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Cosby to black lawmakers: Get act together
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McLesterolBeast
Member
I'll tell you what the problem with crime these days is. It's that we dont _tell_ the _criminals_.... to stop DOing the CRIMES!
Not true... KingWorld Productions (CBS) still owns the right to the Little Rascals episodes. http://www.kingworld.com/program/little.htmlFortNinety said:
The idea of buying up easily reproducable art so that nobody can have legal access to it is reprehensible.
XS+ said:
Everytime I hear someone say this shit I want slap the shit out of them. First this has nothing to do with his son. Bring his dead son into this is the lowest fucking blow you can hurl at the man. His son died what 10 years ago yet he was on a "tirade" then why now 10 years later he's on one. did he just remember his son was killed. Please get off it dude. Second "playing into the hands of racist," is bullshit. So we are supposed to act like the black community is on the rise in the face of statstic after statstic that blacks are at the bottom of the curve, BITCH PLEASE! Is this suppose to stop the racist from thing blacks are inferior because we all scream how great we are while half the black men in America get locked up, and are uneducated and can't hold a fucking decent conversation about anything other than what Puffy was wearing when he was arrested for his 6th criminal charge. I take it before Bill went on his "tirade" Rush was exstoling the greatnes of the black people and how whites are honored to be in our well educated and cultured presence, please. Bill isn't dehumanizing blacks, blacks are and if you don't like what he says then get off your lazy ass and get out and fix it rather than bitch that he's "telling" on us.
McLesterolBeast
Member
I think it's great that Bill has found a way to reach the semi-retarded black market (see shadowred) AND the semi-retarded redneck market. I mean, besides the fact that what he says is of no value. Other than that, it's great.
Fresh Prince
Banned
I think people like Shadowred also mean that he has donated money to the disadvataged black community so his words to some effect have similar actions behind them. Even though he is not treading over new ground saying this and people are not likely to be listening to him anyway.McLesterolBeast said:
ShadowRed said:
I never said Bill is dehumanizing blacks. I said that he's allowing his valid criticism of the black community to be appropriated by right-wing elements that couldn't be more disinterested in seeing the black community excise that which leaves them so defeated. Rush Limbaugh hates black people, yet he is the first to leap upon any speech by a prominent black that takes the black community to task for their behavior.
I don't know too much about Bill Cosby's exhortations on this subject but prima facie they do seem to be of little value.
That said, I'm interested in the implications of XS+'s argument. How would one construct a criticism of the 'black community' or 'black behaviour' (generalisations though these might be) without it being appropriated and exploited by racists?
That said, I'm interested in the implications of XS+'s argument. How would one construct a criticism of the 'black community' or 'black behaviour' (generalisations though these might be) without it being appropriated and exploited by racists?
Sirpopopop
Member
DarienA said:
Let me preface this by saying I agree with the crux of his arguments: That African Americans need to be more pro-active about cleaning up their neighborhoods and stopping their kids from entering gangs. That certain aspects of hip-hop culture negatively influence urban African American culture.
My problem with his arguments is that he's saying that it not the system's fault at all. That essentially it's up to African Americans to get out of their mess and that there is nothing at all wrong with "white" America (even though judging by the anecdotal evidence I have of many Asians and Indians view towards black culture, I could include them too), the educational system, or other societal problems within the state towards the majority of African Americans. That by working hard and cleaning your image up, things will be alright. Now, before you tell me to bother researching his lecture history, let me say this: Like most Americans (and yourself) I simply don't have time. All I can go by is the press I see in the paper or on the news, or from posts by Ripclawe. So if I'm miscontruing what he's saying, I'm sorry. I haven't had the time to properly delve into the issue and form a truly educated opinion of Cosby's comments. Judging by the media I've seen, the biggest effect Cosby's speeches have had is that they are picked up by the likes of Limbaugh and used as tools with which they can defend their views (as XS+ has pointed out). "See! Look at this black man, he agrees with us, our views are not racist at all!"
