Men_in_Boxes
Snake Oil Salesman
Time-stamped...
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Colin Moriarty says "There is nothing to learn from the success of Helldivers 2."
- Thread starter Men_in_Boxes
- Start date
James Sawyer Ford
Member
Colin is a bit of a dope who loves to hear himself talk
Sign up for his patreon while he sips on his ecig on the podcast, in deep thought
Sign up for his patreon while he sips on his ecig on the podcast, in deep thought
Diseased Yak
Member
ChorizoPicozo
Member
i dunno, he is always right.
What The Fox
Neo Member
That quote leaves out a lot of the context. He's talking more about cloning or replicating Helldivers, and if one can reliably tap into the zeitgeist of gaming culture. Also mentioning that yes you could say "just make a great game" paraphrasing.
If you keep listening, Chris also disagrees with him and adds a different perspective (I happen to agree with Chris here btw).
All in all a fairly nuanced conversation between them...?
If you keep listening, Chris also disagrees with him and adds a different perspective (I happen to agree with Chris here btw).
All in all a fairly nuanced conversation between them...?
tommib
Banned
What is this disgustingly serpentine attempt to bring context and nuance to a thread? Gross.
HerjansEagleFeeder
Member
How does that saying go? Intelligent people learn from everything and everyone...?
rm082e
Member
I get what he's saying - if every company could just predict what will be a big hit and what won't, then they'd all have big hits and few average performers or failures. People can look at Helldivers 2 (or any other successful game) after it came out and backfill reasons why it was successful, but that's armchair quarterbacking. The list of developers who've consistently predicted what will be a winning formula in the design phase over a long period of time is pretty short.
HD2 is neat, but I don't think anyone was expecting the level of success it's achieved when it was announced. Same with BG3 last year, or Hogwarts Legacy. Hell, I'm still confused by Minecraft being the biggest game ever...
HD2 is neat, but I don't think anyone was expecting the level of success it's achieved when it was announced. Same with BG3 last year, or Hogwarts Legacy. Hell, I'm still confused by Minecraft being the biggest game ever...
LordOcidax
Member
I remember when he said that the Switch had -zero chance of success
.
thicc_girls_are_teh_best
Member
I remember when he said that the Switch had -zero chance of success
TBF a lot of people were saying that before it launched, not just him. And that was Nintendo coming off the Wii U AND folding the 3DS's successor (dedicated handheld) into the Wii U's successor (home console), creating a hybrid.
It seemed at the time like Nintendo were dropping the portable market while not having a "real" home console successor, so yeah a lot of folks thought it was DOA. Then the reveal happened, then the early sales and then BOTW & Mario Odyssey.
The rest is history.
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Bumblebeetuna
Member
Yep a lot of people didn’t know what they were talking about and were very wrong, including Colin.
Wildebeest
Member
Being wrong while being part of the herd is a worse character trait than going out on a limb and being wrong. That said, being wrong on a prediction or commentary is nothing. What really is bad is being wrong on the facts while acting like you know something for sure.
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LordofAllThatIsEvil
Member
Hard to take him seriously before. But this is all-time stupid. Ignore him.
LordOcidax
Member
Especially this forum.
Gamer_By_Proxy
Member
Make a high quality PvE with great gameplay and ongoing content already ready to go in case it takes off. That'll give you enough time to prepare for the rest in case it does take off. That's whats there to learn.
Dr. Wilkinson
Member
Time-stamped...
Did you not watch it, or did you not understand what he was trying to explain? Like, did you not grasp his point? I'm just trying to understand why this is something controversial that needs a thread to be made about it.
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CoreyFlawless
Member
Yes and no. Like i believe we have enough PvP shooters and stuff. But like, pve co-op shooter. Not really, D1 and D2 show there ppl that want that. Which have kinda fall down some. So helldivers come in just in time. Believe there could be 1 or maybe 2 more good PVE game. Heck someone could figure out a cool pvpve one too I’m sure. There ppl that love pve coop.
thicc_girls_are_teh_best
Member
I don't remember how Colin was talking about the Switch before release, probably because I didn't pay attention to their content at the time. But I assume there was probably some degree of snide on his part.
