Could Bruce Lee be competitive in today's MMA?

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Shinta said:
But are you saying that thousands of video game nerds would school Kareem in 30 seconds?
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Thousands? Not likely. A few who are legitimately good at basketball, enough to compete in the NBA today, yeah. They would do very well playing against him. Video gaming is a popular hobby so are martial arts. There's a lot of crossover between the two.


As far as learning a bunch of technique, even Bruce was quoted on how important it is to practice the same thing over and over. If four or five things work 99 percent of the time then practicing those four things is better than trying to learn a thousand techniques.
 
Jado said:
Forget LeBell. You still haven't provided any evidence for your ridiculous claims other than alluding to vague hearsay about how awesome a friend of a friend said he was that one time a random stranger stepped up to him.

"Bruce Lee the Legend" is basically a fabrication and exaggeration of a shady time when people could make grander-than-life claims and there would be no way to find out the truth. He's a modern tall tale. I have no doubt in my mind that if he were alive today, he would be quickly exposed as average. At best an ordinary "good fighter" with some talent and admirable qualities, but nothing that would cause legions of blind fans across decades to worship him like he's an indestructible force unmatched by any person past, present or future.

I have no doubt in my mind that if he were alive today, he would be quickly exposed as average.
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Martial Artists and Champions don't exaggerate the skills of "ordinary" or "just ok" fighters.
They certainly don't take lessons from them either.

I'm not saying the man is invincible, but like some scientists/philosophers/traditional artists/musicians, Bruce was ahead of his time when it came to Martial Arts training. And to think he would not move forward or evolve in his training when his whole philosophy was about not being stuck to one style just makes me laugh when you want to call someone who changed the face or martial arts as a fraud or con man.
 
Disparate knowledge of grappling leads -- demonstrably -- to more one-sided outcomes than any other disparity in fighting ability. Grappling can also be trained in live 100% power sparring scenarios safely and repeatedly, unlike striking, so development is consistent and linear with time spent. So yes, some random video game nerd with cardio and strength development of a typical varsity high school kid and a few years of BJJ would take out Bruce Lee without much effort, and the bigger the size difference the less effort it would take. Things have changed in the last 40 years.

I know this because there is no secret aura power that would let a dude who has little to no modern grappling experience, who weighs 120-140 lbs and can squat 95 pounds, biceps curl a lot, and run a 7.5 minute mile, to have any plausible way to win against a competent grappler on the mats. It would be an immediate takedown with no defense straight into a choke, armbar, or strikes from the mount. This is not speculation, or anecdotal. It has been proven countless thousands of times in gyms all around the world and during the birth of MMA competition before everyone adapted by learning grappling to even the playing field.
 
EviLore said:
Disparate knowledge of grappling leads -- demonstrably -- to more one-sided outcomes than any other disparity in fighting ability. Grappling can also be trained in live 100% power sparring scenarios safely and repeatedly, unlike striking, so development is consistent and linear with time spent. So yes, some random video game nerd with cardio and strength development of a typical varsity high school kid and a few years of BJJ would take out Bruce Lee without much effort, and the bigger the size difference the less effort it would take. Things have changed in the last 40 years.

I know this because there is no secret aura power that would let a dude who has little to no modern grappling experience, who weighs 120-140 lbs and can squat 95 pounds, biceps curl a lot, and run a 7.5 minute mile, to have any plausible way to win against a competent grappler on the mats. It would be an immediate takedown with no defense straight into a choke, armbar, or strikes from the mount. This is not speculation, or anecdotal. It has been proven countless thousands of times in gyms all around the world and during the birth of MMA competition before everyone adapted by learning grappling to even the playing field.
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I don't disagree with most of that. But I don't know why Bruce Lee has to suddenly fight people outside his weight class, or we have to assume he would learn absolutely nothing in 40 years.

The argument for the predictable learning of grappling is more in his favor than against, since he would almost surely be able to learn it then if everyone learns it predictably well for the most part.

If you want to put Bruce Lee in a time capsule and say that he never saw Brazilian Jiu Jitsu at all, then throw him in the ring with people that significantly outweigh him, then he would probably have a learning curve like everyone else. But if we say that he learned along with everyone else, he would probably be significantly ahead in lots of other areas that take a lot longer to master. And that's actually where the sport seems to be going in the future.
 
Sheroking said:
False? By all means, educate us.

