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[olimario]

JMTC... I don't think the President lied, but it would be nice to hear an apology on behalf of the U.S. government for (however unintentionally) misleading the public. That's obviously not going to happen, though, as that would be an enormous boost to the Democrats in an election year.

Here's an attempt at an analogy. Plenty of people in this thread are referencing things that they only know because of news reports. If it turned out that the news reports were incorrect, I wouldn't dig up this thread and say "Ha! You're all LIARS!"... but I would blame the media for shoddy work. In a similar way, I blame the agencies of various governments for being so sure that finding WMD in Iraq was a "slam dunk".

Great post.

 

[J2 Cool]

Moore's a joke. A complete anti-everything. The kinda guy who would do everything different in the most immature ways. He argues like a little kid jumping on every leverage no matter how stupid it is

 

[FightyF]

A war fought to remove a brutal dictator and weapons of mass destruction reliable intelligence says Iraq has is a justified war. Do you expect our president to ignore that much 'realiable' intelligence when it deals with things as severe as WMDs?

The assertion that Iraq had WMDs was NOT based on reliable intelligence.

You seem to have trouble grasping this easy concept.

Don't you even stop to think why other countries were not convinced by the "evidence" Powell attempted to pass off as fact? Don't you stop to think that the many nations that assist the US on it's war on terror had the right idea that this whole war was balony?

If not, take this time to stop and think.

TPO is ignoring me?
"My zeal wears me out, for my enemies ignore your words."

 

[HAOHMARU]

American troops don't have a choice...do you know how many we have in Canada just so that they can avoid serving in the Army?

Hey Fight for Freeform, what fucking war are we talking about? Vietnam or the war in Iraq?

Soldiers aren't entirely there of their own free will....they sign up for service but they can't exactly just opt-out of Iraq if they don't wanna go or have some kind of objection to it. Not that the army should be run democratically, but a lot of the people that get into it are not really that educated or informed about what's going on....they just have a trust that their leaders will do the right thing, and some people feel that trust has been betrayed.

Yes they can. It is called conscientious objector, and there were cases right as the war first started.

Now, originally the military thought they were there for the right reasons. However, since the WMD thing became false morale for the troops has gone down the toilet. That doesn't mean they are going to give up over there. They are fighting for each other and nothing else right now.

And I know you say the military shouldn't be a democracy, but just hear me out. You can't have a military if it is run like a democracy. It would never work. Militaries are built like a dictatorship and this is the only true way they can function properly.

If anything, the troops that get out of the military will be the next generation of political leaders. Hopefully this experience will make them better. Learn from our mistakes...because history is doomed to repeat itself.

 

[olimario]

The assertion that Iraq had WMDs was NOT based on reliable intelligence.

You seem to have trouble grasping this easy concept.

You’ve got three separate investigations plus the president of Russia all saying… British intelligence, US intelligence, Russian intelligence, told the president there were weapons of mass destruction

I see no mention of my good friend, Colin, here. Just other previously reliable information sources.

 

[border]

Yeah, especially when libs (and I'm sorry, but it is 99.9% liberals) are bitching that 9/11 happened because Bush didn't pay enough attention to intelligence reports.

Doing something about those pre-9/11 reports wouldn't have required endless billions of dollars and resulted in tons of dead US soldiers. When evidence is uncertain and circumstantial, you have to take into account what the costs will be if you are wrong. If you tighten air security and nothing happens, you're not going to lose a ton of money, no soldiers' lives, and "most importantly", you're not going to lose an election over it. Iraq will undoubtedly cost millions for Americans, and possibly cost Bush the presidency.

 

[FightyF]

Hey Fight for Freeform, what fucking war are we talking about? Vietnam or the war in Iraq?

The war in Iraq.

If you've bothered to read this thread, to read the interview, wouldn't be asking such a trivial question.

Yes they can. It is called conscientious objector, and there were cases right as the war first started.

