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[dr_octagon]

Only bought them recently. I even plan to buy more of them (red faction guerilla and dead rising 2)
bulletstorm was in the summer sale just 2 days ago and flatout UC yesterday

rumored GFWL shut down is july 1st.

I would write to them and ask them to clarify the situation and whether your games will still work. Make it clear that your purchases are based on being able to play them in the future and see what they say. It's not reasonable to expect a game to stop working within a few months.

In that case you should be able to get a refund. But why buy more of them if you're going to lose access anyway?

agreed, hold off buying anything if you suspect you won't be able to play them (or buy from elsewhere)

 

[Panajev2001a]

As with a lot of European laws, I will want to see the judicial system applying them and consumers seeing the real limits because they tend to be a lot of fanfare, window dressing, misleading statements (the famous 2nd year of the EU 2-years warranty), and tons of loopholes for corporations to abuse. We will see.

Also, it will take a while before all states ratify and implement the law and depending on the matter you see a lot of member states dragging their feet or trying to skirt the issue entirely.

Hopefully it is a good step forward and make no mistake, I am pro the concept behind the European Union, I would just like it to be more united, more like a United States if Europe of sorts, but you cannot and should not force it on EU citizens... You can hope they recognize the need to break down nationalistic ideological barriers. I will stop the rant here .

 

[Wasp]

This would have been useful when DeathSpank 2 was released. That game had a game breaking bug that meant for me and hundreds of other players the game was literally impossible to finish. I contacted the developer Hothead Games by email and the guy said although they know of the problem and that it could be fixed with a simple patch the game's publisher EA were refusing to authorize the development of a patch.

 

[abracadaver]

In that case you should be able to get a refund. But why buy more of them if you're going to lose access anyway?

I still want to play them and I hope that the july 1st date is not true

 

[funkypie]

And this is one of the reasons the UK leaving the EU is a bad idea.

Why? The uk has excellent consumer laws anyway. The uk government is capable of enacting the same law... silly europhil.

 

[Polk]

I still want to play them and I hope that the july 1st date is not true

I don't think even Microsoft would shutdown whole system without 30 day notice.
They've announced shutting down Halo 2 servers several months ahead of the date (and then of course backpeddaled on the whole decision down the line).

 

[Dictator93]

This thread title is glorious btw.

EU is a strange beast, ECJ is all about securing mobile citizens consumer rights, but the european commission makes policy which shits all over peopless hopes and dreams.

Like a chimera.

 

[Dangoesforth]

And this is one of the reasons the UK leaving the EU is a bad idea.

Exactly, consumer rights is one of the most positive things about the EU.

 

[dr_octagon]

As with a lot of European laws, I will want to see the judicial system applying them and consumers seeing the real limits because they tend to be a lot of fanfare, window dressing, misleading statements (the famous 2nd year of the EU 2-years warranty), and tons of loopholes for corporations to abuse. We will see.

i have no doubt we'll continue to see bad practices and ways to circumvent the new legislation and it will be interesting to see but it's filled a gap which existed for some time so it's definitely a positive

 

[Freeman]

I'm not a big fan of unnecessary laws/regulation(I'm also not from the EU).

Isn't a refund of a a product that doesn't work pretty much standard?

If this kind of specific regulation opens loopholes for people to exploit everybody ends up paying for it. To me the best consumer defenses are still the consumer choice of not supporting companies that have practices you don't approve and information available before you buy.

 

[OverBlood 3]

Gonna try and get a BF4 refund later, fuck it. I haven't got money to throw away.

 

[Brofist]

I'm not a big fan of unnecessary laws/regulation(I'm also not from the EU).
.

I wouldn't call protecting consumer's rights unnecessary.

Isn't a refund of a a product that doesn't work pretty much standard?

Not for digitally purchased goods which is what this specifically covers.

If this kind of specific regulation opens loopholes for people to exploit everybody ends up paying for it. To me the best consumer defenses are still the consumer choice of not supporting companies that have practices you don't approve and information available before you buy.

That doesn't really help when the product you've already purchased is broken/unusable..