Bruce Lee invented a martial art style that's still part of some MMA fighters' background. He taught people martial arts who now train MMA fighters. He WAS ungodly fast, ungodly fit and his entire teaching principle was around what's functional. "Absorb was useful, discard what's useless". I'm not saying what he was could have stepped into the ring, I'm saying he would learn.

Some of UFC's biggest and most successful fighters of all time were bouncers, bodyguards and football players with little to no MMA training before their mid-20's. I don't think the bar is as high as some MMA fans want people to think it is.

It's speculation. I don't think it's empty or baseless.
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A lot of those guys were high school wrestlers or trained kickboxing or bjj while they were bouncers or body guards. Its not like they did a year of training and then ran through MMA.
 
Shinta said:
That's basically the whole point. Watch Joe Rogan talk about the spin-side kick. No one uses it because no one in MMA has even mastered it, but it doesn't mean it's not a viable technique in the hands of a master. The same goes for a whole lot in martial arts. These are things that wouldn't work for a lot of people ... but in the hands of Bruce Lee?
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Maybe nobody uses it in MMA because it's a risky technique with a big ass wind up. I said that I think there are useful skills and practices in the martial world outside of the MMA sphere. I did NOT say that Bruce Lee knowing any or all of them would make him competitive in MMA (the point of this topic), nor did I say Bruce Lee was a particular master of them.

The craziest thing about all of this is, you're arguing a couple techniques outside of the MMA sphere would give Bruce Lee some crazy advantage, but when I look at him and his training list, pretty much looks like he took bits and pieces from here and there, the same thing you accuse MMA of being bad or mediocre for. You've totally bought into his legend. What techniques/strategies could Bruce Lee successfully execute in MMA that say, an Anderson Silva couldn't?

Shinta said:
The argument for the predictable learning of grappling is more in his favor than against, since he would almost surely be able to learn it then if everyone learns it predictably well for the most part..
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Not everyone learns groundwork predictably well. That's nonsense.
 
Shinta said:
Yeah, video game nerds are going to beat Bruce Lee in a fight. I'm the ignorant one though.

How many of the guys in the gym that you worked with trained in Wing Chun with Yip Man? Trained with all the top martial artists of their day nonstop as their career; achieving international recognition because of it? The whole world was wrong about him for decades, but you got it right. Does that sound very plausible?
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I'm not sure if you are trolling or you actually believe what you write.
 
spin-side kicks... master...

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i knew Andre Winner was a mystical Sifu.

iuTxa9IiAvjOI.gif


damn, Ben "Bad News" Lagman too. this is some grandmaster shit.
 
It's cool that there are people doing those in MMA (don't watch). I see them in sanda and kyokushinkai fairly often but I figured that it was kinda risky because of all the counter opportunities. Can you shoot double legs on someone with a turned back under the MMA ruleset?
 
Its MMA so probably. You gotta remember that UFC is still pretty new, at this stage its the equivalent of 1920s boxing. And we all know how those guys fought...
aIYnSpU.jpg
 
Shinta said:
I don't disagree with most of that. But I don't know why Bruce Lee has to suddenly fight people outside his weight class, or we have to assume he would learn absolutely nothing in 40 years.

The argument for the predictable learning of grappling is more in his favor than against, since he would almost surely be able to learn it then if everyone learns it predictably well for the most part.

If you want to put Bruce Lee in a time capsule and say that he never saw Brazilian Jiu Jitsu at all, then throw him in the ring with people that significantly outweigh him, then he would probably have a learning curve like everyone else. But if we say that he learned along with everyone else, he would probably be significantly ahead in lots of other areas that take a lot longer to master. And that's actually where the sport seems to be going in the future.
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And if you got into a time machine and popped out when I was three years old with Roger Gracie and Buakaw, a treadmill, a power rack, and a lifetime supply of whey protein in tow, WHO KNOWS WHAT WOULD HAPPEN!

There are facts, like what techniques Bruce Lee knew, the fitness levels he reached, and that he didn't participate in any real competitions (only one substantiated private match against another martial artist, with a heavily disputed outcome and a refusal on his part to rematch in a public venue), all of which means that Bruce Lee transported through time and space would be unconscious in 30 seconds against BJJ+Judo black belt John Carmack.

Then there is masturbatory fantasy about how badass he was because of the movies he starred in and the people he trained under. Movies are movies, and I've learned from numerous MMA, Muay Thai, and BJJ champions, which doesn't mean shit about how talented I am at anything.

