Support NeoGAF

[Golden_Pigeon]

There's a reasonably clear line of argument that House of Saud were very happy with the exporting the more extremist forms of Wahhabism as a counterpoint to Iranian influence in some of the post colonial constructs where Sunni and Shite mixed. It's gotten out of hand, but they were very slow to turn off the indirect funding tap from their own citizens (and occasionally family members).

Yup, but not the form they view as altered by Qutbism. They have a very hardcore anti-MB stance since the 80s. We saw it also with the saudi support of Al Nur party in Egypt against Morsi and in favour of Sisi.
They even accuse sufism to be the origin of Al Qaida/MB.

It's probably true that some part of arabian peninsula nobility (not the saud) is supporting ISIS, because they would profit from a shift of power.

 

[Golden_Pigeon]

Whataboutism at its finest.

Somebody said that it was something very brave to say. I'm not doing whataboutism, i'm just rebuking. There is nothing original or brave to says that Saudi Arabia is promoting terrorism. (it's true historically though, especially when we speak about Chechnya war where official clerics supported suicid bombing against russian civilians) But to resume ISIS and AQ terrorism as "saudi sponsored ideology" is just lazy thinking.
Even Trump used to said something along this line.

 

[RiZ III]

He's not wrong. Saudis have funded jihadis and fundamentalist schools since the 80s for the sole purpose of brainwashing children to go and fight. Isis, although mostly a political organization run by ex-saddam military brass, has its religious ideology based on Saudi Wahhabism.

 

[Golden_Pigeon]

It's too hard to discuss that kind of issue on a message board where people oversimplify what you say and don't know your references but are trying to bring unrelated historical ones (stalinism/maoism-european facsisms)

Don't worry i am pretty used to it. It's a miracle that nobody called me a wahhabi by now.
It's pretty sad that people don't bother studying those subjects before having such a strong opinion about it.

Saudi influence is very nefarious in the muslim world. Wahhabism consider that most muslims (myself included) to be apostates/heretics. So i don't have any kind of love for the ideology nor the leadership, but i hate even more the political manipulation from Iran/Hezbollah/Russia/Assad who try to portray the syrian civil war as a manipulation from Saudi Arabia. This reading of event is also shared by many populist movement in the West. Corbyn is PRETTY ambiguous about Assad and his crimes.

 

[Zvonimir Boban]

this guy has been saying the same thing since 2003

Why havent u guys elected this man?

He doesn't hate poor people and foreigners with every fibre of his being, which makes him an unelectable madman.

 

[Heshinsi]

Don't worry i am pretty used to it. It's a miracle that nobody called me a wahhabi by now.
It's pretty sad that people don't bother studying those subjects before having such a strong opinion about it.

Saudi influence is very nefarious in the muslim world. Wahhabism consider that most muslims (myself included) to be apostates/heretics. So i don't have any kind of love for the ideology nor the leadership, but i hate even more the political manipulation from Iran/Hezbollah/Russia/Assad who try to portray the syrian civil war as a manipulation from Saudi Arabia. This reading of event is also shared by many populist movement in the West. Corbyn is PRETTY ambiguous about Assad and his crimes.

Here's why no one cares what spin Iran and Hezbollah give for what's happening in Syria. Shiite Muslims aren't blowing, shooting, stabbing, and running over people in the West and/or any other places outside of war zones in the Middle East. When you've got Sunni Jihadis killing people in the streets of Western cities, I don't think it matters to me what Iran has to say about the Syrian civil war.

Here's what I know about Saudi Arabia and its involvement in neighbouring countries since 2011. Saudi Arabian troops in command of the Gulf Cooperation Forces, entered Bahrain and crushed unarmed Shiite protesters, at the behest of the ruling Sunni monarchy. Saudi Arabia then involved itself in the civil war in next door Yemen, and as I type this, are in the process of turning that country into the world's largest open air parking lot. So excuse me if it doesn't seem too fantastical a leap, for Saudi Arabia to be arming, funding, and/or providing material support to certain groups in Syria who are fundamentalist wahhabi jihadi groups.

They even accuse sufism to be the origin of Al Qaida/MB.

Ah, that should tell you all you need to know about the heights the Saudis would go to in spreading their lies. Sufism whom Muhammad ibn Wahhab and his followers hated, is the origin of Al Qaida and MB according to Saudi Arabia? Hahaha. Let me guess, this is also the point they would tell us that ISIS is a creation of Israel eh? lol. Fucking Saudi Arabia.

