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[Rootbeer]

In this special two-part episode (part two next week), Ira Glass and team examine America's police force, particularly Milwaukee, in the wake of the high-profile Garner/Brown deaths.

There are so many cops who look at the killing of Eric Garner or Mike Brown and say race didn't play a factor. And there are tons of black people who say that's insane. There's a division between people who distrust the police — even fear them — and people who see cops as a force for good. Stories of people living on both sides of that divide, and people trying to bridge it.

ACT ONE
In 2008, the Milwaukee Police Department, which has a long history of tension with black residents, got a new chief named Ed Flynn. One of his big goals when he came to the city was to try and improve the relationship between cops and black Milwaukeeans. Producer Brian Reed shadows some Milwaukee officers, to see what the department is trying. Brian also tells the story of Derek Williams, who died in police custody, and asks Chief Flynn why his officers ignored Williams even though he kept saying, "I can't breathe." (20 minutes)

ACT TWO
Brian continues his story. Chief Flynn implements Milwaukee's version of stop and frisk, but some officers start illegally searching residents. An officer shoots and kills a black man in a park across from City Hall. And tensions erupt at a monthly Fire and Police Commission Meeting. Plus, Brian tags along as officers try to solve a shooting case. (31 minutes)

https://soundcloud.com/this-american-life/547-cops-see-it-differently-part-one
(to embed soundcloud links on GAF, use Youtube Me Again!)

*edit 2/15* Part 2 is up
https://soundcloud.com/this-american-life/promo-for-548-cops-see-it-differently-part-two
http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/548/cops-see-it-differently-part-two

Episode on their website
Transcript

choice quotes:

Ed Flynn
Cops start out empathetic or they wouldn't be doing this in the first place. You come to a police academy graduation, you talk to officers in training. They're dying to get out there and help people. But as the social net has frayed, cops are spending enormous amounts of time with the social problems that society's taken a walk on, and night after night after night, police officers go through the same problems for which there are no solutions.

The people that are police officers are regular people just like you, and they have faced the same kind of long term stresses on their equilibrium that anybody who is deployed year after year after year to Iraq and Afghanistan experiences. It happens more rapidly in a war zone, obviously, but the same dynamics are working on America's police officers every day on the streets of our cities, and they do harden themselves. They have to.

 

[Dr. Benton Quest]

Not sure if I buy empathy as the motivating factor in becoming a cop. A lot of the guys I see in training just want to hunt and hurt. A staggering amount are former military as well.

 

[Gordon Shumway]

Not sure if I buy empathy as the motivating factor in becoming a cop. A lot of the guys I see in training just want to hunt and hurt. A staggering amount are former military as well.

Yup. I happen to know some folk like that.

The people that are police officers are regular people just like you, and they have faced the same kind of long term stresses on their equilibrium that anybody who is deployed year after year after year to Iraq and Afghanistan experiences. It happens more rapidly in a war zone, obviously, but the same dynamics are working on America's police officers every day on the streets of our cities, and they do harden themselves. They have to.

Sounds like we need a heavy rotation, if things are that bad. Not buying that shit as an excuse, either. Plenty of great cops out there not flying off the handle..

 

[Mumei]

This sounds interesting. Thanks for posting.

 

[The Technomancer]

Yeah, I'll definitely give this a listen. Because I do actually believe that most cops really do believe the perspectives they express with the best of intentions. Thats kind of exactly the problem really...

 

[GrizzleBoy]

Or maaaaaaybe they act like pricks because its sanctioned by the government.

A gang of people who are given lawful rights to act like pricks. When you join the force, you join that gang. If you hang around with people who are accustomed to behaving like pricks for eight hours a day, you'll become one too. Regardless of whether you joined the gang wanting to be one or not. Join the culture and it'll become you.

And there is a culture. You wear the clothes, your colleagues are your family, you agree to spoken and unspoken "codes" so that your "family" will have your back when needed. Physically on the street, or written in a report.

Give a man true freedom to fuck with people and you can guarantee that at some point, that man is going to fuck with someone. The extentdepends on the person and situation of course.