We have a similar option in Canada, but that doesn't explain all the Americans coming up to Canada to avoid serving the Army. Now they cannot even visit the States.

Now, originally the military thought they were there for the right reasons. However, since the WMD thing became false morale for the troops has gone down the toilet. That doesn't mean they are going to give up over there. They are fighting for each other and nothing else right now.

And I know you say the military shouldn't be a democracy, but just hear me out. You can't have a military if it is run like a democracy. It would never work. Militaries are built like a dictatorship and this is the only true way they can function properly.

If anything, the troops that get out of the military will be the next generation of political leaders. Hopefully this experience will make them better. Learn from our mistakes...because history is doomed to repeat itself.

 

[Willco]

Ugh. This thread sucks now. Much like the interview transcript. Time to abort!

 

[FightyF]

I see no mention of my good friend, Colin, here. Just other previously reliable information sources.

Hmm...you are more uneducated on the issue as I previously thought.

I guess you didn't know that the British intelligence was shown to be forged, did you?

Secondly, Powell was supposed to summarize ALL of these findings to show the UN SC how Saddam broke UN resolutions. Take all of those "credible" sources and information, and you have Powell's report, which did not show the rest of the World anything concrete, along with unreasonable assertions. Coupled with the fact that the Inspectors were following all these leads and found nothing, should have pushed the US to debate the issue more.

You aren't taking into account that the Pentagon wanted to invade before Fall of that year, and that the timing of the war wouldn't allow for proper debate.

Oli, if you really thought that Saddam had WMDs...what made you think that we should not give the inspectors more time to find them? Whatever happened to innocent until proven guilty? Oh yes, that's right, democracy and the American judicial system has to be thrown out the window when we don't like it...

 

[HAOHMARU]

We have a similar option in Canada, but that doesn't explain all the Americans coming up to Canada to avoid serving the Army. Now they cannot even visit the States.

Oh my god. Yea, Americans are fucking fleaing the country to get out of going to Iraq. :ROLLEYES:

In other news, the U.S. government is pulling social security numbers 123-43-1234 thorugh 987-45-2345 for the draft. BURN YOUR DRAFT CARDS. DODGE THE DRAFT! LEAVE THE COUNTRY AND GO TO CANADA!!!! Viva la r3voluiton! DRILL BUSH, NOT OIL! Hug trees, baby seals and unborn fetuses for the love of baby Jesus and Alah!

 

[The Promised One]

Ugh. This thread sucks now. Much like the interview transcript. Time to abort!

*hands Willco a parachute, puts one on as well, and jumps out with him*

 

[mjq jazz bar]

Moore's a joke. A complete anti-everything. The kinda guy who would do everything different in the most immature ways. He argues like a little kid jumping on every leverage no matter how stupid it is

What? Stick to threads about cartoons and babes givin' you mad head, Rudy.

 

[element]

The president didn't lie

It was 'misinformation' right? I'm going to use that one next time I go to a strip club or look at a girl walking down the street when I'm with my girlfriend. 'No baby, it was just misinformation'

the soldiers are there of their own free will.

many soldiers signed up for free education, too see the world, not to die for their country. These kids are poor and can't afford to do those things. If they do sign up, and then get assigned to Iraq and say 'I'm not going.', they end up going to jail. Not much 'free will' in there.

 

[FightyF]

Instead of making yourself looking like a complete assclown Hoahmaru, you could have at least searched google.

Look, I even did it for you!

http://www.google.com/search?q=amer...eid=firefox&start=0&start=0&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8

I asked you to explain it, and you couldn't. This isn't the first time you've made an assertion, was asked to explain it, and then couldn't...

 

[olimario]

It was 'misinformation' right? I'm going to use that one next time I go to a strip club or look at a girl walking down the street when I'm with my girlfriend. 'No baby, it was just misinformation'
many soldiers signed up for free education, too see the world, not to die for their country. These kids are poor and can't afford to do those things. If they do sign up, and then get assigned to Iraq and say 'I'm not going.', they end up going to jail. Not much 'free will' in there.