There is no compelling evidence pointing toward Bruce Lee being god's gift to martial arts talent. Go look to people who killed a bunch of opponents in duels or wars for the real badasses of history if you really want to go down that road. Miyamoto Musashi walked around Japan and challenged the strongest guys in the country and defeated/killed all of them one by one in duels. If you're going to jerk off to someone's legend, that's a way better option.
 
Esch said:
It's cool that there are people doing those in MMA (don't watch). I see them in sanda and kyokushinkai fairly often but I figured that it was kinda risky because of all the counter opportunities.
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since you seem like a nice guy here's that one actually finishes the fight:

iIRYJWIedIdv4.gif


Yip Dude is the guy's name. hardest technique in the world. known only by Joe Rogan and his disciples.
 
No Siver gifs of the spinning back kick? MMA GAF slipping?

A lot of traditional martial arts techniques aren't used because they're either illegal (eye pokes, eye scratches, groin attacks) or because they're risky (spinning kick techniques are telegraphed pretty plainly when not executed quickly and accurately). Hell, even a fairly basic technique like the front snap kick was very rare to see in MMA because it leaves you vulnerable to takedown and can break your foot if the kick lands wrong. Then Silva lands it, Machida lands a jumping switch kick version of it, and suddenly fighters are more willing to risk using it. Before their success, most opted with the front push kick.

The reason you see a lot of fighters resorting to the same techniques over and over isn't because they've practiced the bare minimum. It's because it's a sport and they're trying to win. It's the same reason NBA players are trying to do 360 tomahawk dunks all the time. You go with the techniques that have the highest percentage of success with the least risk to yourself.
 
Shinta said:
But if we say that he learned along with everyone else, he would probably be significantly ahead in lots of other areas that take a lot longer to master. And that's actually where the sport seems to be going in the future.
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Wrestling, judo and other grappling martial arts have existed long before mma. Gene Lebell and others before him proved they were legitimate fighting techniques to be reckoned with in the early days of no holds barred fighting.

I imagine if Bruce Lee is really this legit martial artist savant he would have shown us those skills before, maybe he did study them but died before he could use them in his own way we will never know.

But grappling is not like some modern day thing, its been around for centuries.
 
I think he would have a lot to learn, but I also think he would surprise people. His focus and tenacity were well known, and of course he is known for his speed. And haven't a lot of people who trained with him said he had remarkable body strength for someone of his size? I know Evilore posted some stats but who knows if those were his limits or just another day in the gym.

I couldn't say anything to if he would win, but... yeah, I think he would surprise people, his opponent included.
 
Lambda Piscium said:
since you seem like a nice guy here's that one actually finishes the fight:
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Nice, right to the liver. You seem like a ...nice guy too?

Jest Chillin said:
A lot of traditional martial arts techniques aren't used because they're either illegal (eye pokes, eye scratches, groin attacks) or because they're risky (spinning kick techniques are telegraphed pretty plainly when not executed quickly and accurately). Hell, even a fairly basic technique like the front snap kick was very rare to see in MMA because it leaves you vulnerable to takedown and can break your foot if the kick lands wrong. Then Silva lands it, Machida lands a jumping switch kick version of it, and suddenly fighters are more willing to risk using it. Before their success, most opted with the front push kick.
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That and some people don't see a lot of these as 'traditional martial art techniques' or equate things from forms/single movement practice as perfect analogues to how they look like in application. I have a friend who does long fist who flipped out and sent me the Cung Le ko Franklin gif because it was a textbook application from that. Fighting looks like fighting.
 
Bruce Lee would make Mickey Mouse look like Cu Chulainn. I bet he would cut a father time promo like no other though.

"Time to be water folks"
 
Esch said:
That and some people don't see a lot of these as 'traditional martial art techniques' or equate things from forms/single movement practice as perfect analogues to how they look like in application. I have a friend who does long fist who flipped out and sent me the Cung Le ko Franklin gif because it was a textbook application from that. Fighting looks like fighting.
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This is true. Funny enough I'm reminded of one of Bruce's quotes. "There is only one type of body. 2 arms, 2 legs, etc that make up the human body. Therefore, there can only be one style of fighting."

When he said it, he was talking about how styles don't matter but it sort of highlights the fact that humans are all built similarly and thus the mechanics and form of what are effective strikes are inevitably going to be the same or incredibly similar. Cung Le, Lyoto Machida, and Overeem can all throw roundhouse kicks to the head. They all look pretty similar despite the fact they've all trained in different styles.
 