When the power to duck with someone extends to the ability to kill those they should be protecting and be punished with paid leave, the chances of the man taking advantage of his power goes up just that little bit more.

When a member of swat can be part of a raid, shoot upnan 11 year old girl sleeping next to her grandmother and walk like nothing happened, maybe theres something wrong with that system where there actually isn't a consequence for not protecting the people you're being paid to protect?

I'd just brainstorming.

 

[War Peaceman]

Yup. I happen to know some folk like that.

Sounds like we need a heavy rotation, if things are that bad. Not buying that shit as an excuse, either. Plenty of great cops out there not flying off the handle..

Why is the problem so much more severe in the USA than in other First World countries?

 

[Dwalls]

Why is the problem so much more severe in the USA than in other First World countries?

Because guns are so culturally engrained in their society that it dramatically raises the stakes of any interaction which may possibly end up escalating into violence? Police officers carry guns here too, most of them haven't unholstered it during duty once.

 

[War Peaceman]

Because guns are so culturally engrained in your society that it dramatically raises the stakes of any interaction which may possibly end up escalating into violence? Police officers carry guns here too, most of them haven't unholstered it during duty once.

I'm not from the US. It was a sincere question . Guns are likely a factor, sure.

 

[Owensboro]

Not sure if I buy empathy as the motivating factor in becoming a cop. A lot of the guys I see in training just want to hunt and hurt. A staggering amount are former military as well.

Do you work closely with a Police Academy?

 

[Dr. Benton Quest]

Do you work closely with a Police Academy?

I work very closely with police. The recruits that make it through the Academy are assigned a Field Training Officer for nine weeks, and I see those recruits often.

 

[Someglan]

I love Radiolab. I can't wait to listen to this one.

 

[bsod]

Thanks for posting this. I have a few friends in the Milwaukee PD, so I know about the racial tension that cities has, and the problems between the new police chief and a lot of the other officers there. Will definitely give a listen.

 

[Foxy Fox 39]

Good episode. Seems very on the fence though. As if to say is is both peoples fault and cops fault they behave the easy they do and I'm just not buying that argument.

 

[daman824]

There definitely needs to be a change in how things are handled in America. But people who put the blame entirely on either side are wrong. Eric Garner was a horrible incident, and the officer responsible should have been charged.

But at the exact same time, we pay cops absolute shit wages and yet go on and on about how they need to spend even more of their money and time on schooling and training.

Also, anecdotal stories aside, I definitely buy that most cops join in because they want to do good. It's an incredibly stressful job that pays horribly. Satisfaction that you're keeping people safe and helping them has to be the reason a vast amount of people join.

 

[Wreav]

Good episode. Seems very on the fence though. As if to say is is both peoples fault and cops fault they behave the easy they do and I'm just not buying that argument.

You thought there was a black and white answer with a clear and easy solution?

 

[entremet]

Not sure if I buy empathy as the motivating factor in becoming a cop. A lot of the guys I see in training just want to hunt and hurt. A staggering amount are former military as well.

The former military makes sense though.

Think about the skill set for being a soldier and the job opportunities after that. Unless you do a more technical based MOS. But if you were a Marine, what other jobs would you quality for that have such as decent salary and benefits?

And many police forces accept military service in lieu of college experience.

The military connection makes tons of sense.

 

[Nappuccino]

I work very closely with police. The recruits that make it through the Academy are assigned a Field Training Officer for nine weeks, and I see those recruits often.

The problem with interviewing the people in question is they probably do think they're there to help instead of hurt. Or at the very least, they know better than to say hurt during interviews and research studies.

 

[Fuchsdh]

Because guns are so culturally engrained in their society that it dramatically raises the stakes of any interaction which may possibly end up escalating into violence? Police officers carry guns here too, most of them haven't unholstered it during duty once.

Most US cops don't fire their weapons either though.

 

[Foxy Fox 39]

You thought there was a black and white answer with a clear and easy solution?

No. But if a parent punches a child in the face and when confronted says, "Well, They started it" it doesn't really sit with me well. And this episode while good, tried to give legitimacy to the equivalent of a parent punching a child in the face under the guise of being fair and balanced. Yeah they did "start" it but your response was not appropriate for the position you've sworn to uphold and the people you're protecting.

