BackLogJoe
Member
NoRéN;235531225 said:
We still want Al Gore to go away and Kerry did go away to the extent he could.
Clinton: 'I was on the way to winning' until Comey, Russia intervened
- Thread starter chubigans
- Start date
We still want Al Gore to go away and Kerry did go away to the extent he could.
Psychoward
Banned
We do? Gore is spreading global warming awareness like wildfire and Kerry worked as the fucking Secretary of State, that's not going away lol.
"Such a fight" = lost in the first month + a few days?
"Such a fight" = lost in a landslide?
It wasn't a close primary. Hillary effectively had it locked up on March 15th and transitioned to the general election, but Sanders stuck around to raise and spend a $100,000,000+ to no meaningful improvement against Hillary.
Vincent Alexander
Member
Being married to the President makes you establishment? I thought giving the speeches to wall street is what got her pegged more than anything.
Lol
Hillary crushed Bernie by almost 4 million votes. That wasn't a fight, the damn primaries were effectively over in March.
And yeah Ted Cruz and Marco Rubio are jokes, but the point is they were establishment politicians and the best the Republican party had to offer, and Trump crushed them too. Trump SHOULD have been a joke candidate, but he wasn't. He tapped into a strong current of hate in this country and beat everyone. That doesn't absolve Hillary of the responsibility of her loss, but she's not the only one who lost to Trump.
Arrogant Bastard
Banned
And yet, a self acclaimed Democrat who supported Hillary Clinton beat them all. Trump didn't win because it was a dumpster fire, Trump won because he gave the deplorable base of the Republican party exactly what they wanted to hear after eight years of a black POTUS daring to hold the White House. I'm not trying to be an ass, even though I know that is the way this is coming across. Get to know a Trump voter, it has shit all to do with economics and that dumpster fire you are talking about.
Again as a Bernie voter, the fight is over exaggerated. The reason it holds for us is because he didn't give up, even when he knew it was over. The shit was damn near a landslide.
Give it a glance
But... uh... he didn't though. She kicked his ass.
King Tubby
Member
It's relative to expectations. Who the hell would've predicted Sanders to get over 40% of the vote running against Hillary in the primaries?
The Republican field being a dumpster fire was absolutely a huge part of why Trump won. He ended up offering something that stood out against a sea of unremarkable career politicians. Why do you even think there were over a dozen candidates in the first place, they were all weak.
Massive Duck. C.M.
Banned
We have to stop letting people off the hook because they can't perceive reality properly
Prof. Bathtub
Member
Nothing in this is about Sanders. In fact, the only reason he'd be brought up is if you agreed with the Sanders-wing attacks that were quickly co-opted by Trump, and are defending wikileaks' insinuations as valid, if not lawfully attained.
thecouncil
Banned
I saw a woman who voted for Trump link to this article on Twitter and write "Get over it woman". I couldn't help but laugh at the irony. Hillary has to get over the election.
BackLogJoe
Member
The Al Gore thing was a joke. Kerry didnt harp on about the election. I dont even remember Gore going on about the election, either, even though if anyone had the right to be a sore loser it would have been him.
can't tell if sarcastic
Psychoward
Banned
She gives one interview about the election while also maintaining that she was one of the reasons she lost = harping on about the election? Really now?
And I think between Russia, the FBI and winning the popular vote she also has a reason to be a sore loser just like Gore.
Arrogant Bastard
Banned
What did he offer that was so set out, other than he dropped the PC filter and went straight for the deplorable base?
You are missing the point. It is amazing what happens regards to % of vote when you refuse to quit in a two-way race, even after you know that you are going to lose.
Read the article. Basically his % would have been MUCH less if he had dropped out when other candidates did; i.e. when he knew it was impossible to win...but he stayed in, which I'm glad he did. Thus driving up his % by massive margins.