 

[Golden_Pigeon]

Here's why no one cares what spin Iran and Hezbollah give for what's happening in Syria. Shiite Muslims aren't blowing, shooting, stabbing, and running over people in the West and/or any other places outside of war zones in the Middle East. When you've got Sunni Jihadis killing people in the streets of Western cities, I don't think it matters to me what Iran has to say about the Syrian civil war.

Where is "here" ? In Neogaf we can speak only about what the West is concerned ? If terrorist group are not killing westerners, we should not speak about them ? I am fully aware that nobody would even have heard about wahhabism or MB if AQ/ISIS would not have directly killed westerners, that doesn't mean that AQ/ISIS are worst than their shiite counterpart. Iraqi shiite militia were accused by human right organization of ethnic cleansing and crimes against humanity. Since they don't represent a threat for Paris, New York or London, they are the lesser evil? I recall you that Iranian relationship with AQ and Afghans Talibans are not always bad, especially with the latter. Shiite-sunnite split don't explain anything.

Iran and shi'a militia are actively SLAUGHTERING the syrian people since 2012. It's not only words. Also, sectarian attitude of Iran, Iraq and Assad had a big role in the development of ISIS in sunni dominated area, it, at least at the beginning, explain why the people were not so reluctant when they saw ISIS overtaking their cities.

Here's what I know about Saudi Arabia and its involvement in neighbouring countries since 2011. Saudi Arabian troops in command of the Gulf Cooperation Forces, entered Bahrain and crushed unarmed Shiite protesters, at the behest of the ruling Sunni monarchy. Saudi Arabia then involved itself in the civil war in next door Yemen, and as I type this, are in the process of turning that country into the world's largest open air parking lot. So excuse me if it doesn't seem too fantastical a leap, for Saudi Arabia to be arming, funding, and/or providing material support to certain groups in Syria who are fundamentalist wahhabi jihadi groups.

Iran did exactly the same thing in Syria that AS did in Bahrain. You cannot have double standards. Both are equally wrong.
It's not a fantastic leap to do, but it's not true. Saudi Arabia is not supporting jihadi wahhabi (AQ-ISIS) group in Syria, they are supporting the FSA and FSA affiliated groups because of course they have a common interest to see Assad fall, since they see him (not without some reason to do so) as an iranian puppet. Saudi Arabia clerics didn't call for jihad in Syria while they did call a jihad against russians in Afghanistan and Chechnya. In 2017, "Salafiyya jihadiyya" (every terrorist group who follow wahhabi doctrine) hate Saudi Arabia as they see them as an USA-puppet (not without some reason to do so ).

In Yemen, AS is not supporting any jihadi group but the central of the government (which is the result of 2011 revolution) against Houthi rebels. Those "nice shiite" have as a political slogan "Death to Americans/Death to Jews" written on their ak-47.

Ah, that should tell you all you need to know about the heights the Saudis would go to in spreading their lies. Sufism whom Muhammad ibn Wahhab and his followers hated, is the origin of Al Qaida and MB according to Saudi Arabia? Hahaha. Let me guess, this is also the point they would tell us that ISIS is a creation of Israel eh? lol. Fucking Saudi Arabia.

You can find this line of thought directly on saudi-fueled propaganda machine. They don't consider AQ or ISIS to be wahhabi as all.
I don't understand why you're laughing about MB link to sufism though, Hassan al-Banna was initiated in a sufi order and was not wahhabi. It's how wahhabi propaganda find the argument to make the (ridicule) stretch Hassan al-Banna > Qutb > Ayman Zawahiri > Bin Laden > Al Zarkawi > ISIS.

 

[hiptanaka]

Wow, a politician who speaks the truth.

 

[AcademicSaucer]

Wow, a politician who speaks the truth.

He is going to lose isn't he?

 

[Sobriquet]

Yeah well wait til he sees their magic orb

Spoiler

This is amazing. I wish the US could/would do this, especially when Obama was Pres.

 

[sphagnum]

He is going to lose isn't he?

Yes, but the fact that Labour has come back as strong as it has means there's hope going forward.

 

[Spoiled Milk]

This is amazing. I wish the US could/would do this, especially when Obama was Pres.

And miss out on $350 billion for our merchants of death? In your dreams!

 

[Doctor_Thomas]

UK sells weapons and sends funding to Saudi Arabia, Saudia Arabia sends weapons and funding to IS, IS attack the UK.

May gets up and says how awful the attacks are and how things need to change, but the money talks and it's worth more than any victims.