 

[rudieboy77]

I'm not a big fan of unnecessary laws/regulation(I'm also not from the EU).

Isn't a refund of a a product that doesn't work pretty much standard?

If this kind of specific regulation opens loopholes for people to exploit everybody ends up paying for it. To me the best consumer defenses are still the consumer choice of not supporting companies that have practices you don't approve and information available before you buy.

If the law was unnecessary, why did people need to petition to address their grievance?
As for the don't buy it excuse, not every one knows they are going to be buying a broken digital game.

 

[Enco]

I'm not a big fan of unnecessary laws/regulation(I'm also not from the EU).

Isn't a refund of a a product that doesn't work pretty much standard?

If this kind of specific regulation opens loopholes for people to exploit everybody ends up paying for it. To me the best consumer defenses are still the consumer choice of not supporting companies that have practices you don't approve and information available before you buy.

Oh come on.

How can anyone really be against something like this?

How does it hurt you at all?

I don't get some people.

 

[bee]

what's the chance of getting a refund for BF4 pc using this, worth a go? got a retail copy activated on origin

 

[dr_octagon]

I'm not a big fan of unnecessary laws/regulation(I'm also not from the EU).

Isn't a refund of a a product that doesn't work pretty much standard?

If this kind of specific regulation opens loopholes for people to exploit everybody ends up paying for it. To me the best consumer defenses are still the consumer choice of not supporting companies that have practices you don't approve and information available before you buy.

there are also cancellation rights which were not present before, you can return an unused physical item and now that applies to digital goods. companies would refuse to provide a refund or not make an effort to fix a problem and just refer you to their terms and conditions. this reinforces the idea of a digital product being of satisfactory quality and a refund / repair / replacement is much easier now. (as mentioned, we will have to see how it works in practice). consumers don't have to rely on goodwill, all the companies would have to comply and extends to digital purchases across the board (not just games)

as for choice, people are always free not to exercise their rights

what's the chance of getting a refund for BF4 pc using this, worth a go? got a retail copy activated on origin

always worth a go

 

[figadapaura]

I'm not a big fan of unnecessary laws/regulation(I'm also not from the EU).

Isn't a refund of a a product that doesn't work pretty much standard?

If this kind of specific regulation opens loopholes for people to exploit everybody ends up paying for it. To me the best consumer defenses are still the consumer choice of not supporting companies that have practices you don't approve and information available before you buy.

If this law wasn't necessary, then it wouldn't have been enacted.

You'd rather see consumers be exploited instead? Sombody is gonna have to buy the game in order to let everyone else know that it's faulty, so why can't they get a refund?

 

[danielcw]

I remember a few years ago my Sony LCD TV started having issues so I rang Sony and they basically told me to pay up (an amount almost as much as a new television) or piss off. I called the Australian Competition and Consumer Commission and the guy on the phone told me to call Sony back and say two words - 'Statutory Rights'.

Is the law in Australia that you have to contact the manufacturer?

As with a lot of European laws, I will want to see the judicial system applying them and consumers seeing the real limits because they tend to be a lot of fanfare, window dressing, misleading statements (the famous 2nd year of the EU 2-years warranty), and tons of loopholes for corporations to abuse. We will see.

Anecdotal evidence, but I never had any problem with the 2 year warranty.
Quite the contrary actually.

So I am wondering, what "famous" part of the warranty you are referring to.

Gonna try and get a BF4 refund later, fuck it. I haven't got money to throw away.

Did you buy it after the law went into effect?

 

[Panajev2001a]

Anecdotal evidence, but I never had any problem with the 2 year warranty.
Quite the contrary actually.

So I am wondering, what "famous" part of the warranty you are referring to.

I am referring to the second year being tied to defects you should have to prove where already present when the product was manufactured and sold. Whether companies decide to use it to their own advantage or not is a different matter. Game shops in Italy used to remind customers that Sony would ask for certified proof after the first year of warranty.

Edit: sorry, it was not the second year, but half into the first year...