Your first hypothetical is absurb. What misinforfuckingmation would you have had in that situation? Did you have reliable sources telling you that the girl walking down the street was in fact, contrary to your belief, your girlfriend? Did your information tell you that your girlfriend wouldn't care?
Terrible example.

They have complete and total choice. Being poor doesn't mean being forced into the army. They know what could potentially happen to them if they join and they do.

 

[HAOHMARU]

So how many soldiers are up in Canada then?

You said Americans...like they were dodging military service and fleaing in droves. The one article I read had 2 deserters. That is nothing new in the military. There are people in the Navy who desert all the time because they don't want to go on that 6-9 month deployment. Americans aren't going to Canada in droves like you make it seem.

And I'll tell you what, I hope those fuckers come back down here so they can be thrown in federal prison. They should have done things the right way and they could have. I would like to take a look at thier service records and past evaluations. I gurantee that more than not wanting to go to Iraq was the reason they deserted.

 

[MIMIC]

Your first hypothetical is absurb. What misinforfuckingmation would you have had in that situation? Did you have reliable sources telling you that the girl walking down the street was in fact, contrary to your belief, your girlfriend? Did your information tell you that your girlfriend wouldn't care?
Terrible example.

They have complete and total choice. Being poor doesn't mean being forced into the army. They know what could potentially happen to them if they join and they do.

Those fucking army recruiters are rough. They'll convince uneducated teens to sign their lives away.

They ALWAYS hounded me. I fucking HATED them.

 

[mjq jazz bar]

Those fucking army recruiters are rough. They'll convince uneducated teens to sign their lives away.

They ALWAYS hounded me. I fucking HATED them.

Me too.

The Marines would call me a bunch.

"What sort of major are you looking into?"

"Umm, maybe English or something. Yeah, I'm pretty interested in that."

"Well, if you join the Marines, you'll be given the resolve and the wisdom needed to become an English major, and maybe even a successful writer!"

AD NAUSEAM

 

[border]

That's right, you shouldn't feel sorry for dead soldiers (even ones who were sacrificed for false reasons) because they chose to join the army, and "They know what could potentially happen". It's okay for commanders to make mistakes and lead us into stupid wars because apparently that's what every single soldier expected too....they knew what they were getting into. =\

 

[element]

They have complete and total choice. Being poor doesn't mean being forced into the army. They know what could potentially happen to them if they join and they do.

Military is pretty much the only option for most of the poor youth today. They give all types of crap on how 'just one weekend a month' and 'you need a college education, unless you want to work at Wendy's the rest of your life'.

The pressure these recuriters put on young, impressionable, men and women today really give them the impression that they have no other options.

"What sort of major are you looking into?"

"Umm, maybe English or something. Yeah, I'm pretty interested in that."

"Well, if you join the Marines, you'll be given the resolve and the wisdom needed to become an English major, and maybe even a successful writer!"

They do the same thing in F9/11.

'what do you want to do?'
'make music.'
'do you know shaggy? he was in the military. if you join perhaps we can help you with your music career.'

bullshit. they will have you scrub toliets and go shoot kids before they lift a finger on helping some guys music career.

 

[border]

And yeah, if you've ever dealt with the super-pushy armed services recruiters, you would probably be able to see how people can wind up in those situations. They harp on about how you get to fly all over the world for free and get great job training. It sounds like some vocational summer camp.

Those fuckers will not leave you alone. If you stop answering the phone, they will come to your house. It's always this really nasty "high-pressure sale" procedure where they're always asking highly presumptive/persuasive questions like, "Let's go ahead and get you signed up?"

 

[HAOHMARU]

many soldiers signed up for free education, too see the world, not to die for their country. These kids are poor and can't afford to do those things. If they do sign up, and then get assigned to Iraq and say 'I'm not going.', they end up going to jail. Not much 'free will' in there.

