Support NeoGAF

[ManaByte]

Unfortunately it sometimes happens that foreigners may not be as up to speed with another county’s news, I’m about as pro vaccination as it comes. Do you have a link to CDC’s endemic statement?

CDC Says COVID Hospitalizations, Deaths To Drop Over Next 4 Weeks

The CDC expects to see COVID deaths and hospitalizations to decrease over the coming weeks as new coronavirus cases are declining.

www.ibtimes.com

Former FDA Chief Says Pandemic Could Subside by Thanksgiving—If Delta Is the Last Major Variant

That’s a big “if.”

observer.com

 

[prinz_valium]

At the rate numbers are falling in the US, it'll be endemic in a month. With vaccines + the dumbass anti-vaxxers getting COVID, the thing is running out of people to infect.

Even the CDC is saying this.

This thing will never run out of people to infect, just like the common cold or flu.
Covid is not an infection that can be eradicated unless something major changes.

 

[ManaByte]

This thing will never run out of people to infect, just like the common cold or flu.
Covid is not an infection that can be eradicated unless something major changes.

That's a nice post-apocalyptic fantasy you're living in. I had to break it to your dreams of living in a Walking Dead future, but the reason why the CDC says cases and deaths are going to be falling over the next month is because the virus is running out of people to infect and the country is getting closer and closer to herd immunity through a combination of people being vaccinated and idiots getting infected due to not being vaccinated.

 

[QSD]

Ok everyone time to put aside some popcorn for the following feature presentation... Steve Kirsch (supreme anti-vax activist, e.g. 'vaccines cause babies' brains to explode' ) will 'interview' Yuri Deigin (strident vax advocate , and 'bit of a dick'). I can't see this going well at all, but it has the potential to be very entertaining.

 

[ManaByte]

Ok everyone time to put aside some popcorn for the following feature presentation... Steve Kirsch (supreme anti-vax activist, e.g. 'vaccines cause babies' brains to explode' ) will 'interview' Yuri Deigin (strident vax advocate , and 'bit of a dick'). I can't see this going well at all, but it has the potential to be very entertaining.

I'd rather browse Resetera.

 

[cheststrongwell]

Ok everyone time to put aside some popcorn for the following feature presentation... Steve Kirsch (supreme anti-vax activist, e.g. 'vaccines cause babies' brains to explode' ) will 'interview' Yuri Deigin (strident vax advocate , and 'bit of a dick'). I can't see this going well at all, but it has the potential to be very entertaining.

It's almost impossible to win a debate with one conspiracy nut. Can't imagine having to debate a group of them. Could be entertaining though.

 

[QSD]

I'd rather browse Resetera.

well the level of disaster tourism is about equal so I understand

It's almost impossible to win a debate with one conspiracy nut. Can't imagine having to debate a group of them. Could be entertaining though.

It's just him and Deigin AFAIK. Deigin didn't mince words about Bret Weinstein so I'm pretty sure he will be neither polite nor cordial.

 

[poppabk]

well the level of disaster tourism is about equal so I understand


It's just him and Deigin AFAIK. Deigin didn't mince words about Bret Weinstein so I'm pretty sure he will be neither polite nor cordial.

It'll just be a Gish Gallop and an angry shutdown. Both sides will claim victory.

 

[Malakhov]

Why are people so giddy about this concept?

I dont understand this either, way too much people excited and in favor of more lockdowns for my taste

 

[Cyberpunkd]

Vaccines won’t save us , how can you curb COVID , if vaccines are basically worthless after 6 months .. you need 90 % but everytime it lowers to less , because of variants , vaccines that aren’t as effective, there are new lock downs coming , this little guy will teach us that we will need to start thinking about changing our life’s .. maybe for the better .

In time new vaccines should be developed that are better and better and the deficiency drop-off is smaller. Plus herd immunity will develop. Worst case scenario: treat it like a worse flu and take a shot each year.

 

[Loki]

Why has this CDC graph not been updated since Oct 2nd? COVID-19 Associated Hospitalizations by Age

 

[MisterFalcon]

I dont understand this either, way too much people excited and in favor of more lockdowns for my taste

From what I see there are two fringes in favour of lockdown. On one side the people who genuinely admire China and their lockdown and on the other side the anti-vaxx crowd who would prefer everyone to suffer equally under a lockdown then they be made to bear any burden of the effects of their decisions.

 

[Belgorim]

From what I see there are two fringes in favour of lockdown. On one side the people who genuinely admire China and their lockdown and on the other side the anti-vaxx crowd who would prefer everyone to suffer equally under a lockdown then they be made to bear any burden of the effects of their decisions.