That's the sad truth of the whole thing.

 

[Kin5290]

So, as I understand it, there are wealthy elements in the KSA, including those within the Saudi royal family (which is, of course massive), who likely directly fund Sunni Islamist terrorist groups, although the KSA does not. The KSA does openly support the spread of Wahhabism (which provides the ideological underpinnings of those terrorist groups).

Doesn't Iran openly fund Shia Islamist militias and terrorist groups?

This isn't meant to be a whataboutism. This just reminds me of the Cold War, with both US and USSR funding capitalist or communist militias and regimes as proxy forces against the other. Only this time the first and second world powers (in the original Cold War sense) are caught up in the overspilling outer conflict, while largely ignoring the inner conflict between Sunni and Shia nations.

Or it's possible I'm horribly off base, which wouldn't be a surprise.

 

[Thornton Reed]

I've just read the write up of Corbyns speech on the mail and even they regarded as a powerful and hard hitting speech. No negative spin from them.

 

[Golden_Pigeon]

So, as I understand it, there are wealthy elements in the KSA, including those within the Saudi royal family (which is, of course massive), who likely directly fund Sunni Islamist terrorist groups, although the KSA does not. The KSA does openly support the spread of Wahhabism (which provides the ideological underpinnings of those terrorist groups).

Doesn't Iran openly fund Shia Islamist militias and terrorist groups?

Yes and yes. (although if you talking about ISIS/AQ, i think it's will come more from other noble family than the Saudi)
Iran fund and command Hezbollah militia, and Hezbollah leader Hassan Nasrallah is under direct command of Supreme Leader Khamenei. They believe in the iranian doctrine of Wilayat al Faqih (litteraly: The Authority of the Jurist), who give full authority to Khamenei over ALL muslims.
Iran also train, fund and command many iraqi militias, they also have some afghans group in Syria.
The houthi in Yemen are also getting themselves "iranianized" and they are moving toward khomeinist rhetorics when they are really shi'a to begin with (they follow zaydism, which is kind of in-between).
They are suspected to have a influence over the dramatic event of Buenos Aires in the 90's where a jewish center was attacked and like 100 people were killed.
They also have a growing influence in Nigeria.

It's pretty funny that now sunni are the bad guys in the western narrative when 30 years ago, it was the shi'a. There is always the need to find and designate the bad guys. Those thing of course have nothing to do with shia or sunni doctrine, it's just a gross use of religious symbology for political gain. Wahhabism is as foreign to traditional sunnism than khomeinism to traditional shi'ism.

 

[Tonedeff]

This isn't meant to be a whataboutism. This just reminds me of the Cold War, with both US and USSR funding capitalist or communist militias and regimes as proxy forces against the other. Only this time the first and second world powers (in the original Cold War sense) are caught up in the overspilling outer conflict, while largely ignoring the inner conflict between Sunni and Shia nations.

Never thought of it this way

 

[openrob]

Just a populist statement.

If ISIS and Saudi Arabia have a shared DNA (wahhabi reform), Saudi Arabia represent the archenemy for ISIS/AlQaida. They call the royal familia "Salul" in reference with a double-faced individual who were working with the pagans against the muslims pretending to be muslims during the time of the Prophet Muhammad ﷺ.

It's just on par with the corbynists crypto-assadist position on Syria. It's not as much an attack on ISIS that an indirect attack against syrian rebels. You will never heard him speak ill about the nefarious role of Iran in M-E when they are fuelling a lot of group as sectarian and terrorist as ISIS.

A lot of people on the left are buying the propaganda of the Assad regime, who see Saudi Arabia as the organizer of the chaos in Syria. To be fair, Saudi Arabia do exactly the same thing with Iran, they call their own political opposition iranian puppets.

The thing is it is all just propaganda. If we just had a straightforward conversation acknowledging that pretty much any one we work with isn't exactly wholesome, but that for the sake of stability and a good economy we have to work with people that we might not like to work with, then it wouldn't be so hypocritical.

But when people like Theresa May make sweeping statements condemning one country or another whilst working with a country just as bad, it proves that those in charge do not care or respect the general public.