Adam_Vania
Banned
yes lol the person who voted for the Iraq War and Patriot Act is anti-establishment of course she is
Arrogant Bastard
Banned
She was, up until Comey. You really cannot deny that.
Vincent Alexander
Member
It feels weird...hindsight makes it seem so obvious that she was at risk of losing. I'm thinking "duh, of course he has a chance." But I also know that honestly, I thought Trump had less than a snowball's chance in hell of winning back in November. Hindsight is a bitch because it makes it so hard to think clearly about what it was like in 2016, what I knew then, compared to what I know now.
King Tubby
Member
I'm not arguing against that point, I'm simply pointing out that his success in the Republican primaries was largely a result of opportunism, taking advantage of yet another incredibly weak Republican field of candidates.
My point is that he still overperformed any reasonable expectations that anyone would've had about his primary candidacy against the presumed juggernaut that Hillary Clinton was among Democrats.
Even without Comey it was a far closer race than it should've been by any measure.
I wondered about the Obama - Trump matchup this week after week the "economics anxieties drove the obama->Trump voters" thread. Wouldn't the same people who feel like Obama has been shitty for them make the same decision?
Anyway we'll never know. I agree with people that (in retrospect) the "how could you loose to such a shitty candidate" arguments are bull now. Trump's a sexist, racist, dumb ass bigot, but he was never a weak candidate except on paper. I STILL can't believe so many Republicans lined up to vote for he man. My opinion of them was already low, and yet they somehow keep pushing it lower.
Cow Mengde
Banned
Dude, everyone predicted a landslide victory, not a small marginal lead.
I'm too tire to dig through the threads, but everyone and their mom was saying Hillary would win and Trump has less than 0% chance of winning. I can see a last minute interference could lower her votes, but not lose to Trump.
TestOfTide
Banned
No. that would be Carter.
because what we want to see is change after such a massive and stupid defeat
Hillary and the DNC cannot change how Russia and the FBI behave in a future election, so it is imbecile to keep complaining about that. it won't change anything. if anything, it only makes Russia want to keep influencing on American elections because: a) it works and b) it makes the democrats look stupid after that
what they can do is see how to appeal to the voters that Trump captured, and how Hillary failed them, and how the campaign was so epically misguided that it came down to a few percentages swayed by a stupid letter from the FBI. it should not have come down to that in the first fucking place
blaming Russia and Comey will just lose another election. the rust belt does not want to hear about russian hackers! it wants to hear about fixing their own economy. it doesn't want to hear that america is already great
because just whining about Russia ain't gonna win votes in 2018 and 2020 because Hillary was already doing that in the 2016 election and it already did not work
congratulations on doubling down on defeat
at least have the decency to admit that Hillary is lying by saying she takes "absolute responsability" and then blaming external parties. at least understand how words work
I'm pretty sure that's not what I'm saying. I would say that Hillary had thr momentum from the beginning and lost it towards the end due to her own mistakes and Bernie had trouble gaining momentum in the beginning due to his own mistakes. But please don't lump me in with the hard line anti Clinton crowd. While I dislike her and her policies I'm not going to shit on her and those who voted for her.
Psychoward
Banned
Hillary isn't running in 2018 or 2020
also instead of appealing to the laughable Trump voters how about they appeal to the 47% of America that didn't vote, many of whom lean left? The ones who are actually not huge Trump supporters and voted for him will have realized they fucked up by then anyway, and if they don't regret voting for him, pandering to them is a lost cause. Sure you may flip a few but it's not worth dedicating your strategy to them.
Arrogant Bastard
Banned
It really wasn't a weak field, but that is rather subjective.
No offense, did you read the article? It was clear as glass that Bernie wasn't going to be able to win, yet he stayed in.
I love Bernie, I am exceptionally progressive. With that said, there seems to be a need to state that he did an immaculate job against the juggernaut of Clinton to some how increase his standing. Why?
It would have been close regardless. 40% of the country votes along party lines. It doesn't matter if you put up Trump or Neo-Hitler.