Yes, military members signed up for many different reasons, BUT they all know that one day they might get called to make a sacrifice. Wether that is as little as giving up 2 weeks a year and one weekend a month, something greater by deploying overseas for a year or the ultimate sacrifce of giving their lives. They all know this before VOLUNTEERING. That is the potential price that they pay in order to reap the benefits that are offered.

And you are right. Once you are in the military you have very little "free will." You are told when to get up, when to eat, how the dress, how to groom yourself ect. That is the way the military lifestyle is. Again, the people that join know this before they come in. Those that do not like it get out of the military...either that or they are weeded out naturally.

 

[Dilbert]

Yeah, especially when libs (and I'm sorry, but it is 99.9% liberals) are bitching that 9/11 happened because Bush didn't pay enough attention to intelligence reports.

Damned if you do, damned if you don't, I guess.

Shouldn't his "liberal complaints until ban" counter be dropped by one now?

 

[J2 Cool]

M: Bill, if I made a mistake and I said something or did something as a result of my mistake but it resulted in the death of your child, how would you feel towards me?

O: It depends on whether the mistake was unintentional

M: No, not intentional, it was a mistake

O: Then if it was an unintentional mistake I cannot hold you morally responsible for that

M: Really, I’m driving down the road and I hit your child and your child is dead

O: If it were unintentional and you weren’t impaired or anything like that

M: So that’s all it is, if it was alcohol, even though it was a mistake – how would you feel towards me

See, anything to get an advantage for Michael Moore. How does alcohol even come into play here? He's just trying to drive home a point O'reilly already defended any way he can.

M: Would you sacrifice—just finish on this. Would you sacrifice your child to remove one of the other 30 brutal dictators on this planet?

O: Depends what the circumstances were.

M: You would sacrifice your child?

O: I would sacrifice myself—I’m not talking for any children—to remove the Taliban. Would you?

M: Uh huh.

Then he has this "would you sacrifice your kid" kick that nobody can answer. You cant make that choice. A kid of 18 can though. Bill said he would sacrifice himself. Thats the only decision you should be able to control, yourself. Any kind of war or change in this country comes with sacrifice. To play on the parents of the children is to just attack the most sympathizing role. Thats war. There is no way around it. All you can ask is that the people who are fighting for us believe in this. It's their choice to make and nobody can take that away from them. Their choice has a definite effect on family and friends but the only ultimate decision on this is the soldier's. Michael Moore's voice on it means nothing. Its false empowerment to the parents who believe they can still control their kids who can make adult decisions on their own at this age.

O: Alright, you would not have removed the Taliban. You would not have removed that government?

M: No, unless it is a threat to us.

O: Any government? Hitler, in Germany, not a threat to us the beginning but over there executing people all day long—you would have let him go?

M: That’s not true. Hitler with Japan, attacked the United States.

O: Before—from 33-until 41 he wasn’t an imminent threat to the United States.

M: There’s a lot of things we should have done.

O: You wouldn’t have removed him.

M: I wouldn’t have even allowed him to come to power.

O: That was a preemption from Michael Moore—you would have invaded.

M: If we’d done our job, you want to get into to talking about what happened before WWI, woah, I’m trying to stop this war right now.

O: I know you are but—

M: Are you against that? Stopping this war?

O: No we cannot leave Iraq right now, we have to—

M: So you would sacrifice your child to secure Fallujah? I want to hear you say that.

O: I would sacrifice myself—

M: Your child—Its Bush sending the children there.

O: I would sacrifice myself.

M: You and I don’t go to war, because we’re too old—

O: Because if we back down, there will be more deaths and you know it.

M: Say ‘I Bill O’Reilly would sacrifice my child to secure Fallujah’

O: I’m not going to say what you say, you’re a, that’s ridiculous

M: You don’t believe that. Why should Bush sacrifice the children of people across America for this?

