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[Boogie]

oh for the love of god boogie, IT'S AN ANALOGY. it's not hammy's faults that these elementary school literary concepts are clearly too advanced for you.

I'm tired of people pulling the Nazi card to demonize others. Were the students morons? Yes. But they don't deserve to be compared to Nazis.

He admitted it himself that using the term Nazis "carries heavy emotional connotations", and he's using it casually in a situation that doesn't warrant such "heavy emotional connotations".

 

[videogamer]

Fine. "Red stars are terribly similar to yellow stars" = simply ridiculous "argument"

Go back and find the complete argument.

Uh, again, then why bring up the Nazis? Back to my "extreme" arguments:

The Nazis did what America did in opposing communism, but TO THE EXTREME!
The Nazis did what the Allies did in using propaganda, but TO THE EXTREME!

Extremes work fine with analogies.

Look,you're making Nazi analogies. It's not that big of a stretch on GAF to make the jump to likening Bush to Hitler. Again, if you didn't, fine, but I'm not going to apologize for such a mistake since you are so freely tossing around Nazi comparisons.

I'm using Nazi comparisions because you wanted to understand why I mentioned Nazis in my first post.

He admitted it himself that using the term Nazis "carries heavy emotional connotations", and he's using it casually in a situation that doesn't warrant such "heavy emotional connotations".

Why not? Would you like to go into why actions of others is deserving of heavy emotional connotations?

 

[Boogie]

Go back and find the complete argument.

Good grief, I wasn't talking about your "complete" argument, I was clarifying your nitpicking of my use of "equal" instead of "terribly similar".

But fuck this, I have essays to write.

 

[NLB2]

Man, that's awesome how they define inculcate for us. Fucking junior college kids think they know better than us. My guess is it was Olimario.

 

[Boogie]

Man, that's awesome how they define inculcate for us. Fucking junior college kids think they know better than us. My guess is it was Olimario.

:lol

Didn't think about that. That's hilarious.

 

[videogamer]

Good grief, I wasn't talking about your "complete" argument, I was clarifying your nitpicking of my use of "equal" instead of "terribly similar".

But fuck this, I have essays to write.

similar: marked by correspondence or resemblance
equal: Having the same quantity, measure, or value as another.

similar

equal

 

[Mr. Blonde]

Boogie=idiot who doesn't get analogies

 

[NLB2]

Boogie=idiot who doesn't get analogies

Mr. Blonde=idiot who I'd love to see say that to Boogie in real life.

 

[Kobun Heat]

Come on, guys. Haven't you learned anything from the cautionary tale of the Sneetches?

 

[Mr. Blonde]

NLB2=idiot junior member who for no reason thinks I wouldn't call some moron an idiot to his face in real life

 

[Boogie]

Mr. Blonde=idiot who I'd love to see say that to Boogie in real life.

I'm not in the habit of assaulting people just because they disagree with me, NLB2.

and :lol @ someone with 69 posts calling NLB2 a junior member

 

[FightyF]

I think the Nazi comparison is acceptable.

Nazis were intolerant of others...wouldn't you agree?

Nazis physically labelled other that they saw were things that their country needed less of...wouldn't you agree?

Obviously, these students are intolerant of these professors. Secondly, they have physically labelled them, one by one, and hint that these professors should be gotten rid of.

 

[Hitokage]

Bah, heaven forbid somebody actually make an honest comparison of the organized intimidation(not intolerance, intimidation) used by this college group and the matching element in fascism.

 

[Boogie]

I think the Nazi comparison is acceptable.

Nazis were intolerant of others...wouldn't you agree?

Nazis physically labelled other that they saw were things that their country needed less of...wouldn't you agree?

Obviously, these students are intolerant of these professors. Secondly, they have physically labelled them, one by one, and hint that these professors should be gotten rid of.

I will agree with the first statement. But does anyone who is intolerant deserve to be compared to the Nazis?

With the second one, I'm don't think I can agree. The professors weren't "physically" labelled, and as I questioned before, I am not certain that they were pointed out "one by one".

I wish the article was more clear about whether the "10 faculty offices" were the offices of individual professors, or simply something akin to departmental offices.

 

[Boogie]

Bah, heaven forbid somebody actually make an honest comparison of the organized intimidation(not intolerance, intimidation) used by this college group and the matching element in fascism.

But is it really intimdation if it's just a student group with no power or authority? This has struck me more as a silly stunt that can be easily brushed aside since there doesn't seem to be any actual institutional movement for the ideas of the flyer to be implementd.