I think we are confusing EC vs PV. It also wasn't a last minute interference, the Comey letter was simply the straw.
They absolutely didn't after Comey. Polls tightened and the real effect of Comey's letter wasn't actually seen.
You do realize polls are a snapshot of a singular time, right? They give an idea if the election were held that day, but they can't predict the future and how people might chang their votes. They also have margin of error on top of that.
Trump never had "less than 0% chance of winning." That's obviously hyperbole.
Do people not understand math? If I tell you there's a 3% chance of something happening and it happens that doesn't make what I said wrong. It means we landed in the 3%....
Not McGovern? Though I guess his humiliating defeat looks better nowadays considering the up-hill battle he had.
Cow Mengde
Banned
I play Fire Emblem. I know what 3% means.
I was being hyperbolic, but to say it was just a single snapshot is also bullshit. Right up to election day we predicted a landslide victory for Hillary.
JesseEwiak
Member
Ron Paul got 40% of the vote against Romney in a late primary because he was the only one running. Bernie won the votes of people who wanted a candidate "less liberal" than Hillary.
Yes, there was a base of support for Bernie. There was also a anti-Hillary vote that disregarded ideology. That's not even getting to the part that despite this supposed monstrous wave for Bernie, turnout was down compared to the 2008 primaries.
Arrogant Bastard
Banned
King Tubby
Member
I'm not trying to cape for Bernie here, I'm acknowledging that he never had much of a shot in the first place. I'm saying that getting so many votes against someone with Clinton's stature was not expected by anyone, even without dropping out early.
I really disagree with this. Hillary had clear deficiencies as a candidate that, along with Russian meddling, poor campaign strategy, and Comey's letter, added up to her narrow defeat. She (and the Republican primary candidates before her) had to have those deficiencies for someone as disliked as Trump to sniff the presidency. He had the tremendous fortune to run against poor opponents.
You're only supporting what I'm arguing. I'm talking about the lack of enthusiasm for Hillary.
You know who had no delusions about this being a close race?
Minority voters.
And you wanna know why?
Because America is a country full of hateful and scared people.
And nobody knows that better than minorities.
If you were a black man who knew from history the dog whistles Trump was using, and knew from stories from your grandparents what the applause he was getting meant, you knew what was happening.
If you were a latino parent now afraid to send your kids to school because they were being taunted by ignorant white kids shouting "Build the Wall!" at them, you knew what was happening.
So lets stop saying that Trump was a weak candidate and should have been easy to beat. That lets this country off the fucking hook, and I and a lot of people were under no such delusions. Anybody paying attention to the Republican primaries, and the hate he was stirring up, and the establishment candidates he was utterly steamrolling, knew he was going to be formidable going into the general.
sturgboski
Member
I mean she says that as well, but of course the cherry picked quote to anger everyone is the the "I would have gotten away with it if it werent for those meddling kids quotes."
And you can tell it worked by people like you, the OP and others going "get over it its all your fault" or the even better "why didnt you come and personally sit down with me, I would have voted for you if you did" crowd.
The election hinged on a small percent change in the electoral college, which means we can place blame on both everything and nothing. It's pretty obvious that without Comey / hacking her lead would not have dropped beneath the threshold, but it's also pretty obvious that she could have survived what is likely the most damaging and bullshit "October" Surprise in American history had her campaign not made a bunch of unforced errors and strategic mistakes. And ultimately, she would have already had at least one term as President had she not made the calculation to vote for and support the Iraq war (sorry Obama). For all the love Biden gets on PoliGaf it's about 99% personality-driven and 1% his strength as an actual candidate. He literally wrote the law that Clinton got attacked as racist for vocalizing support of after it passed, and unlike the Clintons he still supports it. He's also widely known for his own gaffes and is extremely combative, I don't see him faring much better vs trump as any of the other candidates he essentially rolled over in the primaries, or better than Hillary outside of the fact that he might have faced some other September Surprise (Hillary's was literally nothing but it was enough to bump her down a few percentage points, making enough difference for an electoral loss). Overall though what chafes me are folks opportunistically taking the loss to vindicate their own desire to reshape the Democratic party without having to go through the process of actually winning elections themselves, which seems extremely fucked up when it's not like it was a close call. Fuck that. WIN ELECTIONS, then we can reshape the party in your winning image. Until then it's two losing factions yelling at each other about who is slightly less of a loser.