You forgot the ones that want a lockdown out of spite because other people are not doing as they are told well enough.

These are pribably seldom the ones heavily affected by lockdowns (with regards to work/kids).

 

[Guileless]

Some lockdown enthusiasts are obviously afraid of being alive and are exploring new ways to loathe their own humanity.

 

[MisterFalcon]

Yeah, there are some idiots going 'just everybody stay home for 4 weeks like I've been doing forever, how is this so hard ? #capitalismruinseverything #covideasyfix'

 

[Malakhov]

From what I see there are two fringes in favour of lockdown. On one side the people who genuinely admire China and their lockdown and on the other side the anti-vaxx crowd who would prefer everyone to suffer equally under a lockdown then they be made to bear any burden of the effects of their decisions.

Some lockdown enthusiasts are obviously afraid of being alive and are exploring new ways to loathe their own humanity.

More like what guileless said. Paranoids and these

 

[T8SC]

We're going around in circles.

 

[Chaplain]

edited

 

[DaleinCalgary]

That's a nice post-apocalyptic fantasy you're living in. I had to break it to your dreams of living in a Walking Dead future, but the reason why the CDC says cases and deaths are going to be falling over the next month is because the virus is running out of people to infect and the country is getting closer and closer to herd immunity through a combination of people being vaccinated and idiots getting infected due to not being vaccinated.

I disagree, you can catch covid multiple times. And it comes and goes through waves as how many times have we seen things improve just to get worse 3 months later when restrictions are gradually lifted.

We need everyone vaccinated and those that dont will just not be able to do things the vaccinated can do.

 

[ManaByte]

We need everyone vaccinated and those that dont will just not be able to do things the vaccinated can do.

Maybe we can just put them in camps? Would that be acceptable to you?

 

[DaleinCalgary]

Maybe we can just put them in camps? Would that be acceptable to you?

A bit of hyperbole there???

There is a very easy, free and safe way to get around it. Where I live the city is currently is at 89.7% vaccinated over 12 years old. I don't give a crap about the nut jobs that get info from Facebook on the vaccine.

 

[QSD]

A bit of hyperbole there???

There is a very easy, free and safe way to get around it. Where I live the city is currently is at 89.7% vaccinated over 12 years old. I don't give a crap about the nut jobs that get info from Facebook on the vaccine.

Huh, if you don't give a crap about those 'nut jobs' (who are in fact your fellow citizens), then why would you mind if they get put in camps?

 

[DaleinCalgary]

Huh, if you don't give a crap about those 'nut jobs' (who are in fact your fellow citizens), then why would you mind if they get put in camps?

I never said put people in camps

 

[Kraz]

Read somewhere that getting the flu shot increases resistance to Covid?

Can the Flu Vaccine Also Help With COVID-19?

Bonus features on a DVD or Blu-ray disc (remember those?) are nice, but we don’t expect them from vaccines. As the novel coronavirus hurtled through communities in 2020 and no specific vaccine was on the immediate horizon, scientists began to wonder if a different jab, already approved and...

www.mcgill.ca

The reprogramming itself is epigenetic in nature. Our genes make proteins, but they are not always making proteins. Like bakers, they have schedules and they respond to dips and hikes in demand. This regulation is under the control of epigenetic factors: marks that land on top of genes to silence them and large molecules that can relax or scrunch up the DNA molecule to make it more or less accessible. Scientists are only now beginning to understand how epigenetic reprogramming by infectious agents can train our innate immunity to better protect us from unrelated contagions. Some live attenuated vaccines, like those against smallpox, measles, yellow fever and polio (the oral live version but not the inactivated vaccine), have been shown to trigger this trained immunity, and future research should reveal which other vaccines may have provided us with this bonus feature all along.

We still do not know for sure if the flu vaccine really does offer some protection against COVID-19 and its complications. It may be that the benefit is real though marginal or it may just be an illusion created by the imperfect studies done to investigate this effect. Regardless, the flu vaccine has real benefits. It protects against influenza, a disease which some predict will be severe this coming winter season due to our dwindling immunity from not encountering the virus much last year. And the flu shot helps reduce hospitalizations due to influenza. Given the number of times our healthcare system, made up of bone-tired people, has groaned and buckled under the stress of the pandemic, every little bit of prevention helps.