Don't even want to image what people like Micheal Pachter were saying
Men_in_Boxes
Snake Oil Salesman
I think it's an example of blatant ignorance about the universe and gaming in general.
The idea that there's nothing to learn from one of the biggest success stories in PlayStations 30 year history is Idiocracy level dumb.
HisExcellency
Neo Member
It always surprises me how many people can have strong opinions of things they clearly haven't experienced for themselves. It's so easy to tell who actually listened to the context of this conversation and who just read this title and commented.
Dr. Wilkinson
Member
I think you’re perhaps over-selling the success of Helldivers a bit. It’s been doing really great. But compared to what? Sony’s had like no success in GaaS until now.
And again, if you watch it he does make some saliant points. Not every successful game necessarily demands a sea-change in how videogames as a concept are created. Or necessitates a reinvention of live-service games.
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Men_in_Boxes
Snake Oil Salesman
Colin actually jumps between two main points.
1. There's nothing to learn from Helldivers 2.
2. You can't copy it and see the same success.
Point #1, which he states 3 specific times, is brain dead stupid.
Point #2 is fair. No one has issue with that.
Dr. Wilkinson
Member
The Helldivers 2 developers got caught in a perfect storm. A pretty good one. They don’t come around very often. The developers and PlayStation certainly didn’t set out to make the year’s most successful live multiplayer game. It just happened. The reason it happened is at least partially because they set out to make a great game that they wanted to make, without deliberately setting out to make a massively popular record-breaking game. I mean if anyone tries to mimic it, they’ll fail. It’s a once-in-a-lifetime type situation. And there was no predicting it. Just like there’s no predicting the next big thing that’ll come some time after this and captivate the industry’s imagination for a period of time.
How many moments are there like this in the history of the videogame industry?
Super Mario Bros
Sonic
Pokemon
Halo
StarCraft
Grand Theft Auto III
League of Legends
Call of Duty
Fortnite
Breath of the Wild
Like what do any of them have in common? Nothing, except no one saw it coming and it just happened and they caught on. None of those teams knew while they were making one of those games that they would be multi-million sellers and define new types of games or create new genres. They just had a unique idea and saw it through. It’s amazing thought in it’s simplicity.
Like what else is there to learn from it? He’s right
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James Sawyer Ford
Member
There’s a lot to learn from HD2
1. Make a very fun and appealing game
2. Don’t monetize it to hell and back
3. Don’t charge $70 for an MP only experience
Yes I think that is a replicable strategy for success. Getting #1 right is hard
Sony could easily have success with this strategy if they brought back Killzone MP
1. Make a very fun and appealing game
2. Don’t monetize it to hell and back
3. Don’t charge $70 for an MP only experience
Yes I think that is a replicable strategy for success. Getting #1 right is hard
Sony could easily have success with this strategy if they brought back Killzone MP
Dr. Wilkinson
Member
I think the reason it caught on was a combination of perfect timing & they didn’t set out to make the most successful live service PlayStation game in history. People were hungry for something fresh & new.
I think trying to dissect it and see what made it so successful is almost thinking about it too much. Because it wasn’t made with the intention of that happening. They had zero idea how well the game would perform commercially.
mayham2199
Member
I disagree here because I think if you do #1 correctly people will get over the other two. I also wouldn't even consider #1 something you can learn from HD2. Who the hell is trying to make a boring and unappealing game and thinking that's the key to success? I also have a hard time believing that a very fun and appealing MP game would be left a lone because it's 1. $70 or 2. monetized to hell and back.
COD does both and it's doing great. Hell IMO it's not even doing #1 correctly but clearly I'm in the minority here.
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James Sawyer Ford
Member
CoD is CoD, got the first mover advantage and lives off its legacy.
