Support NeoGAF

[Osahi]

Again, the level of violence from the left in the US is amazingly low, like, historically so.
There isn't a single successful political movement in history who managed to achieve anything without any property damage happening along the way.
Demanding zero violence is demanding no direct action, which is why the right wing is demanding it, and if it won't be Antifa they will find someone else to vilify.

That is not to say that you need to support or engage in damaging properties, but if you generally agree with the causes that the left promote, the least you can do is not help propagate this right wing media caricature of the left which is designed to de-legitimize it and make people forget that one side has actual Nazis.

Adopting this bullshit narrative will not make Antifa change their way and it won't make Fox News stop declaring anything Democrats proposing as OMG COMMUNISM, and you think people who buy that "Antifa are the real fascists" bullshit are one "I condemn all violence from all sides" post on facebook from stop swallowing those stupid scare tactics?
The only purpose it has is to make you feel better about how you are "fair to both sides".

I'm sorry, but I don't agree. I think you can turn the argument around. By using violence (how little there might be from a historical standpoint) you de-legitimize yourself in my opinion and you risk to give credence to the caricature. You undo the work others have peacefully achieved.

Offcourse Fox won't stop attacking democratic proposals. But it will be a lot easier fighting their bullshit propaganda and hypocricy if we didn't offer them the violence they can abuse to strengthen their narrative. And no, you won't convince the hardcore right gobbling up Fox News, but the antifa violence and how right-wing media can abuse it, can alienate moderate people from your cause. Maybe we would still be talking about actual Nazi's if people weren't so stupid to throw piss at the police.

I can stand behind violence if democratic means are depleted or unreachable, but seriously, we are not in that situation by a long shot. I don't think the historic comparisons hold up too. Can you really compare antifa to the Indian independence struggle for instance?

And 20 pages into this topic, I still haven't seen any convincing argument for how smashing in windows will actually damage this administration or hurt the alt-right movement in any way. Again, if you are not fighting in a context of a massivly oppressive political system, if you are not attacked yourself when you protest, violence will get you nowhere, but a setback.

If you need violence to convince people of your political ideas, you are out of arguments and you invalidate your own cause imo. If you want to fight Nazi's and uphold democracy, you shouldn't use their scare tactics.

 

[King Tubby]

You're wrong. The US government has already labelled (certain) Antifa actions as domestic terrorist violence. This is more specific than being a "terrorist organization" but it's as close as it gets short of that. There is nothing vague or pedantic about describing terrorism as the threat of extrajudicial violence to further political and social aims.

The FBI also targeted the Civil Rights Movement, anti-Vietnam war protesters, feminists, and other groups during the 1960's. Again, it's not far from the rhetoric that would classify people like MLK and Gandhi as terrorists.

 

[dlauv]

So the system is fucked... what's your solution

Currently fucked doesn't mean unsalvageable. I would hope people who wished to make a change in the system would resign themselves to law, but I guess that's symptomatic of the education system which, by and large, doesn't really reinforce how important law is until you're old enough to get screwed by it.

I wish tackling legislation weren't as arduous as it is, but there are plenty of resources available, including legal counsel, to construct a case for the removal of a statue and/or the laws protecting it. I certainly sympathize with those who have to work very hard to make end's meet and don't have the time for that kind of shit -- those who would rather take a hands-on approach. I just don't trust it.

The same planet where such a possibility exists again.

Wasn't even a 100 hundred ago when this happened.

Oh, now I understand what you meant. I doubt our constitution would allow something like that. Trump isn't even bold enough to say he likes Nazis outright, and his support is on lifeline. He won with 1 million less votes than Romney lost with. While bigotry will never leave, these days are the death throes of white insecurity in an increasingly diverse America, imo.

 

[PabloBolivar]

As I said, I think it's fair to say that the level of violence is not justified given the issues that they're fighting for.
But look at it this way, I don't know where you are politically, but think of your unicorn policy, be it universal healthcare or privatization of social security, if you thought a couple of broken Bank of America windows could achieve that, wouldn't you support that?
I would.

Now if your argument is that this is counter-productive and not help the causes that they're fighting for, well, that's a practical argument, and one that should be made in way more relaxed tones and without comparing them to Nazis or ISIS.

I guess my philosophy on political movements is "the word is mightier than the sword".
I hate to see violence at any level in response to speech. Meeting violence with more violence? well that's another story.

 

[Chichikov]

You're wrong. The US government has already labelled (certain) Antifa actions as domestic terrorist violence. This is more specific than being a "terrorist organization" but it's as close as it gets short of that. There is nothing vague or pedantic about describing terrorism as the threat of extrajudicial violence to further political and social aims.