Take-home message:
-The claim that getting the flu shot puts you at risk for COVID-19 is not true and was based on a paper published before the pandemic that made a mistake when calculating the risk of a coronavirus infection in people who had been immunized against the flu
-There is contradictory evidence on whether or not the flu vaccine offers a small protection against COVID-19, as this effect may simply be due to the people seeking out the flu shot being more health conscious, better off financially, and more willing to adopt public health measures during the pandemic
-Some infections and vaccines seem to be able to improve our defences against other infections by training a part of our immune system we used to think was incapable of this kind of training.

 

[Rentahamster]

Rewatching old movies, and this sounds familiar.

 

[ManaByte]

I never said put people in camps

 

[BadBurger]

Let's not be silly - no one is being placed into camps over vaccines. Suggesting such is hysteria and muddies a pretty simple problem with emotion and unwarranted fears.

Either get vaccinated, or face the repercussions of mandates. It's just a virus, they're just vaccines, if a person can't grasp such a simple concept then they shouldn't be allowed to place others at risk in public or especially in the workplace. That's my feelings on all of that anyways.

 

[RouteBypass]

Is this thread 6 months old where everyone still thinks vaccines prevent infection and transmission?

 

[Rentahamster]

Is this thread 6 months old where everyone still thinks vaccines prevent infection and transmission?

We think what the data shows - that vaccines prevent many but not all instances of infection/transmission, and prevent the vast majority of hospitalizations and deaths.

Not taking a vaccine is a risky proposition to not only yourself, but also to the people who are in contact with you.

 

[RouteBypass]

We think what the data shows - that vaccines prevent many but not all instances of infection/transmission, and prevent the vast majority of hospitalizations and deaths.

Not taking a vaccine is a risky proposition to not only yourself, but also to the people who are in contact with you.

This study wasn't referenced by the NY Times so it's probably a non-starter but there doesn't appear to be any meaningful correlation between increased vaccine rates and lowered COVID cases. Which by your own definition would mean the risk one takes by not being vaccinated is a risk taken only to themselves.

Also the study actually goes on to suggest behavioral shifts in the vaccinated (No masking, less distancing, less hand washing, less personal concern, etc) may actually be driving case numbers and therefore higher potential for hospitalizations and deaths despite vaccination rates.

This was pretty obvious from a cursory glance of the data out of the top vaccinated countries but it's nice to see it compiled in one place.

 

[Star-Lord]

So cases are on the rise again in the UK, though actual numbers seem to vary by which news outlet you refer to. The most common figure is 40,000 over the last few days, and the highest is 49,000. This is bad either way. The Health Secretary had stated there will not be another lockdown over Christmas, but urges everyone to wear face masks, wash hands, and stay socially distant. This is what happened last time before we went into lockdown.

 

[Cyberpunkd]

So cases are on the rise again in the UK, though actual numbers seem to vary by which news outlet you refer to. The most common figure is 40,000 over the last few days, and the highest is 49,000. This is bad either way. The Health Secretary had stated there will not be another lockdown over Christmas, but urges everyone to wear face masks, wash hands, and stay socially distant. This is what happened last time before we went into lockdown.

How are your hospital and ICU beds holding? This data: https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/healthcare shows you have approx. 900 people in ICU with the peak being 4000 in January 2021. You went from 125 in May till 900 now, so not a huge increase for 6 months.

 

[Star-Lord]

How are your hospital and ICU beds holding? This data: https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/healthcare shows you have approx. 900 people in ICU with the peak being 4000 in January 2021. You went from 125 in May till 900 now, so not a huge increase for 6 months.

The actual number of ICU cases isn’t that high admittedly, but MPs are concerned that number will increase over the winter months. In general, though, the NHS is falling apart. There’s a hospital waiting list of 5.7 million, and that too is only going to grow over time. Rishi Sunak has hinted at providing a boost of £6B to help, but the money is useless if they either don’t have the staff or the cases of COVID continues to climb.

 

[funkygunther]

The actual number of ICU cases isn’t that high admittedly, but MPs are concerned that number will increase over the winter months.

if only they were in a position to do something about it...

NHS is always falling apart but for Covid there's nothing we can do but wait and see, no point trying to second guess the government but if we come out in spring with this rate of hospitalisations and deaths and just the usual guidance then the pandemic's over

 

[FireFly]

This study wasn't referenced by the NY Times so it's probably a non-starter but there doesn't appear to be any meaningful correlation between increased vaccine rates and lowered COVID cases. Which by your own definition would mean the risk one takes by not being vaccinated is a risk taken only to themselves.