 

[GarthVaderUK]

Piers Morgan asked Conservative Karen Bradley about it this morning:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tS1dp-M8NB4

 

[Kralamoonard]

Where is "here" ? In Neogaf we can speak only about what the West is concerned ? If terrorist group are not killing westerners, we should not speak about them ? I am fully aware that nobody would even have heard about wahhabism or MB if AQ/ISIS would not have directly killed westerners, that doesn't mean that AQ/ISIS are worst than their shiite counterpart. Iraqi shiite militia were accused by human right organization of ethnic cleansing and crimes against humanity. Since they don't represent a threat for Paris, New York or London, they are the lesser evil? I recall you that Iranian relationship with AQ and Afghans Talibans are not always bad, especially with the latter. Shiite-sunnite split don't explain anything.

Iran and shi'a militia are actively SLAUGHTERING the syrian people since 2012. It's not only words. Also, sectarian attitude of Iran, Iraq and Assad had a big role in the development of ISIS in sunni dominated area, it, at least at the beginning, explain why the people were not so reluctant when they saw ISIS overtaking their cities.




Iran did exactly the same thing in Syria that AS did in Bahrain. You cannot have double standards. Both are equally wrong.
It's not a fantastic leap to do, but it's not true. Saudi Arabia is not supporting jihadi wahhabi (AQ-ISIS) group in Syria, they are supporting the FSA and FSA affiliated groups because of course they have a common interest to see Assad fall, since they see him (not without some reason to do so) as an iranian puppet. Saudi Arabia clerics didn't call for jihad in Syria while they did call a jihad against russians in Afghanistan and Chechnya. In 2017, "Salafiyya jihadiyya" (every terrorist group who follow wahhabi doctrine) hate Saudi Arabia as they see them as an USA-puppet (not without some reason to do so ).

In Yemen, AS is not supporting any jihadi group but the central of the government (which is the result of 2011 revolution) against Houthi rebels. Those "nice shiite" have as a political slogan "Death to Americans/Death to Jews" written on their ak-47.




You can find this line of thought directly on saudi-fueled propaganda machine. They don't consider AQ or ISIS to be wahhabi as all.
I don't understand why you're laughing about MB link to sufism though, Hassan al-Banna was initiated in a sufi order and was not wahhabi. It's how wahhabi propaganda find the argument to make the (ridicule) stretch Hassan al-Banna > Qutb > Ayman Zawahiri > Bin Laden > Al Zarkawi > ISIS.

I really can't anything inherently wrong or 'extreme' in this post. There's a lot of truth here. Not sure why people are resorting to personal attacks rather than replying specifically to the points mentioned, however much they disagree or it frustrates them. At the end of the day, the latter can only resort to productive discussions, and people on the outside who don't know that much (like me) can learn something.

 

[WhatNXt]

So, as I understand it, there are wealthy elements in the KSA, including those within the Saudi royal family (which is, of course massive), who likely directly fund Sunni Islamist terrorist groups, although the KSA does not. The KSA does openly support the spread of Wahhabism (which provides the ideological underpinnings of those terrorist groups).

Doesn't Iran openly fund Shia Islamist militias and terrorist groups?

This isn't meant to be a whataboutism. This just reminds me of the Cold War, with both US and USSR funding capitalist or communist militias and regimes as proxy forces against the other. Only this time the first and second world powers (in the original Cold War sense) are caught up in the overspilling outer conflict, while largely ignoring the inner conflict between Sunni and Shia nations.

Or it's possible I'm horribly off base, which wouldn't be a surprise.

The characterization of it as a proxy war is spot on. And to be frank, it's something we shouldn't be involved in. We shouldn't be involved in hanging our hat on any player in this global sunni shia power struggle. We are a many faced world power, trying to encourage Iran to grow more moderate and less threatening (although it's their adversaries in the region who are actually invading people), and we are funding groups and regimes that they see at times, as an existential threat. We are not the world's policeman, and we don't need to be. Our involvement is antagonistic to both sides. I realize things are more complex than that, and that energy dependency, spheres of influence and gas pipeline wars come in to play, but surely we have to recognize that things have to change.

Even if we do distance ourselves from wasteful investment and spending with foreign actors like this, and I would love us to elect someone who would - I don't believe it will disrupt the growth of this ideology at home. Ideology has no borders. We have to give our police and intelligence services the investment to monitor people and work in communities effectively, but we also need to arm them with the expertise to deal with people who have severe mental health issues, or become otherwise vulnerable to buying in to this crap.

Tougher sentences for 'lesser' crimes and mass internet surveillance aren't exactly on my top 10 desired civil-liberty clamp downs.