He completely contradicts himself here. He wouldnt attack a country not of imminent threat yet he would stop Hitler. How, WWI. This, in a war where America simply benifited and played a marginal role only to return to nuetrality after 1918. Right. Then a bail out of asking O'Reilly if he wants to stop this war. Questioning. Taking the pressure off him. Caling Bill out that he's against stopping this. Then back to the sympathetic "parents of america" where he gets people behind him.

M:--that’s how you, let me ask you this question.

O: One more.

M: How do you deliver democracy to a country? You don’t do it down the barrel of a gun. That’s not how you deliver it.

O: You give the people some kind of self-determination, which they never would have had under Saddam—

M: Why didn’t they rise up?

O: Because they couldn’t, it was a Gestapo-led place where they got their heads cut off—

M: well that’s true in many countries throughout the world__

O: It is, it’s a shame—

M:--and you know what people have done, they’ve risen up. You can do it in a number of ways . You can do it our way through a violent revolution, which we won, the French did it that way. You can do it by boycotting South Africa, they overthrew the dictator there. There’s many ways—

Delivering Democracy through the barrel of a gun is wrong. Delivering a dictator through the barrel of a gun must be wrong also right. But let the people rise up. Have those parents have their children's heads blown off with even less a choice. Tell them to rise up or have it continue. What an answer. Sure, he didnt and couldnt say it but thats what the situation is

 

[Cloudy]

Ben Affleck was just on and he held his own pretty good. Then again, O'Reilly didn't go all psycho on him like he usually does to guests who he doesn't agree with lol

 

[HAOHMARU]

Yeah ok people...lets everybody blame the military recruiters and the military itself. They are the real problem.

I will admit, some of those recruiters are like sharks in a pool of small fish. They have quotas to meet every month. IMO, they are just as bad as used car salesmen.

But even still. Somebody said that only poor kids sign up and are easy prey for recruiters. Well, these kids have a better life by joining the military. They are offered all of these benefits, places in the world to go ect. But again, that is all with the undrelying point that they might one day be asked to give the ultimate sacrifice.

I know for a fact that these kids are better off for joining the military. What are their friends from back home doing right now? Most have probably not even left town. Some might be in jail. Others are probably invovled with drugs.

Joining the military is a great thing to do with ones life.

 

[impirius]

Well, Countdown isn't airing tonight ( ), so I'm watching O'Reilly. The interview with Affleck was actually good! I'm impressed so far.

 

[Piecake]

actually the severly harsh penaties that were levied against Germany from the Treaty of Versailles made Germany to go into a very deep depression. It was from that Depression that Hitler rose to power because he started blaming people for their problems.

Maybe that was the prevention Micheal Moore was talking about? Actually listening to Woodrow Wilson, and not forcing Germany to pay astronomical reperations for the war.

or maybe im just way off base, and misunderstood what was being talked about. Who knows

 

[border]

I'm still not getting it....because they knew there was a possibility that they might die, it doesn't matter that they died in a war fueled by false information? It doesn't matter that they trusted their superiors not to err? We don't have any responsiblity to them or their families because no one forced them to sign on a dotted line?

 

[Sirpopopop]

The case for WMD wasn't "slam dunk" before the war. When a significant number of the public (including myself and many people on this board) are able to easily question the presence of WMD in Iraq... that means it's not a slam dunk. Before the war, the case the administration presented was based entirely upon conjecture, and questionable information that wasn't confirmed, and there were quite a few UN inspectors who doubted the presence of WMD within Iraq.

C'mon people, the administration's case was faulty before the war, before all this information on the CIA's fuckups came out.

 

[border]

Yeah ok people...lets everybody blame the military recruiters and the military itself. They are the real problem.

The point that some people are trying to make is just that the army doesn't market itself with the reality of war, it markets itself as something different (travel/college/job training). Death is probably in the back of the mind of anyone joining, but I think it's not fair to say that everybody knew what they were getting into.....or that they weren't pressured at all.

 

[Slurpy]

Some people are still defending this fucking war and the information?