Within six months from receipt of the goods, you just need to show the trader that they are faulty or not as advertised. But, after six months in most EU countries you also need to prove yourself that the defect already existed on receipt of the goods, for example, by showing that the defect is due to the poor quality of materials used.

As I said, one thing is companies showing goodwill and another thing is law requiring them to and giving rights to consumers.

 

[KtSlime]

I'm not a big fan of unnecessary laws/regulation(I'm also not from the EU).

Isn't a refund of a a product that doesn't work pretty much standard?

If this kind of specific regulation opens loopholes for people to exploit everybody ends up paying for it. To me the best consumer defenses are still the consumer choice of not supporting companies that have practices you don't approve and information available before you buy.

You seem to be channeling Milton Friedman, not Morgan Freeman.

 

[Nokterian]

I'm not a big fan of unnecessary laws/regulation(I'm also not from the EU).

Isn't a refund of a a product that doesn't work pretty much standard?

If this kind of specific regulation opens loopholes for people to exploit everybody ends up paying for it. To me the best consumer defenses are still the consumer choice of not supporting companies that have practices you don't approve and information available before you buy.

This is one of the weirdest post i have seen in a longtime. Digital goods are equal as physical goods and it wasnt in the law before so you get screwed no matter what and that have changed now. If it's broken you have a right to get your money back. But hey US doesn't do this because company's are people to! No pro consumer rights over there and also no net neutrality. And your not morgan freeman more donald trump for that matter.

 

[dr_octagon]

As I said, one thing is companies showing goodwill and another thing is law requiring them to and giving rights to consumers.

They are not obliged to refund but that doesn't mean a consumer is stuck if they have a faulty good. If a graphics card or HDD fails on a console, you can get a third party report created who can assess the problem. Any costs incurred should be reimbursed if you can demonstrate a fault existed. It may be only be a certain batch of consoles but you are still covered. If there is further evidence of a defect which was not known before purchase, this will probably be documented online (other people raising the issue on forums). You can use that as part of your claim for a repair / refund.

 

[flatearthpandas]

I like the letter template.

It would be nice if the US passed something like this as well but I don't have much confidence

 

[danielcw]

Game shops in Italy used to remind customers that Sony would ask for certified proof after the first year of warranty.

Edit: sorry, it was not the second year, but half into the first year....

Yeah, the burden of proof shifts, after six months.
Was that what you meant with "famous"?

Why do gameshops in Italy mention Sony in the first place?
It is the shop owner's jib to take care of it, the consumer has to prove it towards him, and not towards Sony.
How the shop owner deals with Sony is abstract to the consumer.

It is in the interest of the Shop owner to make the conusmer happy (as long as he is reasonable, of course), and it is in Sony's interest to make the shop owners happy.
That way, every party involved has enough (hopefully) leverage.
Sony may be able to afford a customer, that can not afford to loose a shop, or even worse a whole chain.

On the other hand:
When Mircosoft had the Red Ring Of Death fiasco,
many assumed, that Microsoft chose to directly deal with consumers,
(extend guarantee, free pickup and delivery)
so they do not disgruntle the shops.

This is one of the weirdest post i have seen in a longtime. Digital goods are equal as physical goods and it wasnt in the law before so you get screwed no matter what and that have changed now. If it's broken you have a right to get your money back.

Digital and physical goods are different in many aspects,
but of course you can have laws treat them the same, which makes sense.


"If it's broken you have a right to get your money back."
As Freeman asked, did that right not exist before?

 

[Panajev2001a]

They are not obliged to refund but that doesn't mean a consumer is stuck if they have a faulty good. If a graphics card or HDD fails on a console, you can get a third party report created who can assess the problem. Any costs incurred should be reimbursed if you can demonstrate a fault existed. It may be only be a certain batch of consoles but you are still covered. If there is further evidence of a defect which was not known before purchase, this will probably be documented online (other people raising the issue on forums). You can use that as part of your claim for a repair / refund.