There is no legal designation for domestic terrorism in the US outside what's in the Patriot Act, and luckily, no one have applied those tools to Antifa so far.
Now yeah, some people in law enforcement think that what Antifa do qualify as terrorism, but there were also people in law enforcement that thought that suffragists and civil rights leaders were terrorists. I mean sheeeeeit, the head of the FBI called MLK an enemy of the state and a terrorist. By your definition MLK is a terrorist.
Do you believe that?

I guess my philosophy on political movements is "the word is mightier than the sword".
I hate to see violence at any level in response to speech. Meeting violence with more violence? well that's another story.

That's mostly what Antifa do though.
Let's not pretend that there is this big organized effort to run around the country randomly beating up right wing people and break starbucks.

 

[BBboy20]

Oh, now I understand what you meant. I doubt our constitution would allow something like that. Trump isn't even bold enough to say he likes Nazis outright, and his support is on lifeline. He won with 1 million less votes than Romney lost with. These days are the death throes of white insecurity, and I hope, by and large, many of us liberals (and centrists, and republicans too) look at these events that have past as a warning against inaction come voting season.

...the fact that you didn't get it the first time indicates you don't really understand how apocalyptic the situation is right now. And you are not factoring the "taking us all down with them" possibility the fascists in power possess currently. We are on our own here despite whatever allies we have left within the system that have successfully blocked whatever 45 can muster. This country still gives absolute power to the singular leader and those within our government that enables that power. Stop looking at this clusterfuck as something that will "correct" itself because that is not how the winds of change work.

 

[dlauv]

...the fact that you didn't get it the first time indicates you don't really understand how apocalyptic the situation is right now. And you are not factoring the "taking us all down with them" possibility the fascists in power possess currently. We are on our own here despite whatever allies we have left within the system that have successfully blocked whatever 45 can muster. This country still gives absolute power to the singular leader and those within our government that enables that power. Stop looking at this clusterfuck as something that will "correct" itself because that is not how the winds of change work.

The first time, I thought you were saying something completely different.

I don't think that things will correct themselves on their own. I think there should be more effort in condensing and delivering information into concise, digestible media that will help people accomplish their goals within the system that is established. Opposed to encouraging beating up a few rabid white people, that is. We have a lot of problems that won't be surmounted by seek & destroy physicality, which includes white supremacists in power who don't show their colors. But maybe that's thinking too far ahead to be practical?

The other problem is that there is so much intersectionality that it's difficult finding a leading approach that will agree with everyone.

Like I said, I sympathize with people who aren't sitting around nor "writing their congressman," but I certainly wouldn't put my trust into and subscribe to their actions holistically. Too many autonomous moving parts and indeterminable ideologies beyond "anti-fascism." One guy with a Picard avatar around here explained a few times how fucky it can be in Europe with Antifa. If the left is represented by Antifa, it's a solution begging for a problem, as cathartic as their actions may be. Also, if things really come to a head, I don't trust that Antifa will be as resolute against governmental or state opposition as they are against fat or scrawny MAGA stragglers at a statue protest.

 

[theignoramus]

I hope Antifa continues doing what they do. Down in Charlotteseville,I heard they kept a whole church full of activists and clergy men from being attacked by Nazis, so I don't give two shits if they don't conform to your ideal standard of resistance. More importantly, they don't either.

 

[theignoramus]

So, alienate large groups of people. That'll help the cause.

"Good riddance" to them, they're not wanted. They can stay over there if Nazis being pummelled gives them second thoughts about a larger movement for equality and justice.

 

[Spoiled Milk]

There is no legal designation for domestic terrorism in the US outside what's in the Patriot Act, and luckily, no one have applied those tools to Antifa so far.

The current lettering of the law:

the term “domestic terrorism” means activities that--

 involve acts dangerous to human life that are a violation of the criminal laws of the United States or of any State;

 appear to be intended--

 to intimidate or coerce a civilian population;

 to influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion;  or

 to affect the conduct of a government by mass destruction, assassination, or kidnapping;  and

 occur primarily within the territorial jurisdiction of the United States.

.

 

[whitehawk]

https://twitter.com/adamjohnsonNYC/status/903492168324530176

what is this supposed to prove?

It just strengthens Trevor's point if anything.

 

[Dude Abides]

Antifa was out there making sure Nazis didn't beat people upon Charlotte and telling them to their faces they weren't wanted while Trevor Noah tut tuts at them from his comfy TV studio. Eat a dick Trevor Noah.

This "Antifa just strengthens the right" nonsense is bullshit worthless centrists tell themselves to assuage their insecurity that Antifa is actually fighting Nazis while centrists are doing jack and shit. Notice how they never click their tongues at the Tim McVeighs and Dylan Roofs and Based Stickman and claim that their right wing violence (and lol at reaching back to the Vietnam era and completely ignoring that the vast majority of recent political violence has come from the right) hurts the right.

