial if you're a small business.

It wouldn't be a huge leap forward economically, but fixing these trade barriers is something that would boost the economy at least a little bit with a fair amount of certainty. And compared to other ways we might try to boost the economy it wouldn't really cost a meaningful amount, and would probably save money in the long run by having various provincial regulators be merged into a single federal regulator.

But it's not really something sexy that would be a major focus of a political platform, although every party might have a line about it somewhere in their platforms.
 

Haly

One day I realized that sadness is just another word for not enough coffee.
Why does this nonsense even exist?
 

jstripes

Banned
It's also something that disproportionately hurts small businesses trying to expand across provincial lines. For large businesses it's probably not really that big of a deal, but the extra work is a non-trivial if you're a small business.

It wouldn't be a huge leap forward economically, but fixing these trade barriers is something that would boost the economy at least a little bit with a fair amount of certainty. And compared to other ways we might try to boost the economy it wouldn't really cost a meaningful amount, and would probably save money in the long run by having various provincial regulators be merged into a single federal regulator.

But it's not really something sexy that would be a major focus of a political platform, although every party might have a line about it somewhere in their platforms.

Most of our provinces are so absolutely massive that it's geographically uncommon for small businesses to do business outside of their borders. It would be much more a noticeable problem in the US, with its 50 smaller states.
 

Quixzlizx

Member
Most of our provinces are so absolutely massive that it's geographically uncommon for small businesses to do business outside of their borders. It would be much more a noticeable problem in the US, with its 50 smaller states.

These trade barriers don't apply to e-commerce?
 

Mimosa97

Member
I had no idea that Canada had restrictions on internal trade, as an American with free and total interstate commerce, that's nuts.

There are a lot of things in Canada that are backwards as fuck.

Also lobbies have all the power here. You just need to take a look at the state of most of our industries. Same old companies have been enjoying a total monopoly for decades.
 

kirblar

Member
Good lord this is dumb. Free commerce and people movement between states (each does have their own individual regs, of course) is a basic tent of the US. The concept of not having them within a country is insane to us here.
 
How else are the provinces supposed to protect their jobs for workers. Non-economists have been telling free trade is only good for the fat cats!
 

Fuchsdh

Member
There are a lot of things in Canada that are backwards as fuck.

Also lobbies have all the power here. You just need to take a look at the state of most of our industries. Same old companies have been enjoying a total monopoly for decades.

Well, you could argue that's a serious problem in most western countries. But yeah, this is the first I've heard of Canadian protectionism, and it's backwards as hell.

Weirdly enough though thanks to the legacy of Prohibition US liquor laws and corporate policies are kind of weird too. There's a three-tier system where brewers and distributors can't own each other or certain retailers; it's impossible to completely vertically integrate. So probably one of the reasons the beer industry has so many players is that there's lots of money and it's actually pretty hard to muscle out competition.
 

Kthulhu

Member
I had no idea that Canada had restrictions on internal trade, as an American with free and total interstate commerce, that's nuts.

Yeah, total culture shock going on for me right now.

There are a lot of things in Canada that are backwards as fuck.

Also lobbies have all the power here. You just need to take a look at the state of most of our industries. Same old companies have been enjoying a total monopoly for decades.

That's not too different from the US lol.
 

jstripes

Banned
Well, you could argue that's a serious problem in most western countries. But yeah, this is the first I've heard of Canadian protectionism, and it's backwards as hell.

Weirdly enough though thanks to the legacy of Prohibition US liquor laws and corporate policies are kind of weird too. There's a three-tier system where brewers and distributors can't own each other or certain retailers; it's impossible to completely vertically integrate. So probably one of the reasons the beer industry has so many players is that there's lots of money and it's actually pretty hard to muscle out competition.

Not in Ontario.

The Beer Store, formerly known as Brewer's Retail, a retail chain owned by a consortium of major breweries, held a monopoly on beer sales for decades.

It's like a fucking Soviet experience shopping there. Unless it's one of the small selection of beers they have on display, you have to ask for it at the counter and it's brought to you from the back. (It's a way of controlling mindshare.) I prefer buying my beer at the LCBO, where you can pick it yourself.