Also the study actually goes on to suggest behavioral shifts in the vaccinated (No masking, less distancing, less hand washing, less personal concern, etc) may actually be driving case numbers and therefore higher potential for hospitalizations and deaths despite vaccination rates.

This was pretty obvious from a cursory glance of the data out of the top vaccinated countries but it's nice to see it compiled in one place.

The study doesn't attempt to control for differences between countries. Obviously there are a lot of factors influencing spread beside vaccination, and there is a threshold effect where an intervention that lowers the reproductive number, R, from 1 to 0.99 will lead to virus elimination, where as an intervention that lowers R from 5 to 1.01, will still lead to the virus exploding out of control.

We can see this in Europe, where cases have been falling in France and Spain, but rising rapidly in the UK, despite broadly similar vaccination levels. The relevant point is that without vaccination, France and Spain would not have been in a position to begin to open up, without seeing a huge rise in cases. Any intervention that lowers R either buys you more personal freedom (because you need less restrictive controls to bring R below 1), or reduces the number of people that have to be naturally infected to reach the herd immunity level, if you are allowing the virus to spread. So in the UK it might seem like the vaccines are doing nothing, because the government has ended all attempts to keep R below 1. However, in reality they could mean that we need only a few million more people to get infected to see cases start to fall, rather than the majority of the population.

 

[Cyberpunkd]

Maybe we can just put them in camps? Would that be acceptable to you?

No, but we can make them stay home if they are not vaccinated. Again - going to restaurant, cinema, events is not a right. So you can either wait at home till this passes over or stop being a 'just asking questions and educating myself' social media tool and get a jab like hundreds of millions of other people.

 

[DaleinCalgary]

We think what the data shows - that vaccines prevent many but not all instances of infection/transmission, and prevent the vast majority of hospitalizations and deaths.

Not taking a vaccine is a risky proposition to not only yourself, but also to the people who are in contact with you.

it really is this simple.

85% of our hospitalizations are 15% of the population that is unvaccinated.

 

[Clear]

Every time I see this thread title I cannot help but feel that "Masks Of Fauci" sounds exactly like that of 70's Dr Who serial.

Its just perfect.

 

[Physiognomonics]

Doctors (treating thousands of COVID patients) and scientists (including vaccine designer) about COVID.

 

[poppabk]

This study wasn't referenced by the NY Times so it's probably a non-starter but there doesn't appear to be any meaningful correlation between increased vaccine rates and lowered COVID cases. Which by your own definition would mean the risk one takes by not being vaccinated is a risk taken only to themselves.

Also the study actually goes on to suggest behavioral shifts in the vaccinated (No masking, less distancing, less hand washing, less personal concern, etc) may actually be driving case numbers and therefore higher potential for hospitalizations and deaths despite vaccination rates.

This was pretty obvious from a cursory glance of the data out of the top vaccinated countries but it's nice to see it compiled in one place.

So your solution is increased restrictions, more masking, more lockdowns, less personal freedom rather than increasing vaccination rates?
I would rather have an open vaccinated society, than a restricted low vaccination society.

 

[p_xavier]

What is this nonsense. Countries have trouble getting doses and they're vaccinating zoo animals?

The Toronto Zoo is planning to vaccinate its animals against COVID-19

The Toronto Zoo is planning to vaccinate at least 140 of its animals against COVID-19 soon.

toronto.ctvnews.ca

 

[PrimetimeKnight]

That's a nice post-apocalyptic fantasy you're living in. I had to break it to your dreams of living in a Walking Dead future, but the reason why the CDC says cases and deaths are going to be falling over the next month is because the virus is running out of people to infect and the country is getting closer and closer to herd immunity through a combination of people being vaccinated and idiots getting infected due to not being vaccinated.

I wish I had your optimism but after seeing how things have been since the beginning I really have my doubts. Just when it feels like we were overcoming it, surprise! here's a variant that evades vaccines more, is more dangerous, and is easier to transmit. What's to say this won't continue to happen? I can't even count what "wave" we are on now since that's all this pandemic has been is just ups and downs of cases and hospitalizations. Complete eradication is a pipe dream at this point, need to drop the pandemic farce at this point and just call it what it really is, endemic.

 

[funkygunther]

What is this nonsense. Countries have trouble getting doses and they're vaccinating zoo animals?

The Toronto Zoo is planning to vaccinate its animals against COVID-19

The Toronto Zoo is planning to vaccinate at least 140 of its animals against COVID-19 soon.

toronto.ctvnews.ca

not human vaccines

 

[RouteBypass]

So your solution is increased restrictions, more masking, more lockdowns, less personal freedom rather than increasing vaccination rates?
I would rather have an open vaccinated society, than a restricted low vaccination society.