I don’t think new IP has that luxury
rm082e
Member
Okay, so what exactly are the lessons to take away from HD2, that don't sound like the same boiler plate crap every developer says while they're working on a game?
Dr. Wilkinson
Member
Nintendo was hopeful it would reach 100 million, but they of course no idea how well it would do until that first holiday season happened and it just exploded. And then of course the perfect storm of COVID + Animal Crossing just set it on this crazy trajectory. That will not be replicated with a Switch successor.
But certainly it reinforced for them ten-fold that software sells hardware. Nothing else matters.
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bender
What time is it?
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BbMajor7th
Member
People will attempt to clone it's success, without doubt, but the simple truth is that you can't bottle lightning. You can't remake moments like Minecraft, Fortnite or Helldivers. You have to be willing to try new things and have that rare talent of spotting a really good idea before anyone else does.
Most modern corps do not have that talent - they can't spot great products ahead of time, so they rely on replicating already proven success.
Entertainment industries used to be obsessed with spotting the next big thing, now they're only interested in copying the last big thing.
Most modern corps do not have that talent - they can't spot great products ahead of time, so they rely on replicating already proven success.
Entertainment industries used to be obsessed with spotting the next big thing, now they're only interested in copying the last big thing.
Represent.
Represent(ative) of bad opinions
Once again he’s right as usual. Don’t think we’ve ever disagreed on anything other than frame rate lmao
Belthazar
Member
Why are people still listening to him in 2024? He clearly doesn't know what he's talking about and never will, as he pays people to agree to whatever he says and laugh at whatever joke he tells
There's plenty to be learned from Helldivers 2 without resorting to trying to copy it, especially with how they handled the Live Service aspect of it. It is the first game where the live service aspect actually serves a purpose and moves things forward.
There's plenty to be learned from Helldivers 2 without resorting to trying to copy it, especially with how they handled the Live Service aspect of it. It is the first game where the live service aspect actually serves a purpose and moves things forward.
bitbydeath
Member
Specifically:
1. Have fluid character movement;
2. Have great sound design;
3. Ensure the gameplay loop can be played in a variety of different ways;
4. Explosions, this game wouldn’t be as popular without them.
HoodWinked
Member
there probably is nothing to learn from it from publisher's perspective.
publishers already know if they make a good game and have good support it makes gamers happy so fuck that.
publishers already know if they make a good game and have good support it makes gamers happy so fuck that.
Mobilemofo
Member
Engaging gameplay. Must look reasonable. Solid movement. Stealth live service dlc.
bender
What time is it?
Nintendo needs to take notes for the next Nintendogs.
Mibu no ookami
Demoted Member® Pro™
Time-stamped...
Based on your thread title I was going to suggest that he is a complete moron and I don't know why people taking him seriously, but we have a broken clock situation here.
He is right in a sense that the specific formula for Helldivers 2 isn't one in which can simply be replicated, but what I would say is that Helldivers proves that making a fun game with sufficient polish can open avenues of success.
If Helldivers 2 had been PS5 only, would it be nearly as successful? No. I think that is a takeaway, but Helldivers 2 could have been on PS4 as well, and despite being potentially more hamstrung, it could have been potentially even more successful or maybe it would have been so hamstrung that it would have been less successful.
To take away that a game should be fun is kind of a misnomer and a given.
I think there are also lessons to be learned from their mistakes in terms of how the code was written to handle sufficient endusers.
I think people try to learn lessons from games, but they learn the wrong ones. Look at all the empty open world games we have because of GTA, and they're all pretty boring. What have we learned from Pokemon or Fortnite? What did Genshin Impact learn from Zelda?
bitbydeath
Member
Gaelyon
Member
There's always something to learn from a success or from a failure. That doesn't mean you can just make a recipe by copying it as is... well actually you can look at survivors games or vampire saviors likes and so on. I'm not sure Helldivers will seed a new subtype of multi shoots by itself, it's just a good combo of good theme, good gameplay, good graphics, good timing.