 

[WedgeX]

All this talk about people being labeled Communists...and not ONE SINGLE PERSON has mentioned McCarthy-ism?

What the hell people, what the hell.

 

[Boogie]

All this talk about people being labeled Communists...and not ONE SINGLE PERSON has mentioned McCarthy-ism?

What the hell people, what the hell.

heh, yeah, I would almost think that would be the more accurate analogy to make. But people kinda seemed to be rather irrationally focussed on the Nazis these days ;P

 

[peedi]

But is it really intimdation if it's just a student group with no power or authority? This has struck me more as a silly stunt that can be easily brushed aside since there doesn't seem to be any actual institutional movement for the ideas of the flyer to be implementd.

Intimidation can arise from the promulgation of lies, calumnious charges that insinuate terrible things, oftentimes obfuscating truths that lead to honest discourse. To your average American citizen, no matter how misinformed they are, the term "Communist" denotes repressive totalitarianism. The right need only toss that slur about until it's ingrained in the minds of the less educated that liberals are repressive totalitarians and, thus, undeserving of an open audience to views that depart from the reigning right's. It's intellectual intimidation. It's the refusal of a free exchange of ideas. This is how the right has succeeded, a ploy abetted by a pliant media.

 

[FightyF]

Well that's true Boogie, I misread it to mean that each of the professors offices were labelled. I think that anyone who is intolerant AND proposed the cleansing of the supposed "enemy" should be compared to Nazis. Sorry, I should have been more clear.

Ie. A person who does not tolerate homosexuality, but doesn't think that all gays should be killed shouldn't be compared to Nazis. The second they think all gays SHOULD be removed/cleansed/killed from society (or even a campus for that matter) should be compared to Nazis.

Bah, heaven forbid somebody actually make an honest comparison of the organized intimidation(not intolerance, intimidation) used by this college group and the matching element in fascism.

I see your point, but I'm coming from the POV that Nazi's started out by labelling, ridiculing, and becoming intolerant of Jews, years before they started concentration camps and carrying out genocide.

The actions on the part of Nazi Germany went through a few phases before things got to the way it ended up. This gradual evolution of hate and intolerance made it easier to get to the horrible state it did near the end. If Hitler carried out the "Final Solution" in the form of death camps, the second he came into power, you'd see a lot more outcry from the German population.

IMO the comparison is needed as a wake up call. The actions of the students closely mirror those of Nazis, and this should be a wake up call in regards to tactics. If they want change, if they want their voices and opinions to count...there are other better ways of doing so.

All this talk about people being labeled Communists...and not ONE SINGLE PERSON has mentioned McCarthy-ism?

Well, it goes without saying. A witchhunt it is, but I think the focus of the thread got a bit shifted so we didn't discuss it that much.

 

[Hitokage]

Boogie: It has to do with the current political climate, and by that I mean the behavior of a certain political party and the growing extremist audience that is now supporting said party.

Fight: Learn some history. The Nazis didn't just show up one morning and started executing jews. There is a HUGE gulf between intimidation and genocide.

 

[Kobun Heat]

If you're a communist, you only have to fear "McCarthyism" if you don't want people to know. The reaction of some of these professors was probably "Oh, that was nice of them. The red star I put on my door last year had begun to fade."

EDIT: Commie cracks aside, to hell with putting up posters. That's got the college leftist taint to it. Write a magazine or something, or do a political-spectrum survey of the professors in the history department and present it to the Dean. Posters are so out.

 

[Hitokage]

Apparently Kobun's never heard of a "blacklist", but I'd expect that from him.

 

[FightyF]

Fight: Learn some history. The Nazis didn't just show up one morning and started executing jews. There is a HUGE gulf between intimidation and genocide.

That's what I said...

???

And that's the whole point, it STARTED with intimidation and led to genocide.

If this intimidation had no element of cleaning out the campus of these professors, I'd agree with you, it'd be hard to argue that it can get from point A to point B as it did in Nazi Germany. But as you can see there are hints that point B must occur.

 

[Kobun Heat]

Yeah, but what do you have to worry from a "blacklist" if everybody already knows you're a communist; indeed if your political leanings are one of the reasons the school hired you in the first place? It's hardly damning on campus to say you're a communist. The only people in danger of much of anything here are the students who put up the flyers, who are putting themselves at risk of punishment for their speech.

EDIT: I mean, have you seen some of the things college professors put on their office doors?