*mind blows*

Good luck to humanity.

 

[SKluck]

Then he has this "would you sacrifice your kid" kick that nobody can answer. You cant make that choice. A kid of 18 can though. Bill said he would sacrifice himself. Thats the only decision you should be able to control, yourself. Any kind of war or change in this country comes with sacrifice. To play on the parents of the children is to just attack the most sympathizing role. Thats war. There is no way around it. All you can ask is that the people who are fighting for us believe in this. It's their choice to make and nobody can take that away from them. Their choice has a definite effect on family and friends but the only ultimate decision on this is the soldier's. Michael Moore's voice on it means nothing. Its false empowerment to the parents who believe they can still control their kids who can make adult decisions on their own at this age.

This is my biggest problem with Moore. NO ONE can send their kid to the military or to fight in a war. It is every person's individual choice. There was NO draft, every single person in the military is there because they signed the dotted line. No one was forced. They knew the risks of being in the military.

In his 9/11 movie, he goes around asking senators to sign up their kids for military service. WHAT?! No parent can do this, it doesn't even make sense. How anyone came out of that movie NOT saying "What the fuck was he thinking with that stunt?" is beyond me.

If there was a draft, he might have a point, but there was not.

 

[HAOHMARU]

I'm still not getting it....because they knew there was a possibility that they might die, it doesn't matter that they died in a war fueled by false information?

It does matter...I never said it didn't. The leaders of this country sent our troops to war because they originally thought it was the right thing to do. Hind sight is 20-20.

It doesn't matter that they trusted their superiors not to err?

Again, yes it does matter. I never said it didn't. However the leaders made the mistake of sending the troops to war for what they thought was the right reason. That doesn't mean that they should just fucking give up over there. They were sent in to take out the Iraqi regime. Mission accomplished. We as a country can not half ass this war in Iraq right now. If we pull out now there will only be more deaths in the future.

We don't have any responsiblity to them or their families because no one forced them to sign on a dotted line?

I never said that the goverment shouldn't be responsible for the military members or their families. They should be held responsible and accountable. All of the families that have lost loved ones are being taken care of from the military's standpoint. What the goverment owes them is not up to me. If that means electing new people in office that is what needs to be done.

 

[JoshuaJSlone]

See, anything to get an advantage for Michael Moore. How does alcohol even come into play here? He's just trying to drive home a point O'reilly already defended any way he can.

I believe the analogy is supposed to be that Bush using information that most of the rest of the world didn't see as satisfactory, makes him as responsible as a drunk driver who didn't MEAN to get in an accident.

He completely contradicts himself here. He wouldnt attack a country not of imminent threat yet he would stop Hitler. How, WWI. This, in a war where America simply benifited and played a marginal role only to return to nuetrality after 1918. Right.

Well, a lot of the reason Germany ended up the way it was with Hitler and eventually World War II was because of Germany's shitty situation after World War I. If we'd known then what we do now, there probably could've been some peaceful preventative.

Delivering Democracy through the barrel of a gun is wrong. Delivering a dictator through the barrel of a gun must be wrong also right. But let the people rise up. Have those parents have their children's heads blown off with even less a choice. Tell them to rise up or have it continue. What an answer. Sure, he didnt and couldnt say it but thats what the situation is

There's no great solution to this problem. But we can't take upon ourselves the job of trying to force democracy upon every country. Wouldn't it work a lot better anywhere if it was clear this was an initiative the populace wanted going on? No need to win their hearts and minds. Regardless, though, it was the claims of weapons that were supposed to make a preemptive strike necessary; humanitarian reasons are the backup.

 

[PartlyCloudlike]

This is my biggest problem with Moore. NO ONE can send their kid to the military or to fight in a war. It is every person's individual choice. There was NO draft, every single person in the military is there because they signed the dotted line. No one was forced. They knew the risks of being in the military.