Polls in some of the contested rust belt states absolutely tightened up to within the margin of error within the last week or so of the race. In the beginning of October that's when the landslides were predicted. Everything went belly up after that. Just look at Pennsylvania for instance
The electoral college also makes the difference between a "landslide" and a close race somewhat of an odd distinction. Had she won a couple hundred thousand votes in specific places we may be calling this election a landslide in her favor since she'd have the popular vote by quite a bit and the electoral college by a pretty good amount, too.
I read it. I wasn't saying that it was all her fault. I agree with you. I was more responding to where the discussion had gone but whatever I was vague.
Nobody plans or operates on a "3% chance" of something happening. If the weather guy says that there's a "3% chance of a flash flood," and you get stuck in the rain, you're not going to go, "Well, the weather guy wasn't wrong."
For all intents and purposes, yeah....they were wrong. And a lot of people got fired (and lost tons of credibility) for being "not wrong," as you say.
King Tubby
Member
I'm a minority voter, and I didn't have "delusions" about this being a close race so much as fear that the Democrats were going to find some way to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory yet again. Trump was not a "formidable" candidate. He was a different, boisterous candidate that appealed to a lot of hateful, ignorant fucks but also a lot of ignorant fucks who were hungry to vote for someone who wasn't the same old shit. He was, and still is, deeply unpopular. The only way the election could even be so close with him in the race is if he were running against others who were also deeply unpopular, and that's exactly what happened. I maintained then as I do now that Hillary would've gotten steamrolled by any halfway decent Republican candidate; I think Mitt Romney, absent the stink of losing in 2012, would've absolutely crushed her. That she ran against Trump made her chances better, not worse.
Arrogant Bastard
Banned
He wouldn't have garnered those votes at all if he had dropped out early like every other candidate man. That is the entire point. TBH this isn't the thread and I don't see any reason to continue this line of discussion. Its all good man. /fist
You really disagree with what, I don't think there is much to deny. 40% of the country votes straight up R/D regardless if the the fucker is Trump or Sanders. I'm a Democrat, I pull D against an R every time. It's party politics, but the D and R stand for something.
Sure, but we're not actually talking about 3%. Most places had Trump at 25-30% chance. If the weather guy says there's a 30% chance of rain I usually think it might fucking rain. Especially not going to call the weather guy wrong if he says there's a 30% chance of rain and it'll be 67 degrees and it was 67 degrees with some rain. In this case national polling predicted pretty well Hillary's actual margin. Where they failed to predict was the electoral college and that's because it's a bit of an odd system that can cascade depending on what sates tip just over the scales or some slight over performance, etc.
The 3% shit was like a month or two beforehand. If the weather guy tells you what it's going to do a month beforehand and you don't listen to his forecast the day before then that's on you.
TestOfTide
Banned
Carter assumed he was going to win against Reagan, then managed to not only lose, but lose in nearly every single state.
eBay Huckster
Member
Let me tell you something about hazard mitigation planning, a thing that we literally have an entire federal agency devoted to doing.
thecouncil
Banned
I still think Hillary's got this. Y'all acting like this is your first election.
And_Gignac
Member
She isnt charismatic. Qualifications are useless without charisma, as Trump proved.
Nerds are not popular outside of the democratic base it seems.
Thank God dems have Bernie and Joe for 2020!
Psychoward
Banned
They're not gonna run, and if they do they'll be way too fucking old and lose in the GE.
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