I'm talking about his views. I know he's done a lot for African Americans in the U.S in terms of aid. However, I feel that his speeches are doing more harm than good. While these speeches might be well intentioned and many of their points might be spot on, his method of delivery is flawed. All that's being accomplished is that he's being bashed by the politically correct folks and being lauded by the right-wing nutjobs. As long as those are the only reactions his speeches engender, what hope is there for African Americans in the "urban jungle" to heed the crux of his arguments.
McLesterolBeast
Member
Don't let the fact that he's posted in this thread fool you, I don't object (nor have i read) much of what he's written about Cosby. I just noticed the general approval of him, and he (sr) happened to fit in the category i mentioned.
Lara said:
I don't think the mere referencing of Cosby's statements are cause for censure. One must consider the history of those who would cite his criticism. Limbaugh is notorious for disparaging the black community, making his take on Cosby's statements disingenuous and insulting.
The Take Out Bandit
Member
It's anecdotal, but this reminds me of a young black mother I worked with at Target.
We were just working and chatting one day, and that one song with the chorus, "If you don't give a damn, go on throw it up" or some such, came over the radio. She mentions that she was driving around doing errands with her daughter who is like three years old or so, and suddenly her daughter starts singing along with the song; and she just gets this horrified look on her face.
Oh it was comedy gold, but there's a lesson to be learned in there.
Ned Flanders
Banned
I respect Bill greatly for what he's doing, although I think his approach naturally lends itself to a reactionary response. I agree to an extent of what XS is saying..the system is deliberately stacked against disadvantaged minorities (mandatory minimums, discrimination etc) and I don't think that it's as dismissable an issue as saying "stop doing crimes and suddenly the injustice will cease to exist". Though Bill's ideal is noble and commendable, it does tend to excuse the reality of the second class citizenship that many blacks and minorities are assigned.
That said, the main point that I take from Bill that I wholeheartedly agree with is that the cycle of victimization has to stop. At some point, in order to move forward, you have to stop making excuses for yourself, work with what you have, and use that standing to fight toward greater equality and a potentially brighter future. Pointing fingers, however great the injustice, rarely leads to success , and while black and minority communities may have a greater number of legitimate fingers to point, the fact is that merely alluding to one's status as a victim is not a road to progress. However many sympathizers you might attain through enlightenment of your plight, people are naturally inclined to be self-interested and ethno-centric, so simple appeal to the majority is not likely to be as productive as a pro-active self determination. The civil rights movement is evidence of this..black leaders and protesters didn't wait for white America to sympathize equality into legislation, they took action. They didn't fret for their lack of status, resources, or numbers, they made due with what they had and commandeered their movement toward their own goals.
It's wrong to assume that there aren't plenty within the black community who aren't doing the right thing, raising responsible children and providing positive role models for disadvantaged youth. But I think that it's quite obvious that black leadership has been falling down on the job for the greater part of 3 decades, and that it is the moral obligation of those in a position of privelege and visibility to help raise awareness and encourage responsibility in the community, instead of pointing fingers and pandering to the white political majority in hope of change. Cosby is doing the right thing in terms of holding people accountable and perpetuating a more pro-active method of thinking, I just fear that his preachy approach will alienate many in the community who would be more likely to label him an Uncle Tom than take the message to heart and look at themselves. Sometimes "tough love" is needed though, and it's hard to second guess his methodology considering it hasn't been really been tried in earnest before. If anything, I hope, as with all alternative viewpoints, it will spark people into discussion and into considering the subject beyond the scope of their traditional views. While it may not necessarily yield the result Cosby desires, his discourse has already elevated the visibility of the state of the black community and the conflicts therein. The new viewpoint alone is an attack at the stagnation of peoples conceptions of the plight of minorities in America, which I view as a positive thing.
That said, the main point that I take from Bill that I wholeheartedly agree with is that the cycle of victimization has to stop. At some point, in order to move forward, you have to stop making excuses for yourself, work with what you have, and use that standing to fight toward greater equality and a potentially brighter future. Pointing fingers, however great the injustice, rarely leads to success , and while black and minority communities may have a greater number of legitimate fingers to point, the fact is that merely alluding to one's status as a victim is not a road to progress. However many sympathizers you might attain through enlightenment of your plight, people are naturally inclined to be self-interested and ethno-centric, so simple appeal to the majority is not likely to be as productive as a pro-active self determination. The civil rights movement is evidence of this..black leaders and protesters didn't wait for white America to sympathize equality into legislation, they took action. They didn't fret for their lack of status, resources, or numbers, they made due with what they had and commandeered their movement toward their own goals.