Sounds hassle free and exactly how the 2 YEARS WARRANTY has been sold to the public so far . It is better than nothing, but for lots of consumer electronics products this naturally leads to people either eating the repair costs or buying a refurbished/used or new device.

 

[rudieboy77]

This is one of the weirdest post i have seen in a longtime. Digital goods are equal as physical goods and it wasnt in the law before so you get screwed no matter what and that have changed now. If it's broken you have a right to get your money back. But hey US doesn't do this because company's are people to! No pro consumer rights over there and also no net neutrality. And your not morgan freeman more donald trump for that matter.

It is not a weird post if you are from America and understand how conservatives (here) view regulations.

 

[Panajev2001a]

Yeah, the burden of proof shifts, after six months.
Was that what you meant with "famous"?

Why do gameshops in Italy mention Sony in the first place?
It is the shop owner's jib to take care of it, the consumer has to prove it towards him, and not towards Sony.
How the shop owner deals with Sony is abstract to the consumer.

It is in the interest of the Shop owner to make the conusmer happy (as long as he is reasonable, of course), and it is in Sony's interest to make the shop owners happy.
That way, every party involved has enough (hopefully) leverage.
Sony may be able to afford a customer, that can not afford to loose a shop, or even worse a whole chain.

On the other hand:
When Mircosoft had the Red Ring Of Death fiasco,
many assumed, that Microsoft chose to directly deal with consumers,
(extend guarantee, free pickup and delivery)
so they do not disgruntle the shops.





Digital and physical goods are different in many aspects,
but of course you can have laws treat them the same, which makes sense.


"If it's broken you have a right to get your money back."
As Freeman asked, did that right not exist before?

I am not sure it is the shop (Gamestop, MediaWorld, Saturn, Carrefour, Auchan, etc...) you have to deal with after 6 months, but the manufacturer which offers the warranty to you in the first place... That ultimately is the true seller.

Most electronics shops/retain chains in Italy they will clearly state that after the first two weeks, you need not to contact them but the manufacturer directly.

 

[dr_octagon]

Sounds hassle free and exactly how the 2 YEARS WARRANTY has been sold to the public so far . It is better than nothing, but for lots of consumer electronics products this naturally lead to people either eating the repair costs or buying a refurbished/used or new device.

It's not made easy but there are options available and I've never had any problems in practice, I got a repair for my laptop which was outside the warranty period. No report required, a few emails and phone calls sorted it. Also, some companies will put in 2 years warranty as standard (in UK).

 

[Panajev2001a]

It's not made easy but there are options available and I've never had any problems in practice, I got a repair for my laptop which was outside the warranty period. No report required, a few emails and phone calls sorted it. Also, some companies will put in 2 years warranty as standard (in UK).

Company goodwill which can change at any time. Anecdotal evidence that one consumer was treated fairly even beyond what's required is not the definitive proof of health of consumer rights in and of itself, but it is still good to hear when it happens.

 

[dr_octagon]

I am not sure it is the shop (Gamestop, MediaWorld, Saturn, Carrefour, Auchan, etc...) you have to deal with after 6 months, but the manufacturer which offers the warranty to you in the first place... That ultimately is the true seller.

Most electronics shops/retain chains in Italy they will clearly state that after the first two weeks, you need not to contact them but the manufacturer directly.

You have a contact with the seller because you paid them. They can contact the manufacturer or anyone else. You don't have to and I've heard plenty of misleading information. I was refused any assistance when I went into store and was told to contact the manufacturer. These people don't know what they are taking about and don't want the hassle of customers returning faulty goods.

 

[Freeman]

If this law wasn't necessary, then it wouldn't have been enacted.

You'd rather see consumers be exploited instead? Sombody is gonna have to buy the game in order to let everyone else know that it's faulty, so why can't they get a refund?

To me getting a refund on anything that doesn't work should be a given, digital or not.

I don't know how it came across that I'm the devil.

 

[dr_octagon]

Company goodwill which can change at any time. Anecdotal evidence that one consumer was treated fairly even beyond what's required is not the definitive proof of health of consumer rights in and of itself, but it is still good to hear when it happens.