It's up to cops to be above reproach, not citizens. I know its a hard job but like the episode briefly touched on most cops don't even think of the people they're policing as people.

People are always going to break the law. That doesn't mean because citizens are breaking the law and being rude it gives cops free reign to misbehave towards citizens because the citizens "started it".

 

[collige]

No. But if a parent punches a child in the face and when confronted says, "Well, They started it" it doesn't really sit with me well. And this episode while good, tried to give legitimacy to the equivalent of a parent punching a child in the face under the guise of being fair and balanced. Yeah they did "start" it but your response was not appropriate for the position you've sworn to uphold and the people you're protecting.

It's up to cops to be above reproach, not citizens. I know its a hard job but like the episode briefly touched on most cops don't even think of the people they're policing as people.

People are always going to break the law. That doesn't mean because citizens are breaking the law and being rude it gives cops free reign to misbehave towards citizens because the citizens "started it".

I dunno. The episode had to give fair interviews with police members and while they did put forward good points, by the end of the episode it looks pretty damning for how the MPD both conducts day to day interactions with people (the anecdotes about the traffic stop and the gunshots) as well as how officer misconduct is handled.

 

[FStop7]

The militarization of the police is one of the worst things to happen to this country.

Every time a cop denies being a civilian, I cringe. That in of itself is a serious indicator of how bad it's gotten.

 

[NegroNinja]

The biggest problem is that police officers feel like they are no longer American citizens, they feel like they are truly above us and especially above the law. Until that changes and they are made to realize that the special privilege shit is over, which I don't see happening anytime soon, then this civilian and officer divide will only get larger.

 

[BattleMonkey]

I know a bunch of cops, and many do wish to help people, many are great guys and gals, but it does seem to be amongst all of them, that they do fear the general populace. The whole gun issue and such in the US has them all on edge for every minor thing, they always are ready to go even during a minor traffic stop. In a place like here in Miami, they also have often dealt with dangerous situations or have colleagues who have died in the line of duty or dealt with police shootings (getting shot at). It's not a good thing to deal with, you got officers scared and its going to make them jumpy on the trigger.

 

[Chichikov]

Very good episode, people should give it a listen.

Though I think the most important quote is an almost throwaway line by the Milwaukee chief of police - "as the social net has frayed, cops are spending enormous amounts of time with the social problems that society's taken a walk on".
They didn't really touch on that point too much, but I think that's what this really boil into, yeah, there's racism, police misconducted, closing ranks, distrust, all of that is true, but at the end of the day, the US had turned its back on whole lot of poor people, and they expect cops to keep a lid on those neighborhood.
That shit cannot work, and it's not only unfair to citizens, it's unfair to cops.

p.s.
I didn't even know about about the Frank Jude story, Jesus fucking Christ.

 

[Rootbeer]

I'm glad people are digging the episode.

I will update the topic once Part 2 is out.

 

[Dalek]

Part 2 is up, and if you thought Part 1 was crazy-the first story in Part 2 will make your head fucking explode.

 

[ShooterMcGavin]

The biggest problem is that police officers feel like they are no longer American citizens, they feel like they are truly above us and especially above the law. Until that changes and they are made to realize that the special privilege shit is over, which I don't see happening anytime soon, then this civilian and officer divide will only get larger.

You know this is a gross generalization, correct? I will NOT defend the actions of every single cop, but don't try grouping them like this. That's not fair to the good ones.

 

[Rootbeer]

Thanks for the bump!

http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/548/cops-see-it-differently-part-two

 

[esms]

You know this is a gross generalization, correct? I will NOT defend the actions of every single cop, but don't try grouping them like this. That's not fair to the good ones.

Unfortunately, the "good cop" is near extinction. Any cop who isn't willing to stand up to the gross negligence and brutality of their peers doesn't deserve to be called good.

 

[ShooterMcGavin]

Unfortunately, the "good cop" is near extinction. Any cop who isn't willing to stand up to the gross negligence and brutality of their peers doesn't deserve to be called good.

So all workers need to protest when their occupational peers do something corrupt and terrible? Looks like we all have some work to do.