It's wrong to assume that there aren't plenty within the black community who aren't doing the right thing, raising responsible children and providing positive role models for disadvantaged youth. But I think that it's quite obvious that black leadership has been falling down on the job for the greater part of 3 decades, and that it is the moral obligation of those in a position of privelege and visibility to help raise awareness and encourage responsibility in the community, instead of pointing fingers and pandering to the white political majority in hope of change. Cosby is doing the right thing in terms of holding people accountable and perpetuating a more pro-active method of thinking, I just fear that his preachy approach will alienate many in the community who would be more likely to label him an Uncle Tom than take the message to heart and look at themselves. Sometimes "tough love" is needed though, and it's hard to second guess his methodology considering it hasn't been really been tried in earnest before. If anything, I hope, as with all alternative viewpoints, it will spark people into discussion and into considering the subject beyond the scope of their traditional views. While it may not necessarily yield the result Cosby desires, his discourse has already elevated the visibility of the state of the black community and the conflicts therein. The new viewpoint alone is an attack at the stagnation of peoples conceptions of the plight of minorities in America, which I view as a positive thing.
hooded pitohui
Member
this oughta put kids back on the right track.
The focus of many of Bill's speeches has been this.
Regardless of whether some part of the problem lies outside our community a LARGE part of the problem lies within and rather than continue to complain that the gov't should be helping us more, we need to be actively doing more within our communities to at least attempt to resolve some of the issues.
The example I gave about the comment Bill made about parents crying when their children are carted off to jail as young adults... he says I am talking about these people who cry when their son is standing there in an orange suit. Where were you when he was 2? Where were you when he was 12? Where were you when he was 18 and how come you didn't know that he had a pistol? And where is the father? . .
Karasu's response is well some kids are too much to handle. WTF? At 12? at 6? at 8? Many of the problem/repeat offenders show signs of being in trouble when they are young and still impressionable by their parents.
And even if they ARE too much to handle (I've still never figured out exactly what that statement means at the younger ages), does this mean the parent just says well fuck it I can't deal with em I'll just ignore them. Does the parent just give up? No, at this point you hopefully start looking to your local community, your local church, etc for options on how to handle your child with assistance. But most of the time that doesn't happen. It's simply oh he's a handful I can't control him... <ignore mode on>
I love the fact that Cosby is pissing folks off.
PROVE HIM F'N WRONG THEN.... cause that's what he wants.
Regardless of whether some part of the problem lies outside our community a LARGE part of the problem lies within and rather than continue to complain that the gov't should be helping us more, we need to be actively doing more within our communities to at least attempt to resolve some of the issues.
The example I gave about the comment Bill made about parents crying when their children are carted off to jail as young adults... he says I am talking about these people who cry when their son is standing there in an orange suit. Where were you when he was 2? Where were you when he was 12? Where were you when he was 18 and how come you didn't know that he had a pistol? And where is the father? . .
Karasu's response is well some kids are too much to handle. WTF? At 12? at 6? at 8? Many of the problem/repeat offenders show signs of being in trouble when they are young and still impressionable by their parents.
And even if they ARE too much to handle (I've still never figured out exactly what that statement means at the younger ages), does this mean the parent just says well fuck it I can't deal with em I'll just ignore them. Does the parent just give up? No, at this point you hopefully start looking to your local community, your local church, etc for options on how to handle your child with assistance. But most of the time that doesn't happen. It's simply oh he's a handful I can't control him... <ignore mode on>
I love the fact that Cosby is pissing folks off.
PROVE HIM F'N WRONG THEN.... cause that's what he wants.