 

[peedi]

Yeah, but what do you have to worry from a "blacklist" if everybody already knows you're a communist; indeed if your political leanings are one of the reasons the school hired you in the first place? It's hardly damning on campus to say you're a communist. The only people in danger of much of anything here are the students who put up the flyers, who are putting themselves at risk of punishment for their speech.

The climate is such that professors SHOULD worry about their tenure. Look at what's happening to Ward Churchill. It is not long before this man, this teller of truths, is ran out of his school. The right need only bombard you with slander before the public, ignorant and fat off the spoils of fascism, cries out for action. This is the model of modern conservative activism. Wake up.

 

[Boogie]

Boogie: It has to do with the current political climate, and by that I mean the behavior of a certain political party and the growing extremist audience that is now supporting said party.

Fair enough, I guess I don't have a good a sense of how widespread this extremism among Rebublicans is getting. I guess I just viewed it from the perspective that there are extremist student groups from all sides of the political spectrum that like to pull inflammatory stunts.

 

[Kobun Heat]

Ward Churchill indeed! That'll be the day when he has to worry about his job. Firing a tenured professor even for cause is incredibly difficult.

I guess I just viewed it from the perspective that there are extremist student groups from all sides of the political spectrum that like to pull inflammatory stunts.

Maybe you're just trying to be a nice guy, but don't feel you need to dip to that sort of equivocation. Not a day goes by on a college campus when some left-of-center group isn't planning, pondering, or executing some inflammatory stunt or another -- whether your garden-variety signs-and-slogans protest, a sit-in, burning down a mink farm, or putting up way more than ten flyers accusing somebody or another of being a racist.

Meanwhile, one right-wing guy puts up ten flyers and there's an explosion of outrage. Makes me want to go have an affirmative action bake sale right now.

 

[peedi]

Fair enough, I guess I don't have a good a sense of how widespread this extremism among Rebublicans is getting. I guess I just viewed it from the perspective that there are extremist student groups from all sides of the political spectrum that like to pull inflammatory stunts.

Republicans as a whole are extremists. Conservative extremists. Leftists are radical progressives.

 

[Mr. Blonde]

I'm not in the habit of assaulting people just because they disagree with me, NLB2.

and :lol @ someone with 69 posts calling NLB2 a junior member

His tag says junior member, mine doesn't. I may not have time to make thousands of posts a year like he does but all the points still stand. I'm still amazed that he thinks I'd be afraid to call someone an idiot to their face.

 

[Mr. Blonde]

Ward Churchill indeed! That'll be the day when he has to worry about his job. Firing a tenured professor even for cause is incredibly difficult.

Yes, let's fire Ward Churchill for exercising his first amendment right! Nazism at its finest that would be.

BTW I don't agree with most of what Churchill said but Republicans when talking about September 11's causes are even less correct when they say that freedom was the reason for the attack. Freedom was not what caused Sept. 11. US support of Israel, US soldiers stationed in Saudi Arabia, and US mideast policy in general caused it. If freedom was the only reason how come Iceland never gets attacked?

 

[peedi]

Ward Churchill indeed! That'll be the day when he has to worry about his job. Firing a tenured professor even for cause is incredibly difficult.

Well, they may imprison him, as they did to Sami Al-Arian, a Palestinian professor at the University of South Florida. He is currently being held on bogus "terrorism" charges, the latest in this administration's attempt to suppress any and all opposition to their filthy allegiance with Israel.

This is him:

 

[Kobun Heat]

People from across the political spectrum have come out to say that firing Ward Churchill would be the wrong thing to do. National Review said it, FIRE backs him up, etc. Cf. Larry Summers and you tell me who's in more danger.

 

[Boogie]

Republicans as a whole are extremists. Conservative extremists. Leftists are radical progressives.

Yeah, see, there's no reason for you to respond to any of my posts, because I'm just going to ignore anything you say.

..err, except for this one, of course

His tag says junior member, mine doesn't. I may not have time to make thousands of posts a year like he does but all the points still stand.

Yeah, but still, it's would be like calling someone a "newbie" just because his tag says so, and not because he's new.

I'm still amazed that he thinks I'd be afraid to call someone an idiot to their face

Methinks NLB2 has been spending too much time browsing the forums of mma.tv and sherdog.com

 

[peedi]

Dude, I hate to break it to you, but it's not just conservatives who do this. If anything, liberals are even more rabid about this. Speaking of Wards, look up Ward Connerly. He's an asshole with some stupid ideas, but he's been bombarded with slander like you wouldn't believe because he opposes affirmative action.

Ward Churchill is an idiot too.
Edit:
Oh. Maybe I just shouldn't bother.