In his 9/11 movie, he goes around asking senators to sign up their kids for military service. WHAT?! No parent can do this, it doesn't even make sense. How anyone came out of that movie NOT saying "What the fuck was he thinking with that stunt?" is beyond me.

If there was a draft, he might have a point, but there was not.

I thought Moore was trying to say that since these senators have no problem in sending children of other parents to a war they claim to believe in (granted they are already in the military), they shouldn't have any trouble sending their own children to war since its a war they believe is right. That's how I perceived it.

 

[element]

But again, that is all with the undrelying point that they might one day be asked to give the ultimate sacrifice.

Well like any car salesman, they aren't going to tell you the bad things about serving in the military and that is something they don't really tell to people they try to recruit. They don't really tell them they are going to be away from their familes and possiblity die.
Especially with a cause that so many of them don't understand. WWII it was pretty much your duty to serve, because there was a true threat to the US. Many of todays soldiers grew up in an age without any threats to the US and see the military as a means to an end, not as a duty.

 

[border]

Well I suppose we are on the same page. I was getting weird vibe (mostly from Olimario) that our leaders' mistakes are somehow acceptable because soldiers choose to join the army.

 

[HAOHMARU]

they aren't going to tell you the bad things about serving in the military and that is something they don't really tell to people they try to recruit. They don't really tell them they are going to be away from their familes and possiblity die.

Honestly, if that was all they talked about they wouldn't recruit anybody.

Hey, the military isn't for everyone. People in the military have that option to get out. If it wasn't what they expected when they first got in they leave.

And if people are joining the military without realizing they might die somebody is not doing their job. Everybody knows this coming in. Do you think the military is recruting people that are on cloud 9 or something?

Again, I will restate the fact that joining the military is one of the greatest things somebody can do for themselves. Especially if they are coming from an under priviledged household.

Many of todays soldiers grew up in an age without any threats to the US and see the military as a means to an end, not as a duty.

When have we been in an age without any threats? I must have missed that portion in history. And I fucking gurantee that once people get in the military they feel it is their duty. Those benefits might be a great reason for somebody to join, but duty is the bottom line. That is all the military talks about: duty, honor, currage and commitment.

 

[Ristamar]

Soldiers aren't entirely there of their own free will....they sign up for service but they can't exactly just opt-out of Iraq if they don't wanna go or have some kind of objection to it. Not that the army should be run democratically, but a lot of the people that get into it are not really that educated or informed about what's going on....they just have a trust that their leaders will do the right thing, and some people feel that trust has been betrayed.

The president LIED based on BAD INFORMATION. The president was at fault. The intelligence sources were at fault. Perhaps even congress was at fault. What we have here was just a massive failure of government. The president needs to apologize, but so do a lot of other people. Some already have, but others refuse to give up their position lest it destroy their precious little political image.

Those quotes pretty much reflect my view on the matter...

 

[Makura]

i don't see any ownage...

IAWTP

No ownage here IMO. Moore would rather maintain his view of the world than face the facts O'Rielly presents him with.

 

[FightyF]

Some people are still defending this fucking war and the information?

*mind blows*

Good luck to humanity.

That's a great way to put it.

But the only ones really defending Bush are the ones who know little about the situation (eg. Oli thinking that British intelligence was actually solid, when during the time it was given it was found to be faked). And Hoahmaru who didn't know about the Americans leaving for Canada to avoid service. In time, I hope, these people will be educated on the issues.

Hopefully this analogy will help (for people like Oli)...imagine yourself being accussed of possessing drugs and it's considered a crime. The first accusation comes from the Police Chief himself. Sources to the police tell the police that they have evidence.

One of which is that you had this little rice capsule you stuck up your butt. Police medical staff question that evidence, since they feel it would melt due to the heat of your scrotum. Ok, this is getting sick, but I have to demonstrate a point, in fact, all this talk of scrotum would make this understandable to people like TPO.