Sirpopopop
Member
gblues said:
Hmm... I don't think the founder of BET is necessarily looked at as "selling out to the white man". I don't think Cosby is looked at as a sellout. Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson - I don't know, you would have to ask someone like Darien about that (thanks for assuming that I'm African American. Though... in other countries I've been called black, because to them, that's what I am) But, figures like Clarence Thomas are looked at as sellouts and rightfully so.
Also, you should read over the first part of my post again:
Now, how you got me saying that the problems with the African American community do not have anything at all to do with the culture, I don't know.
Lara said:
Simple answer - you can't. That's the main reason you usually won't see any black leader talking this way on national television. Anyone who understands media knows that it'll just get chopped up into soundbites, twisted by the Limbaugh faction, and the actual message won't get heard by much of anyone. This thread is testament to that. And the truth is, the only thing that keeps Cosby from being portrayed as some evil race-baiter, instead of as the "rare, good kind of black man" by the right wingers, is the fact that he doesn't talk about how racism affects anything. And the only thing keeping his talks in the national spotlight at all is the "fatherly comedian goes batshit insane" angle.
Personally, I see him as essentially the same as the rest of the black leadership. He's say what needs to be said, but he'll never get around to doing what needs to be done. Yes, I know that he has made contributions, and taken some black kids under his wing. So haver many other people. We need more than that. For example, I'd like to see him championing the Boston style of law enforcement, where police and church leaders work together to identify problem kids and steer them back on the right track. I'd love to see him working to improve schools, rather then giving scholarships to black kids. Don't just tell people what music to listen to, tell them what music they *should* be listening to - and help to distribute it. In other words, be a leader, rather than just a speaker.
Unresponsive Bee Victim
Member
Cosby is dead on and he's doing a noble thing by trying to express it to the nation and the black men with the power is a great place to go. The only thing is that they have to acknowledge his message and also Mr.Cosby has to express his views in many different places to get it across to different members of the black community, even some white folks might try to help.
Ninja Scooter
Member
what would his son's murder have to do with any of this? Wasn't his son killed by some russian mobster who tried to carjack him or something? I fail to see the connection.
evil solrac v3.0
Member
COSBY/POWELL FOR A BETTER AMERICA!!!!!
Ned Flanders said:
You're full of shit. The law applies the same to everyone, unless I missed the statute that says Black people shall be locked away longer than white people for the same crime. I realize it does sound dismissive, but the truth is that if people stop committing crimes, *shock* they don't go to jail!
You break the law, you go to jail. This isn't a hard concept to comprehend. You say that "the system" puts minorities in a position of *having* to break the law, while I say those who break the law do so by choice, and thus have the choice to not break the law also.
Nathan
Kabuki Waq
Member
Its not just black kids anymore who are fucked up. It the whole Superficial MTV generation these days. Almost every popular Musician these days raps about either chicks, smoking up, and how much blng they have. All these kids care about is image these days. Boys smoking up at 11, banging chicks at 12 getting cell phones beepers brand name clothing emulating pop culture icons. Sure we all did that when we were kids. But we had fucking ninja turtles and sesame street. They have 50 cent and britney spears.
This generation of Parents dont seem to care anymoe what kids are watching or listening to. I mean really should 12 yr old girls be listening to the last christina Aguilera album?
fuck .
This generation of Parents dont seem to care anymoe what kids are watching or listening to. I mean really should 12 yr old girls be listening to the last christina Aguilera album?
fuck .
McLesterolBeast said:
Huh what did I screw your girl last night, what's with the personal attacks against me. If you have a problem with what I said then explain why I am wrong rather than calling me a retard. If being a retard means I expect black people to conduct themselves in a civilzed manner and not commit crimes and then turn around and bitch that they are getting more time because they are black, the I guess I'll be that.
Mumbles said:
This is the part that really irks me about people "praising" Bill. His insights are not new. Where was the praise when black people like Chris Rock or Nas, for example, made similar arguments long ago? You won't find it because:
They didn't choose to using something like a NAACP event to make their point.
What is being said is not that shocking to begin with. Anyone with eyes and a functional brain can see that there are problems within the black community that center around personal responsibilty.
The approach that they took couldn't be easily twisted into an argument for someone looking to support their case for black inferioty.