EviLore said:
And if you got into a time machine and popped out when I was three years old with Roger Gracie and Buakaw, a treadmill, a power rack, and a lifetime supply of whey protein in tow, WHO KNOWS WHAT WOULD HAPPEN
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All I said was that he should fight people in his own weight class if you wanted it to be fair. And that he would probably train a bit with modern techniques before the fight. That happens with every single MMA fighter today, so I don't know why it's not fair or you're acting like it's super exaggerated. They know who they will fight months in advance, watch and study all their fights and have several trainers for months before.

As I said, that's just basic fairness in a thread about him being competitive in modern day MMA, since it's what every single MMA fighter does today.

I even said if you want to use special time capsule rules and prevent all of that, then sure, he would have a learning curve.

I'm not masturbating by thinking that he's a very skilled martial artist. I didn't want to make this personally offensive, but it comes off as a whole lot more masturbatory to elevate the kind of training you do to the degree that you have. I doubt even most pro MMA fighters in his weight class would claim that they would take him out in 30 seconds, let alone non-professionals. Even Royce Gracie in UFC1 didn't end fights in 30 seconds. It's been a while since I saw those, but I remember some of his fights were actually close to an hour long before they shortened the time allowed on the ground.
 
EviLore said:
There is no compelling evidence pointing toward Bruce Lee being god's gift to martial arts talent. Go look to people who killed a bunch of opponents in duels or wars for the real badasses of history if you really want to go down that road. Miyamoto Musashi walked around Japan and challenged the strongest guys in the country and defeated/killed all of them one by one in duels. If you're going to jerk off to someone's legend, that's a way better option.
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Or stan Gordon Liu instead, because he was in better movies.
 
polyh3dron said:
I give the edge to the one with more experience.

1000 fights > 400 fights
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What about against a Navy SEAL, though? Those guys can take dozens of bullets each and keep going, as long as they yell "FUCK!" every time they get shot, as per Lone Survivor, Based on a True Story. No amount of fights can overcome that.
 
Never realized evilore did mma. What's his record?

Would evilore beat bruce lee in an mma match day 0? Prolly, since bruce didn't do mma or even knows what mma is. If bruce was allowed training? I doubt it, but I don't know how good evilore is so I couldn't say.
 
In MMA he would have a very good chance against anyone dumb enough to stand and trade with him. His power was off the charts for a lightweight. That being said he wouldn't stand a chance against a well rounded modern day fighter like Benson, Jose, or Edgar.

In K1 however, I think he would be a perennial contender. This is of course assuming we're talking about Bruce at his training peak and not Hollywood Bruce.
 
Bruce Lee was obsessed with studying martial arts. It's pretty obvious that he would had kept up with modern developments brought by the whole mma movement.
 
EviLore said:
What about against a Navy SEAL, though? Those guys can take dozens of bullets each and keep going, as long as they yell "FUCK!" every time they get shot, as per Lone Survivor, Based on a True Story. No amount of fights can overcome that.
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Vladimir Putin has the nuclear codes though, and he's no slouch in the combat sambo to boot.

Putin beats Navy SEAL via Nuclear Strike before SEAL can get authentication codes.
 
His fanaticism regarding his training is what would separate him from the rest. His own notes in the Tao of JKD have grappling techniques so he wasn't ignorant of them, perhaps not highly trained.

Some quotes from: http://www.bruceleedivinewind.com/feats.html

Jesse Glover - "When he could do push ups on his thumbs and push ups with 250lbs on his back, he moved on to other exercises".

Joe Lewis - "Bruce was incredibly strong for his size. He could take a 75lb barbell and from a standing position with the barbell held flush against his chest, he could slowly stick his arms out, lock them and hold the barbell there for 20 seconds, that's pretty damn tough for a guy who at the time only weighed 138lbs. I know 200lb weight lifters who can't do that."

Danny Inosanto - "Bruce had tremendous strength in holding a weight out horizontally in a standing position. I know because I've seen it. He'd take a 125lb barbell and hold it straight out".

Jesse Glover - "Bruce would take hold of a 70lb dumbbell with one arm and raise it to a lateral position, level to his shoulder and then he'd hold the contraction for a few seconds. Nobody else I knew could even get it up there, let it alone hold it up there".