It's not goodwill - I quoted them the legislation and explained their obligations. It may be anecdotal but the basis was in facts and I wasn't owed a favour. I made it clear that I would puruse the matter and referenced forums which were full of the same issues. The guy on the phone spent ages trying to convince me that there was nothing to be done but I knew that was incorrect. I'm not saying it's easy but if you are aware of your rights, it gives you confidence to exercise them.

Don't get me wrong, it's not a perfect system but there are options available.

 

[R_thanatos]

thank you guys for this thread.
Subscribed , it might come in handy ( who knows ? )

So far my experience have been understanding ( when asking for a refund ) , but you never know when that may change.

 

[danielcw]

I am not sure it is the shop (Gamestop, MediaWorld, Saturn, Carrefour, Auchan, etc...) you have to deal with after 6 months, but the manufacturer which offers the warranty to you in the first place... That ultimately is the true seller.

(of course I have no knowledge of laws in Italy, but ...)
I am pretty sure, the company you have to contact is your seller.
Your only contract is with them, your place where you could inspect the good before you bought it is at them.

Lets look at the opposite solution:
You playstaion's blu ray drive's laser/pickup is broken.
Do you have to contact Sony in Europe?
Would they be allowed to shift your blame towards Sony in Japan?
(after all, it is a product of Sony, and not their EU distribution partner's of daughter comnpany's)
Even worse, could Sony in Japan redirect you to Foxcomm in China, who redirect you to whoever made the Blu Ray drive to whoever made the pickup?

Of course not,
a civil law where you have to contact people you have no business with makes no sense.

Company goodwill which can change at any time. Anecdotal evidence that one consumer was treated fairly even beyond what's required is not the definitive proof of health of consumer rights in and of itself, but it is still good to hear when it happens.

There is a law, where in the first 6 months you are save.
On top of some local laws that force the companies to repair stuff in a timely manner and give you your money back.
Plus additional 18 months, where you are still in a strong position

IMHO, that is a law that puts many powers to conusmers.
And in the case of luxury products (which games are) consumers have the power anyway, because they have the money

 

[OverBlood 3]

Did you buy it after the law went into effect?

Nope, but I don't care. I have kept some evidence of the game not working, I took a photograph of the game where textures have not loaded in and thankfully kept it until now.

I sent the email, if I don't hear back within like 2 weeks I'm going to write them a letter.

 

[danielcw]

I sent the email, if I don't hear back within like 2 weeks I'm going to write them a letter.

Which version?
Where did you buy it?

Keep us updated, please,
and good luck

 

[Kater]

I think neither games could be applied here, unless they don't work (ie. are crashing) or lack of features they were were supposed to have.

Can you get a refund if the game is advertising some feature of the game that isn't there or doesn't properly work? Like, for example, War Z at launch or Dino Horde.

 

[Joni]

I think neither games could be applied here, unless they don't work (ie. are crashing) or lack of features they were were supposed to have.

Poor quality of a product would probably be covered under the right of returning something to the shop for store credit.

Can you get a refund if the game is advertising some feature of the game that isn't there or doesn't properly work? Like, for example, War Z at launch or Dino Horde.

False advertising, so that should be covered.

 

[Kater]

-snip-

False advertising, so that should be covered.

What about Early Access or games in Beta? Is it trickier for the consumer to get a refund on a product that isn't finished? Let's say the frame rate or a way too narrow FOV makes it unplayable for example. Would you as a consumer get a refund if a game makes you feel ill?

 

[OverBlood 3]

Which version?
Where did you buy it?

Keep us updated, please,
and good luck

The PS3 version digital version (off the SEN store of course).

Will do! Not sure if they'll refund me for any other reason than a 'goodwill' kind of thing, which is rich considering it's my right to ask for a refund for something that's broken.

 

[kitch9]

Who decides that a game is faulty or working as intended?

No game is perfect and all of them could be deemed faulty in some way surely?

 

[danielcw]

What about Early Access or games in Beta? Is it trickier for the consumer to get a refund on a product that isn't finished? Let's say the frame rate or a way too narrow FOV makes it unplayable for example. Would you as a consumer get a refund if a game makes you feel ill?