And lastly, they weren't a Bill Cosby type of figure--the last person you would think would take a confrontational stance at the most awkard oppurtunities.
I have no problem with what he's saying, but the execution leaves much to be desired. I don't think being "shocking" is going lead to better results. He's getting more people talking, but talk is cheap.
ge-man said:
Who said his approach was more constructive? Did he? Did his mom? Did the people he works with?
No this is simply the path he's chosen to deliver his message.
The attention he's getting is vexing? Try reading more than one newspaper. He's getting people talking and writing articles FOR and AGAINST what he's saying.
That's a good thing.
Soft-shoeing doesn't always work. Sometimes you have to slap people in the face to get the moving. We've had soft shoe talk about changing things in black communities... now it's time for more hard talk about it.
IF the message keeps getting repeated by different folks in different ways, at different times perhaps EVENTUALLY things will change.
Sirpopopop
Member
Ripclawe said:
Fair enough. I'll just refer to a safe choice like Nas or Run DMC.
ge-man said:
Well, I agree with you, But I really don't. On one hand, I don't give a fuck about what Limbaugh or Coulter have to say about black people in the US. They're the type that would beat and rape their own mothers on tv for a dollar or two, so I don't see them changing their stance anyway. They can whine about how black leaders don't talk about "gangta rap", but bpeople were confronting that issue head on a decade ago. You know, back when Tupac and Biggie got shot, when the republicans were swearing to eliminate the Department of Education, when there were congressional hearings on the subject, and when O'Reilly was introducing "hard-hitting" stories about thong panties on Inside Edition.
And frankly, lack of personal responsibility or education isn't unique to black people - it's a part of US culture in general. The white guys pointing fingers at black people for not taking education seriously are the same ones who whine about how Kerry insults them by speaking with "nuance", instead of the lectures for retarded children that Bush gives.
But it does irritate me that people are only listening to what Cosby is saying because he's Cosby. Look, if something good comes out of his talk, then I'll pat him on the back. Besides, the man went to the same college that I did, so I'm inclined to like him
. But call me a cynic, but I don't think anything will come out of what he's saying. Yeah, he's got black folk talking about whether he's right or wrong. But so what? We've been doing that for decades. The problem is, we aren't doing shit. At the moment, Cosby has the spotlight as a black leader, even if he's not being covered for teh best of reasons. He's in a position where, if he were to put his talk into real action, he just might change things. But I haven't seen that from him. *that's* my criticism of him - the "fatherly comedian goes batshit insane" comment was a swipe at the media, not at Cosby. He has to work with what he has, after all, and the national media would never cover a more subtle approach from him.Ned Flanders
Banned
gblues said:
Of course the fucking law applies to everyone dipstick, but that doesn't mean equality of justice. Just because there isn't a law saying black people should be locked away longer than whites doesn't mean that they aren't subject to greater conviction rates and sentences for equivalent crimes. The justice system favors the priveleged (I fucking DARE you to try and argue this one), and blacks and minorities typically constitute the majority of the underpriveleged. The fact is that people of all races and creeds commit crimes everyday, but as a black man in America you're more likely to be convicted and harshly sentenced than any of your peers.
So "you break the law, you go to jail" actually doesn't always play out as it should. You can't make excuses for people committing crimes, but you can't simply dismiss the slanted playing field within the justice system either. Crime doesn't always boil down to malicious intent..its just not that cut and dried of an issue.
Christ and Mary on a bikeMumbles said:
*deep breath*
Look.
Take a look at some of the linked articles in this very thread. Or, if that's not enough, do a quick search under "Cosby" in the OT forum. You'll find numerous examples of where the Cos has PUT HIS TALK INTO ACTION.
Where the Cos has USED HIS OWN MONEY TO FACILITATE THE VERY CHANGE WE'RE DISCUSSING.
Where the Cos has PUT UP INSTEAD OF SHUTTING UP.
I mean, it's not like numerous examples haven't already been provided! I don't want to believe that you're wilfully ignoring all the evidence to the contrary, so I'll assume you have an eye condition that forces your vision to slide over any and all links that support the Cos.
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