Fortunately the Liberals have been modernizing beer and liquor sales the last few years, and now select supermarkets carry beer, wine, and cider.
 

Joeku

Member
Not in Ontario.

The Beer Store, formerly known as Brewer's Retail, a retail chain owned by a consortium of major breweries, held a monopoly on beer sales for decades.

It's like a fucking Soviet experience shopping there. Unless it's one of the small selection of beers they have on display, you have to ask for it at the counter and it's brought to you from the back. (It's a way of controlling mindshare.) I prefer buying my beer at the LCBO, where you can pick it yourself, and the clientele is less trashy.

Fortunately the Liberals have been modernizing beer and liquor sales the last few years, and now select supermarkets carry beer, wine, and cider.

At least around the GTA, most Beer Stores have walk-in coolers at this point. Most that I've been to, anyway.
 

jstripes

Banned
At least around the GTA, most Beer Stores have walk-in coolers at this point. Most that I've been to, anyway.

None of the ones I know of in Scarborough do. They just have that small display case.

The Beer Store has been doing a weird back and forth on that for a long time now. About 15 years ago the Oakville locations were renovated to have a walk-in cooler, and not 5 years later they were re-renovated back to the Soviet style.
 

Joeku

Member
None of the ones I know of in Scarborough do. They just have that small display case.

The Beer Store has been doing a weird back and forth on that for a long time now. About 15 years ago the Oakville locations were renovated to have a walk-in cooler, and not 5 years later they were re-renovated back to the Soviet style.

Let me get more specific then: in Durham, where there's a lot more space to spare, the Beer stores have been expanding enough to have the walk-in cooler. I wonder how much of a consideration theft is.
 

jstripes

Banned
Let me get more specific then: in Durham, where there's a lot more space to spare, the Beer stores have been expanding enough to have the walk-in cooler. I wonder how much of a consideration theft is.

If it's not a problem for the LCBO, then why is it a problem for the Beer Store? Is it because of the clientele?
 

Mr.Mike

Member
Good lord this is dumb. Free commerce and people movement between states (each does have their own individual regs, of course) is a basic tent of the US. The concept of not having them within a country is insane to us here.

Is Canada even a real country?
 
Not in Ontario.

The Beer Store, formerly known as Brewer's Retail, a retail chain owned by a consortium of major breweries, held a monopoly on beer sales for decades.

It's like a fucking Soviet experience shopping there. Unless it's one of the small selection of beers they have on display, you have to ask for it at the counter and it's brought to you from the back. (It's a way of controlling mindshare.) I prefer buying my beer at the LCBO, where you can pick it yourself.

Fortunately the Liberals have been modernizing beer and liquor sales the last few years, and now select supermarkets carry beer, wine, and cider.

Well, some states have state-run monopolistic liquor stores out there, on the theory that they should regulate the price of such dangerous a good, and on the theory that the government should profit from the sale in order to pay for programs to counteract the massive externalities.
 

jstripes

Banned
Well, some states have state-run monopolistic liquor stores out there, on the theory that they should regulate the price of such dangerous a good, and on the theory that the government should profit from the sale in order to pay for programs to counteract the massive externalities.

Ontario's system was split down the middle. The major breweries had a monopoly on sale of beer (The Beer Store), and the government had a monopoly on the sale of liquor and wine (LCBO.)

Beer eventually made it into the LCBO, with certain restrictions negotiated by the breweries (only singles and six packs), and privately-owned wine stores found a loophole to operate under. The Beer Store, essentially foreign-owned at this point, recently opened itself up to Ontario craft breweries, which had found a healthy niche at the LCBO. Then last year select supermarkets were allowed into the game.

Interesting fact: The LCBO is the largest single buyer of alcohol in the entire world.
 

Mr.Mike

Member
Fucking dumb. I wonder how much they are losing on this. Probably lots.

Between $50 billion and $130 billion of GDP according to a Senate report from last year. So maybe this is a much bigger deal than I though in my previous post.

https://sencanada.ca/en/newsroom/go...rriers-to-free-canada-s-economy-senators-say/

Mind-boggling rules, dueling bureaucracies and maddening regulations are estimated currently to sap billions of dollars from the Canadian economy each year, the Senate Committee on Banking, Trade and Commerce has found.