Wally Jay - "I last saw Bruce after he moved from Culver City to Bel Air. He had a big heavy bag hanging out on his patio. It weighed 300lbs. I could hardly move it at all. Bruce said to me "Hey, Wally, watch this" and he jumped back and kicked it and this monster of a heavy bag went up to the ceiling, Thump!!! And came back down. I still can't believe the power that guy had".

Jesse Glover - "The power that Lee was capable of instantly generating was absolutely frightening to his fellow martial artists, especially his sparring partners, and his speed was equally intimidating. We timed him with an electric timer once, and Bruce's quickest movements were around five hundredths of a second, his slowest were around eight hundredths. This was punching from a relaxed position with his hands down at his sides from a distance between 18-24 inches. Not only was he amazingly quick, but he could read you too. He could pick up on small subtle things that you were getting ready to do and then he'd just shut you down".

Jesse Glover - "Bruce was gravitating more and more toward weight training as he would use the weighted wall pulleys and do series upon series with them. He'd also grab one of the old rusty barbells that littered the floor at the YMCA and would roll it up and down his forearms, which is no small feat when you consider that the barbell weighed 70lbs".

Herb Jackson - "He never trained in a gym, he thought he could concentrate better at home, so he worked out on his patio. He had a small weight set, something like a standard 100lb cast-iron set. In addition, he had a 310lb Olympic barbell set, a bench press and some dumbbells, both solid and adjustable".

Bolo Yeung - "Bruce had devised a particularly difficult exercise that he called "The Flag". While lying on a bench, he would grasp the uprights attached to the bench with both hands and raise himself off the bench, supported only by his shoulders. Then with his knees locked straight and his lower back raised off the bench, he'd perform leg raises. He was able to keep himself perfectly horizontal in midair. He was incredible, in 100 years there will never be another like him".

Karreem Abdul Jabbar - "I used to run with him up and down Roscamore Road in Bel Air when we trained together during the summer of 1970. It was a very hilly terrain, which Bruce loved, and we'd do that at the beginning of each of our workouts".

Mito Uhera - "He'd ride a stationary bike for 45 minutes straight (10 Miles) until the sweat would form in pools on the floor beneath him."

Herb Jackson - "Bruce would wear a Weider Waist Shaper (a type of sauna belt) when riding his stationary bike. It was all black and made out of neoprene. He'd put it on before getting on the stationary bike. Then he'd turn the resistance up on it. He'd pedal the hell out of the bike. Sweat would pour out of him. He'd ride that bike for a series of 10 minute sessions. He felt that the sauna belt focused the heat onto his stomach and helped keep the fat off. Now maybe it worked and maybe it didn't, but you'd be hard pressed to find any fat anywhere on his body".

Danny Inosanto - "Bruce would be constantly reading through the muscle magazines and looking for new products that would help make him leaner. If he found such an item, he'd read all about it, order it, and then try it out to see if the claims made for it were true or not. If he found that it wasn't all it was cracked up to be, he'd discard it and try something else. He was forever experimenting".

Ted Wong - "Bruce would do a lot of different types of sit ups and bench presses. He was also using a technique like the Weider Heavy/Light Principle, working up to 160lbs in the bench press for three sets of 10 on his heavy days and then repping out for 20-30 reps with 100lbs on his light days. Bruce experimented successfully with partial reps, movements performed in only the strongest motion. He liked the fact that they were very explosive, sometimes he would do the bench press, using just the last 3 inches of the range of motion. It was the same range in which he would do some of his isometric exercises".

James Coburn - "Bruce and I were training out on my patio one day, we were using this giant bag for side kicks, I guess it weighed about 150lbs. Bruce looked at it and just went Bang, it shot up out into the lawn about 15ft in the air, it then busted in the middle. It was filled with little bits and pieces of rag, we were picking up bits of rag for months"
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So that's a no on an actual competition record?

I feel like that's kind of a big deal here when determining someones skill in a fight. Cuts through the hypotheticals.
 
He did say "BE LIKE THE WATER", so of course his form and style would always evolve and change to always have an competitive edge. Be water my friend :D

Don't get set into one form, adapt it and build your own, and let it grow, be like water. Empty your mind, be formless, shapeless — like water. Now you put water in a cup, it becomes the cup; You put water into a bottle it becomes the bottle; You put it in a teapot it becomes the teapot. Now water can flow or it can crash. Be water, my friend.
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