I'm very familiar with Ward Connerly. He is a sellout, bankrolled by extremely wealthy right-wing interests, who operates at the detriment of his own people. There's a huge difference. Look at what happened to John Kerry. I'm not his biggest fan, but what the perfidiously named 'Swift Boat Veterans for Truth' did is a perfect example of how the right slanders any and all opposition -- with the aid of the mainstream media. Neither CNN nor ABC, those supposedly leftist outlets, devoted nearly as much time to the charges of Bush's dereliction during Vietnam as they did the LIES spewed by John O'Neil and that pack of scoundrels.

There is no comparison.

 

[Kobun Heat]

I'm not even going to touch that with an eleven-foot pole, which is the pole I reserve for things I wouldn't touch with a ten-foot pole, except to say that you're veering way, way, way off topic. If I remember right we were talking about the Nazis invading our junior colleges.

 

[peedi]

I'm not even going to touch that with an eleven-foot pole, which is the pole I reserve for things I wouldn't touch with a ten-foot pole, except to say that you're veering way, way, way off topic. If I remember right we were talking about the Nazis invading our junior colleges.

We're discussing the tactics employed by the right in their attempts to discredit opposing views.

 

[BobbyRobby]

As a student of a state college in NJ, I can see calling proffessors Communists, but implying that they shouldn't be able to teach is ridicuolous

 

[Fresh Prince]

Guess people didn't really like 'The Soup Nazi' either.

 

[NLB2]

His tag says junior member, mine doesn't. I may not have time to make thousands of posts a year like he does but all the points still stand. I'm still amazed that he thinks I'd be afraid to call someone an idiot to their face.

Yeah man, it took a ton of hard work to get my tag, that's cool if you're a newb and you don't know who I am.

Boogie: What are you talking about? You live in Canada! Home of manly lumberjacks hockey players. Assault's not illegal, in fact, its reccomended way to let off steam!

 

[videogamer]

Awesome, I found the original article. http://www.berkeley.edu/news/media/releases/2003/10/27_lakoff.shtml

Not just that, there's now a follow-up (from last August) which is really interesting. He talks about more Repulican catchphrases like the "war on terror." http://www.berkeley.edu/news/media/releases/2004/08/25_lakoff.shtml

I'm gonna have to go check out some of the links from that page. Hope you guys actually read the articles.

Wha... you've been taught by Lakoff himself? Pah all I get to see are poorly ripped snippets of a DVD with him on it.

 

[Jonnyboy117]

Thank God there are people willing to fight this country and its allies (Israel).

I hope you mean "fight" in the ideological sense only.

 

[Tommie Hu$tle]

All this talk about people being labeled Communists...and not ONE SINGLE PERSON has mentioned McCarthy-ism?

What the hell people, what the hell.

But is it really intimdation if it's just a student group with no power or authority? This has struck me more as a silly stunt that can be easily brushed aside since there doesn't seem to be any actual institutional movement for the ideas of the flyer to be implementd.

 

[WedgeX]

But is it really intimdation if it's just a student group with no power or authority? This has struck me more as a silly stunt that can be easily brushed aside since there doesn't seem to be any actual institutional movement for the ideas of the flyer to be implementd.

McCarthy-ism doesn't (really)need to have any power/authority to be effective, it just has to attack people based on their "communist"-like beliefs and views, real or not, to try and make them conform to "traditional American" viewpoints. Although, to be more specific I guess we could just say that these particular College Republicans were trying to start another Red Scare.

 

[tetsuoxb]

guys, relax about hammy. you are taking him too seriously.

ffs, his stated intent is to punish people who dont agree with him (conservatives). of course he is going to compare them to nazis. arguing with him is pointless.

 

[videogamer]

guys, relax about hammy. you are taking him too seriously.

ffs, his stated intent is to punish people who dont agree with him (conservatives). of course he is going to compare them to nazis. arguing with him is pointless.

Obviously you didn't put it in context. I was talking about people (not just plain conservatives) who seek to contain gay people in their second-rate citizenship. Also, there was that discussion of justice and the need for punishment (them recognizing their wrongs).

 

[tetsuoxb]

Obviously you didn't put it in context. I was talking about people (not just plain conservatives) who seek to contain gay people in their second-rate citizenship.

you didnt put your nazi analogy in context, so i guess it all evens out in the end.