Well, at least on Steam you have been warned, before you bought it,
plus you are fully aware, that it is an early and/or unfinished product.


About frame rate and FOV,
I guess if it is a personal nausea thing it will be hard to make a case.

And objectively there is no standard for fps and FOV.
Well, the FOV should at least match advertised screenshots.
But unless a framerate and / or FOV are mentioned as bullet points in the describtion, how could one start to argue that the product is broken?

 

[Kater]

Well, at least on Steam you have been warned, before you bought it,
plus you are fully aware, that it is an early and/or unfinished product.


About frame rate and FOV,
I guess if it is a personal nausea thing it will be hard to make a case.

And objectively there is no standard for fps and FOV.
Well, the FOV should at least match advertised screenshots.
But unless a framerate and / or FOV are mentioned as bullet points in the describtion, how could one start to argue that the product is broken?

That's what I was getting at, but you have found far better words for it than me. The bolded part I mean.

 

[Guileless]

As with a lot of European laws, I will want to see the judicial system applying them and consumers seeing the real limits because they tend to be a lot of fanfare, window dressing, misleading statements (the famous 2nd year of the EU 2-years warranty), and tons of loopholes for corporations to abuse. We will see.

Also, it will take a while before all states ratify and implement the law and depending on the matter you see a lot of member states dragging their feet or trying to skirt the issue entirely.

I agree with this. If this is implemented exactly as the OP envisions and Europeans are sticking it to EA with quick and easy refunds while we savages in America look on in wonder, then this thread title might make sense. But right now it looks like Leon Lett high stepping to the endzone as Steve Tasker closes in.

 

[Joni]

What about Early Access or games in Beta? Is it trickier for the consumer to get a refund on a product that isn't finished? Let's say the frame rate or a way too narrow FOV makes it unplayable for example. Would you as a consumer get a refund if a game makes you feel ill?

You'd be buying a product that is advertised as unfinished and incomplete, so probably not. They're quite clear in what they're selling.

 

[Principate]

Who decides that a game is faulty or working as intended?

No game is perfect and all of them could be deemed faulty in some way surely?

You could say the same of all physical products.

 

[dr_octagon]

Who decides that a game is faulty or working as intended?

No game is perfect and all of them could be deemed faulty in some way surely?

They've taken that into consideration and understand that some issues may arise with software and allow for patches and updates. It gives an opportunity for the seller to address these problems and provide a fix. But if a game mode is unplayable, error with saving or the game keeps crashing, you would be safe to call it faulty.

 

[ShinMaruku]

This is incredible. It's baffling how companies mistreat people in the USA. I hope this will make game companies more reluctant to screw over gamers.

Here in the US we have a large percentage 30% that will always vote against their interests .

Then you have mislead low information people in a larger percentage. This has happened before in the Gilded Age. It only stopped after the great depression and WWII and 4 terms of an extraordinary president and 2 terms of his successor.

So it could be fixed temporarily again or we have leaders who are statesmen and not charlatans.

Who knows when I can fix this and how?

 

[luxarific]

Totally.

The people who always side with companies fucking suck. "You're entitled if you think you deserve a patch/refund for your buggy game". Shut up.

I'm as pro-consumer as they come, but people who play through the entire game and then try to get a refund because they "don't like the ending"? Come on, son.

 

[dr_octagon]

Hopefully it is a good step forward and make no mistake, I am pro the concept behind the European Union, I would just like it to be more united, more like a United States if Europe of sorts, but you cannot and should not force it on EU citizens... You can hope they recognize the need to break down nationalistic ideological barriers. I will stop the rant here .

I know what you are saying and not all member states behave in the same manner. It won't be perfect for everyone but it's definitely a positive step. This isn't an endorsement for the EU as a whole but more about encouraging people to exercise their consumer rights. In theory, it should apply to all member states equally and the benefits are self evident. It's filled a gap which existed and it may bring new problems but that's for another time.