Anyways, because of these sources, the police issue a search warrent. So the police search your home, your car, and everything they can think of. During the searches, it was found that one of the sources made up the whole story about you having drugs. Despite that, the searches continue. The Chief is still adament that you have these drugs, and rather than allowing more searches to continue, decides to arrest you.

So your home is ransacked, and you are held in prison. While in prison, it is found that you did not have any drugs. You are let go.

Of course, this would not occur in the US prior to the Patriot Act. And I think you'd agree that in this hypothetical situation, what the Police did was wrong. In the same way, I feel that what Bush did was wrong.

You can try to bring up Saddam's history, but that is besides the point, that doesn't change the process of disarming a nation as per treaty. There are many other WORSE dictators, and in Sudan right now the UN estimates that 50,000 people have died. And this is just recently, not 20 years ago.

At the very least, you have to admit that Bush owes Americans an apology. Even based on the assumption that he was screwed by his intelligence agencies, he should apologize. To deny that goes beyond and below the line of human decency.

If I wronged YOU, despite having good intentions and doing so based on false information, I would still apologize. If I heard that your dad was planning to hijack a plane, and then I killed him, and then found out that my decision was based on false information, I'd apologize. No question.

currage

ROFL, sorry I just found that funny.

 

[Drinky Crow]

The comment about "sending your children to war" isn't referring to the soldiers, monkeys, it's referring to the ADMINISTRATION sending the soldiers into war. Moore isn't blaming the soldiers. He's aware that they're doing their duty. He's blaming the crooked administration that treats their service with such cavalier self-interest as to risk their lives based on half-baked neocon realpolitik theories.

Geezus.

 

[bionic77]

WTF? Reliable intelligence? Anyone with half a brain said that they were lying from the getgo. I personally took a lot of shit from my friends because I said Bush was lying about the war and the intel was bogus oh and guess what, it was totally bogus. Half the damn world wanted MORE evidence even though Cheney and his gang made up their mind in 2001 that Iraq needed to be taken out, hell Wolfowitz has been saying this shit for over 10 years. I guess it is too much to expect people to open their damn eyes.

 

[Makura]

I thought Moore was trying to say that since these senators have no problem in sending children of other parents to a war they claim to believe in (granted they are already in the military), they shouldn't have any trouble sending their own children to war since its a war they believe is right. That's how I perceived it.

Then why didn't he pose that question directly to them instead of using some asinine stunt that proves nothing?

 

[Makura]

Here's an attempt at an analogy. Plenty of people in this thread are referencing things that they only know because of news reports. If it turned out that the news reports were incorrect, I wouldn't dig up this thread and say "Ha! You're all LIARS!"... but I would blame the media for shoddy work. In a similar way, I blame the agencies of various governments for being so sure that finding WMD in Iraq was a "slam dunk".

Well put. Bravo.

 

[HAOHMARU]

And Hoahmaru who didn't know about the Americans leaving for Canada to avoid service.

Again, deserting from the military is nothing new. I've covered that. It sounded to me like you were trying to say that the civilian population was going to Canada to avoid military service. If you said military members have deserted to avoid going to Iraq I would have agreed with you.

Oh, the rest of that post of yours? Um...yea, ok buddy. I'm right with you on that one...haha.

ROFL, sorry I just found that funny.

You probably would find something like that funny. I'm just sorry that you will never understand it.

 

[Sirpopopop]

The comment about "ending your children to war" isn't referring to the soldiers, monkeys, it's referring to the ADMINISTRATION sending the soldiers into war. Moore isn't blaming the soldiers. He's aware that they're doing their duty. He's blaming the crooked administration that treats their service with such cavalier self-interest as to risk their lives based on half-baked neocon realpolitik theories.

Geezus.

Hey Makura - Is this quote from Drinky Crow, also well put?

 

[JoshuaJSlone]

Then why didn't he pose that question directly to them instead of using some asinine stunt that proves nothing?

Because it got the same point across without being longass and boring.

 

[pestul]

I think it's time for the Bush Administration to appologize to the UN..