 

[videogamer]

you didnt put your nazi analogy in context, so i guess it all evens out in the end.

explain

 

[tetsuoxb]

well, you just spent 2 pages of a thread arguing that the red star is a segregating element and not a self-adopted symbol of communism in relation to an imposed symbol of segregation in regards to the yellow star (with the caveat that the star of david is a self-adopted symbol in other uses).

Why? Id say it was because you were trying to be funny/sarcastic in your vitriol towards conservatives and didnt realize that recognizing the distinction between the two in one way or another in your original post would have been worthwhile.

That is why I dont take you seriously really. Even though you know what you are talking about, it seems from the links/posts that you put here that your stream of incoming information is so far left that even moderation of it on your part still puts it pretty far out there. You are so blinded by personal anger at the other political side that your comments, even when they make sense to you, can be taken in a much more extreme manner by other people. It is cool though. You are who you are. I just wont get into political arguments with you because I came to the realize that you are so stuck in dogma and political hate that you probably wouldnt budge to agree with a valid point. Which means to say that you are too partisan to have a real discussion/debate with, and if I were to try and engage in one, it would end up bringing in third parties who understand neither you nor I, and probably end up with me getting banned due to the sociopolitical slant of the board in general.

For instance, what I mean by not budging is that I would venture that you, like most democrats on the hill, would steadfastly refuse to even begrudgingly accept that there is a legit push for democracy in the arab world (Egypt, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia, Palestine) because to you it means complicity in the reasons for the war. I.E. you opposition to the start of a conservative policy completely rules out praise of any positive effects.

If you ever actually want to talk politics with me, I would love to debate you, but I am just not going to do it here.

 

[videogamer]

well, you just spent 2 pages of a thread arguing that the red star is a segregating element and not a self-adopted symbol of communism in relation to an imposed symbol of segregation in regards to the yellow star (with the caveat that the star of david is a self-adopted symbol in other uses).

Tell me why the analogy is not in context. You should have picked something up while I was debating boogie.

Why? Id say it was because you were trying to be funny/sarcastic in your vitriol towards conservatives and didnt realize that recognizing the distinction between the two in one way or another in your original post would have been worthwhile.

I think they deserve it because posting these things... just re-read the past few pages. BTW, I'm not nearly as overt as you. For goodness sake, you called the state of California braindead. Not to mention your bashing of Cal students.

You are who you are. I just wont get into political arguments with you because I came to the realize that you are so stuck in dogma and political hate that you probably wouldnt budge to agree with a valid point. Which means to say that you are too partisan to have a real discussion/debate with, and if I were to try and engage in one, it would end up bringing in third parties who understand neither you nor I, and probably end up with me getting banned due to the sociopolitical slant of the board in general.

Since when did personal involvement because of inequal status become "dogma and political hate"? It is personal involvement in the search for justice.

For instance, what I mean by not budging is that I would venture that you, like most democrats on the hill, would steadfastly refuse to even begrudgingly accept that there is a legit push for democracy in the arab world (Egypt, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia, Palestine) because to you it means complicity in the reasons for the war. I.E. you opposition to the start of a conservative policy completely rules out praise of any positive effects.

If you ever actually want to talk politics with me, I would love to debate you, but I am just not going to do it here.

There has always been a push for democracy of some kind in the Arab word. However, the means that the current administration is trying to pursue it are not acceptable (such as using the WMD excuse).

BTW, this stuff is in the mainstream news too. Just because I read left-leaning material out of frustration of the useless MSM doesn't mean that the material is invalid.

 

[tetsuoxb]

It wasnt in context at first. You cleared it up. I dont disagree with that.

Overt or not, calling people "frothing liberal Cal students" and calling California political activism braindead (i didnt call the state braindead) is a fair distance away from calling college republicans nazis by analogy. Frothing liberals and braindead activists didnt wipe out 6,000,000 plus.

It seems to me that your personal search for justice (in which you are right, because I for one agree with the equal protection clause and have said so in every dealing with you) seems to have merged with left/progressive ideas on other policies. To me, your "dogma and political hate" is equivalent to treating issues as "a friend of my enemy is also my enemy".

You proved my point about the arab world example, by saying that "there has always been a push" when in reality it has never been as overt or prevelant as it is right now. The Iraq war was obviously a turning point for the region in regards to democracy, and I think it would do democrats a great deal of good to say "we voted for the war, ended up not agreeing with it, but we are fully behind this new push for democracy", instead all you get is silence.

Finally, I firmly believe that you are what you eat when it comes to news consumption. Unfortunately, I think that you consume stuff that is spun so far left, that even if you personally put your own more moderate spin on it while reading, you are end up to the left of true, raw, news.