Senators released an extensive report on internal barriers to trade called Tear Down These Walls: Dismantling Canada’s Internal Trade Barriers today in the context of Canadian Importers and Exporters Association’s (I.E.Canada’s) 85th annual conference.

The federal government must make removing these barriers a priority, the committee concluded — if the government fails to act, the cost to Canada’s gross domestic product could range between $50 billion to $130 billion.

Reducing internal barriers to trade is particularly important now. The United States — Canada’s biggest trading partner — is soon to elect a new president who might be less receptive to trade with Canada. Moreover, the ramifications of the United Kingdom’s possible exit from the European Union are unclear. Making trade within Canada easier will provide a measure of insurance against potential hits to international trade.

Federal, provincial and territorial governments have also allowed internal barriers to trade to persist. The committee urges co-operation between all levels of government to reduce the significant costs these barriers impose on Canadian consumers, businesses and workers. The federal government is in the best position to lead on this issue, the committee said.

The deadline for a comprehensive renewal of the Agreement on Internal Trade – which is intended to promote the free movement of people, goods and services, and investment within Canada – lapsed in March 2016, and no new deadline has been announced. Senators urge federal, provincial and territorial governments to renew the agreement as soon as possible and certainly before Canada’s 150th birthday next July and make recommendations for improvements to the agreement. Failing a timely and effective renewed agreement, the Senators further recommend that the federal government pursue a reference to the Supreme Court of Canada on the subject.

Did you know that…
  • Unpasteurized products made in Quebec cannot be shipped outside of the province.
  • Beer bottle size standards differ across jurisdictions. For example, Garrison Brewing produces beer in Nova Scotia, which has bottle size standards that differ from those in Newfoundland and Labrador; consequently, to sell in the latter province, Garrison Brewing would have to establish a separate production system.
  • Weight limits on certain truck tires differ across jurisdictions, with the result that some truck drivers must change their tires when crossing certain provincial/territorial borders.
 
Wait so Canadians can't buy and sell across their own country without permits for each part? Is that what they are saying? That seems.... Backwards.
 

Terrell

Member
These protections are going to be difficult to untangle. For instance, tobacco and liquor are subject to hidden taxes that are different in each province, and those taxes fund each province's individual health programs. So even if this goes forward, certain items will continue to be exempt due to their taxation status.

These taxation issues are what prevented this from happening sooner and was the provinces' solution to the issue that plagues California as an example, who often pay more taxes than they see a benefit from those taxes.

There's a solution to the problem, but it'll be exceptionally painful.

Huh. As a Canadian I had no idea.
As a British Columbian why would I go to other provinces anyway ;p
As someone who left BC, you're living in a fantasy world. But enjoy continuing to flush all your money into housing expenses.
 

Mr.Mike

Member
Taxes on things you're trying to reduce usage of got health reasons being an excellent way to fund healthcare. Besides, sin taxes don't seem to really be that large a part of Ontario's revenue base anyway, and I'd imagine most provinces are similar.

http://www.fin.gov.on.ca/en/budget/ontariobudgets/2017/ch6b.html#ch6b12

I'm sure a federal sin tax with revenue transferred to provinces could be arranged. In any case, the bigger problem is the various regulations that differ between provinces and seem to serve only to make doing business harder.
 

SRG01

Member
Taxes on things you're trying to reduce usage of got health reasons being an excellent way to fund healthcare. Besides, sin taxes don't seem to really be that large a part of Ontario's revenue base anyway, and I'd imagine most provinces are similar.

http://www.fin.gov.on.ca/en/budget/ontariobudgets/2017/ch6b.html#ch6b12

I'm sure a federal sin tax with revenue transferred to provinces could be arranged. In any case, the bigger problem is the various regulations that differ between provinces and seem to serve only to make doing business harder.

Ugh, then provinces will complain about transfer payments yet again.
 

oneils

Member
It's probably part of the deal that came with confederacy. In Ontario we have like 4 different school systems each with their own bureaucracies. It's kind of a waste.
 
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