 

[Seventy70]

You know this is a gross generalization, correct? I will NOT defend the actions of every single cop, but don't try grouping them like this. That's not fair to the good ones.

Why don't all of these "good cops" have the same attitude? It seems like just about every cop is ready to blindly take the side of another cop. If every "good cop" were to come out and condemn the bad cops, maybe their image wouldn't be the way it is? If you ask a cop if racism is a problem with the police, they will say, "I don't see it." Of course cops are going to have a bad reputation when they don't look at the perspective of civilians.

Rather than coming out, acknowledging the problems with the system and working to fix it, they try to sweep as much as they can under the rug for their friends and coworkers.

Until this shit gets fixed, EVERY cop deserves to be ridiculed for not standing up against others misusing their power.

 

[theignoramus]

Because guns are so culturally engrained in their society that it dramatically raises the stakes of any interaction which may possibly end up escalating into violence? Police officers carry guns here too, most of them haven't unholstered it during duty once.

Im not sure American gun culture is the sole reason why a black guy driving a nice car gets pulled over by the cops.

 

[ItIsOkBro]

So all workers need to protest when their occupational peers do something corrupt and terrible? Looks like we all have some work to do.

where exactly are we all working where we let our fellow peers get away with assault and murder?

 

[Brakke]

Listened to the second ep up through running a seven year old's name for warrants. Shit is ridiculous.

 

[ShooterMcGavin]

where exactly are we all working where we let our fellow peers get away with assault and murder?

What exactly (and I would like specifics) do you want "good" cops to do then? It doesn't seem fair that an individual just doing their job should be put down because of the actions of his or her peers.

 

[Xe4]

Unfortunately, the "good cop" is near extinction. Any cop who isn't willing to stand up to the gross negligence and brutality of their peers doesn't deserve to be called good.

Stop.

Many if not most cops are good, hardworking people. Many joined the force to make a paycheck, some joined to help their communities. And yes, some are on the police force, to be egotistical assholes who hold power over people. But they are not in the majority.

The problem in a police force, is not that there are too many bad cops, but that the system is set up so that even the god cops are obligated to protect the bad ones. Police unions, more than anything else are a large reason for corruption in the first place.

I'm not an expert on this issue, I'm sure someone will correct me on this, but I know for damn sure that you saying there aren't any good cops, is about as insulting as saying that there aren't any stevedore's who aren't alcholics. Don't generalize a group by the actions of a few. Criticize or praise a group by the reactions they take to the actions of the few.

 

[Seventy70]

What exactly (and I would like specifics) do you want "good" cops to do then? It doesn't seem fair that an individual just doing their job should be put down because of the actions of his or her peers.

They need to change their attitude towards it and say that there will be zero tolerance for it and will be fired and charged(for misusing their power along with the crime itself). If any cop is caught trying to cover for another cop, they will also be punished. That's what needs to happen. Right now you just have a giant gang of people that will cover each other no matter what.

 

[WickedCobra03]

I listened to part 1 on the radio. It's nuts how a lot of these stories from Milwaukee hasn't even made national impact.

I think there needs to be changes on both sides. I just always try to think of how a lot of times that "To Protect And Serve" seems like it is more of an outdated motto than a current mantra.

 

[ArkhamFantasy]

They need to change their attitude towards it and say that there will be zero tolerance for it and will be fired and charged(for misusing their power along with the crime itself). If any cop is caught trying to cover for another cop, they will also be punished. That's what needs to happen. Right now you just have a giant gang of people that will cover each other no matter what.

I have to agree, it would make them think twice about it at the very least.

 

[Makai]

This sounds interesting. Thanks for posting.

Is nobody a mod anymore?

 

[ShooterMcGavin]

They need to change their attitude towards it and say that there will be zero tolerance for it and will be fired and charged(for misusing their power along with the crime itself). If any cop is caught trying to cover for another cop, they will also be punished. That's what needs to happen. Right now you just have a giant gang of people that will cover each other no matter what.

Putting a stop to corruption in the force? I can absolutely agree with that.