It's pathetic that May sends out her culture secretary to field answers on terror and policing, sends out her home secretary to a leaders debate, and wants to send a maniacal, spin-doctor-barging, kissy-face Boris to the EU to negotiate for us. If her campaign continues to wane in spite of her new bravado and scaremongering (and I hope it does), she'll have nobody to blame but herself. She's a coward! And she's had 7 years to confront these issues and help mitigate them. The police and many others are in fact saying, she's made things worse. Enough IS enough!

 

[Mung]

And water is wet

 

[Moosichu]

Winston Churchill

No, he never said that. (or no record exists supporting that.)

 

[nOoblet16]

I find it baffling how much support Saudi gets from the west. What I find even more strange is that despite the nature of relationship between Israel and Saudi the west (primarily USA) is happy to make arms deals with BOTH of them at the same time as if it's a non issue. All the while everyone is shitting on the rest of the middle east in the name of fighting extremism.

 

[Theonik]

I find it baffling how much support Saudi gets from the west. What I find even more strange is that despite the nature of relationship between Israel and Saudi the west (primarily USA) is happy to make arms deals with BOTH of them at the same time as if it's a non issue. All the while everyone is shitting on the rest of the middle East.

Because Saudi has oil and selling guns to both is money for the industrialists these governments are representing. Though it's more of an opium wars scenario where the west wants the oil so needs something the Saudis want to buy to make that affordable/keep them on their side. If SA wants guns to support wars in the region the west doesn't care so much. It was only after 9/11 that the US even started caring about Islamist extremism.

 

[Lime]

This is the exact type of politician that the Western countries need. Someone willing to call out the geopolitical ramifications of their arms trade and their imperialism in other countries in order to curb domestic terrorism and radicalization of its own citizens.

I hope you Brits choose wisely this week.

 

[nOoblet16]

This is the exact type of politician that the Western countries need. Someone willing to call out the geopolitical ramifications of their arms trade and their imperialism in other countries in order to curb domestic terrorism and radicalization of its own citizens.

I hope you Brits choose wisely this week.

I can guarantee you that this isn't going to happen. Despite what the polls suggest there will be people who won't go out to vote and people who'll end up voting conservatives because "Corbyn supported IRA", "Corbyn won't fire nuclear missiles first", "Corbyn will tax the companies and they'll leave", and there's no "magic money tree" for Corbyn to fund his plans (despite his manifesto being costed).


The best hope we have is a hung parliament followed by some sort of left coalition, which again is quite unlikely as it'd involve compromise between these parties. I hope they see that a compromise is better than having the conservatives with Theresa May in power.

 

[emag]

I find it baffling how much support Saudi gets from the west. What I find even more strange is that despite the nature of relationship between Israel and Saudi the west (primarily USA) is happy to make arms deals with BOTH of them at the same time as if it's a non issue. All the while everyone is shitting on the rest of the middle east in the name of fighting extremism.

What's baffling about any of that? It is a non-issue. Saudi is "secretly" allied with Israel, as are Egypt and the UAE. They have to keep up appearances for the domestic audiences, so the PR spin is that they're enemies, but it's just PR.

Despite the fall of the USSR, the nations of the world are still in Cold War mode, with the US/EU/Saudi/Egypt/Israel/etc. on one side and Russia/China/Iran/etc. on the other, with plenty of proxies and minor powers in between.

 

[Oriel]

Very true. Ironically though KSA and its compliant Gulf allies Bahrain and UAE have imposed a land, sea and air blockade of fellow Gulf state Qatar overnight for, lol, "supporting Islamist extremist groups" like the Muslim Brotherhood. A bit rich coming from them quite frankly. The whole bloody lot in the GCC are backers of extremist Islamist ideology, particularily KSA which actively exports hateful Wahabbist fundamentalism globally. This has to stop.

Spoiler

But think of the arms sales the West would stand to lose. /s

 

[gabbo]

But isn't this pretty much public knowledge at this point? That they fund the terrorists, while making financial / trade deals with the politicians of the affected countries.

That you need me to ask the question leads me to believe a sizable chunk of the populace in the global West has no idea

 

[AcademicSaucer]

That you need me to ask the question leads me to believe a sizable chunk of the populace in the global West has no idea

That's the fault of the Media

 

[Wanda/Wander]

I find it baffling how much support Saudi gets from the west. What I find even more strange is that despite the nature of relationship between Israel and Saudi the west (primarily USA) is happy to make arms deals with BOTH of them at the same time as if it's a non issue. All the while everyone is shitting on the rest of the middle east in the name of fighting extremism.

Perfect example of how we're living in a sort of post-reality crisis.