I didn't claim to have an answer to the pandemic nor did I suggest more restrictions was the answer, just that the evidence that vaccines prevent infection/transmission enough to justify stripping the rights of the unvaccinated was wrong.

'The Pandemic of the Unvaccinated' is a myth and it's really the only tool left to justify vaccinating young children with what remains as the last vaccine out of four which is still approved for use, and not because it's magically better or different but because it simply has a lower dosage.

The rush by what, in the best case scenario, is a bunch of irrationally frightened adults to have children vaccinated against a disease that poses an infinitesimally small risk to further protect themselves is a huge mistake. And in the worst case, you have a bunch of preening pyschopaths willing to (literally) sacrifice their first born to prove to everyone on Twitter what good upstanding citizens they are.

 

[Cyberpunkd]

'The Pandemic of the Unvaccinated' is a myth

Sounds legit:

In Rome hospital, unvaccinated patients fill coronavirus beds - France 24

In Rome hospital, unvaccinated patients fill coronavirus beds

www.france24.com

4 in 5 COVID-19 patients in ICU are not vaccinated | RIVM

4 in 5 COVID-19 patients in intensive care are not vaccinated against the coronavirus SARS-CoV-2. The chance that a fully vaccinated person will end up in ICU due to COVID-19 is 33 times lower than for a non-vaccinated person.

www.rivm.nl

Unvaccinated 60 times more likely to end up in ICU with COVID-19, Ontario data shows | Globalnews.ca

Three charts released by the Ontario COVID-19 Science Advisory Table demonstrate the vast difference between vaccinated and unvaccinated people when it comes to COVID-19 risks.

globalnews.ca

 

[RouteBypass]

Like I said, the risk of not getting vaccinated is one you take for yourself.

 

[poppabk]

I didn't claim to have an answer to the pandemic nor did I suggest more restrictions was the answer, just that the evidence that vaccines prevent infection/transmission enough to justify stripping the rights of the unvaccinated was wrong.

'The Pandemic of the Unvaccinated' is a myth and it's really the only tool left to justify vaccinating young children with what remains as the last vaccine out of four which is still approved for use, and not because it's magically better or different but because it simply has a lower dosage.

The rush by what, in the best case scenario, is a bunch of irrationally frightened adults to have children vaccinated against a disease that poses an infinitesimally small risk to further protect themselves is a huge mistake. And in the worst case, you have a bunch of preening pyschopaths willing to (literally) sacrifice their first born to prove to everyone on Twitter what good upstanding citizens they are.

"...suggest behavioral shifts in the vaccinated (No masking, less distancing, less hand washing, less personal concern, etc) may actually be driving case numbers..."
You literally quoted that increased freedom among the vaccinated may be the cause.
So higher vaccination rate = increased freedom, lower vaccination rate = less freedom. Same number of cases plus less hospitalization and death for option 1.
So I would pick option 1, but if you prefer extra restrictions then that is your perogative.

 

[RouteBypass]

"...suggest behavioral shifts in the vaccinated (No masking, less distancing, less hand washing, less personal concern, etc) may actually be driving case numbers..."
You literally quoted that increased freedom among the vaccinated may be the cause.
So higher vaccination rate = increased freedom, lower vaccination rate = less freedom. Same number of cases plus less hospitalization and death for option 1.
So I would pick option 1, but if you prefer extra restrictions then that is your perogative.

I wasn't trying to suggest policy, just posting what the study indicated as a potential factor in fueling the continued spread in the context of vaxed vs unvaxed.

I wasn't about to start brainstorming ways to solve a global pandemic either, I see no real point, but if you're that curious, people should probably just get on with their lives. If you're old or fat or both, maybe get the vaccine. At some point personal freedoms need to be respected and personal risk needs to be assessed on an individual basis. Mask, distance if you feel it will keep you safe, but nothing seems to have really worked outside of natural immunity and protecting the vulnerable.

But this seems to largely be what's occurring, just alongside of retarded, backwards authoritarian measures targeted at a subset of people.

 

[Nobody_Important]

Like I said, the risk of not getting vaccinated is one you take for yourself.

You: That's a myth lol


Cyberpunkd : Actually it's not. *shows proof*


You: Like I said...*changes subject*



Compelling stuff...

 

[RouteBypass]

I never suggested unvaccinated people were not falling ill. I suggested they're not spreading at higher rates than the vaccinated. I don't know how to be any clearer on that.