I'm not buying the generalizations though, stating ALL cops are in on this, and ALL cops have intrinsically evil motives. (not calling you out, but others who have hinted at this in the thread)

 

[M0nochromatic]

I think one of the key ways the American Police Force can be saved from it's current broken state is to establish some way to combat The Blue Wall of Silence. Relying on the good cops to out their superiors and colleagues isn't viable. We also need to hold those in law enforcement to a higher standard then we do criminals or the citizens they're supposed to protect and serve. That means tighter regulations and harsher punishments for when they act unlawfully.

Getting support for such measures would be more difficult then constructing them.

 

[ReBurn]

Thanks for the reminder that I need to download the second part.

 

[esms]

So all workers need to protest when their occupational peers do something corrupt and terrible? Looks like we all have some work to do.

Yeah, we do.

Stop.

Many if not most cops are good, hardworking people. Many joined the force to make a paycheck, some joined to help their communities. And yes, some are on the police force, to be egotistical assholes who hold power over people. But they are not in the majority.

The problem in a police force, is not that there are too many bad cops, but that the system is set up so that even the god cops are obligated to protect the bad ones. Police unions, more than anything else are a large reason for corruption in the first place.

I'm not an expert on this issue, I'm sure someone will correct me on this, but I know for damn sure that you saying there aren't any good cops, is about as insulting as saying that there aren't any black who aren't thugs. Don't generalize a group by the actions of a few. Criticize or praise a group by the reactions they take to the actions of the few.

I have a friend of a friend that's a cop. He's a good shit. But his unwillingness to speak up against his fellow cops makes him a shit cop. Do you see what I bolded in your quote? If a "good" cop isn't willing to protest a system that protects bad cops, than he himself is a bad cop. That's just the way it is.

I don't deny that unions don't have a lot to do with the mentality of cops today because they do. But the brotherhood thought process that cops go through when defending their own is despicable and deserves criticism.

 

[RadarScope1]

Thanks OP. Will definitely give this a listen.

 

[KingK]

Not sure if I buy empathy as the motivating factor in becoming a cop. A lot of the guys I see in training just want to hunt and hurt. A staggering amount are former military as well.

Yeah i know a couple cops like that. One was my best friend in middle school and much of high school. He had already been becoming kind of an asshole, then he joined the army. When he got back he was a complete dick. Now he's a cop.

 

[ItIsOkBro]

What exactly (and I would like specifics) do you want "good" cops to do then? It doesn't seem fair that an individual just doing their job should be put down because of the actions of his or her peers.

Let's say we didn't have the dash-cam footage of that Indian man getting body slammed. The witnessing officers (there were 2 I believe) should come forward and say the officer was way out of line. That alone should be enough to take swift action. Instead, even with the dashcam footage, what we got for almost a week was a statement that the Indian man was resisting arrest.

 

[Xe4]

Yeah, we do.



I have a friend of a friend that's a cop. He's a good shit. But his unwillingness to speak up against his fellow cops makes him a shit cop. Do you see what I bolded in your quote? If a "good" cop isn't willing to protest a system that protects bad cops, than he himself is a bad cop. That's just the way it is.

I don't deny that unions don't have a lot to do with the mentality of cops today because they do. But the brotherhood thought process that cops go through when defending their own is despicable and deserves criticism.

You're oversimplifying the matter. Not everyone can be a ghandi, not everyone can be an MLK. Not wanting mess up your life to protest a system does not make you a bad person. Hell, many cops just live day to day writing tickets for people. They are far removed from any sort of police shooting or corruption. Are they bad cops, just because they want to support a family.

People have tried blowing the whistle on corrupt police departments, and it usually ends up badly for them and for their families. It's a horrible reality, and I would never expect police to put their loved ones at risk by standing up to especially corrupt police departments, just as I would never expect citizens to protest a corrupt government.

What we need is national reform, to allow police to not be a part of a union, and to speak up without being in fear of their jobs, and reform that is more punishing towards those who abuse their power.

What we don't need is to start needlessly labeling all police as bad. It will lead to a lot of hostility and labeling of police that should be avoided, not encouraged.

 

[Cipherr]

Jesus Christ at the first story in the second half. I can't even listen to the rest.... shit is ridiculous.