 

[Oblivion]

Did a quick google search and almost all the sites that are reporting on this segment are right-wing sites and they're lavishing praise on Noah.

Just to give you an idea of how this is being perceived.

 

[MikeyB]

Did a quick google search and almost all the sites that are reporting on this segment are right-wing sites and they're lavishing praise on Noah.

Just to give you an idea of how this is being perceived.

I don't see that as surprising. He criticized the left and american political discourse threw rationality out the window some time ago. Neither side can take criticism and both sides take any argument that could criticize the other side as a point for them, regardless of the argument's content.

Just look at the reaction here. Most posts don't tackle his arguments - they just say "I am disappointed" or "this guys sucks anyway".

Best of luck turning that discourse around. Looks like a time for tyrants to me.

 

[tbm24]

Did a quick google search and almost all the sites that are reporting on this segment are right-wing sites and they're lavishing praise on Noah.

Just to give you an idea of how this is being perceived.

It's being perceived exactly how he said it would be, by the same media groups he was making fun of to begin with.

 

[ElFly]

the argument that Fox News will use it to discredit is stupid

Fox News will use whatever to discredit who they want, making up stuff if they need to

there's no reason to modify your behavior because "oh no, what will Fox News say"

 

[gutter_trash]

and don't forget the Spanish Revolution and the lead of to the bloody Spanish Civil War.

on the Repubican side, you had Anarchists, Libertarians and Communists in-fighting because they couldn't agree on the better ideology. USSR backed Communists undermined the Republican cause and back stabbed the Anarchist and Libertarian factions.

the Nationalists (Fascists) ended up by winning though the division of the Repulbicans.

now what does this have to do with the present? Message, that's what. Message.

ANTIFA continues with loosey goosey non-focused message where any faction can jump in with different aims. Just like the Spanish Revolution where the Communists ended up back stabbing the Anarchists resulting in a Fascist victory.

The Communists and the Anarchists engaged in range of terror and chaos to the point the local populations gave into supporting the Nationalist side to end the chaos which ended in a Fasicst Dictatorship.

 

[Nipo]

It's being perceived exactly how he said it would be, by the same media groups he was making fun of to begin with.

It doesn't matter how smart and witty your commentary is if it is successfully used to advocate a negative viewpoint. If Swift's essay lead to people actually eating babies than writing it was a mistake.

 

[ZealousD]

Did a quick google search and almost all the sites that are reporting on this segment are right-wing sites and they're lavishing praise on Noah.

Just to give you an idea of how this is being perceived.

This is completely irrelevant to the substance of the argument.

 

[kiunchbb]

"Good riddance" to them, they're not wanted. They can stay over there if Nazis being pummelled gives them second thoughts about a larger movement for equality and justice.

You are out of your mind if you think breaking windows in a Starbucks will stop Nazi.

I wonder how many of those antifa are actually registered to vote.

 

[uncelestial]

You're wrong. The US government has already labelled (certain) Antifa actions as domestic terrorist violence. This is more specific than being a "terrorist organization" but it's as close as it gets short of that. There is nothing vague or pedantic about describing terrorism as the threat of extrajudicial violence to further political and social aims.

Whoopdee fucking do. It's the Trump administration. If you're looking to them for moral guidance on how to be part of the resistance you are already fucking up.

 

[Nipo]

Whoopdee fucking do. It's the Trump administration. If you're looking to them for moral guidance on how to be part of the resistance you are already fucking up.

Which is why it is super important to remember who will be making the decision on what speech is banned when people are calling for the nazi marches to be made illegal.

 

[uncelestial]

This is completely irrelevant to the substance of the argument.

No, it's pretty fucking relevant.

 

[gutter_trash]

ANTIFA is like they say in French "du n'importe quoi"

The Montreal chapter of ANTIFA complained about Justin Trudeau using Ukraine's motto on social media on Ukranian Indepence Day.

ANTIFA (who are Russia stooges as well), called the Canadian Goverment "Colaborators of the Ukranian Fascists"

like seriously man, as a Montrealer. How am I supposed to take this group seriously?

 

[Morrigan Stark]

A good sign that you're fucking up is when Tomi Lahren agrees with you.

Tomi Lahren is pro-choice.

ANTIFA is like they say in French "du n'importe quoi"

The Montreal chapter of ANTIFA complained about Justin Trudeau using Ukraine's motto on social media on Ukranian Indepence Day.

ANTIFA (who are Russia stooges as well), called the Canadian Goverment "Colaborators of the Ukranian Fascists"

like seriously man, as a Montrealer. How am I supposed to take this group seriously?

Yeah. Antifas in Montreal are a joke and a fucking disgrace.

That shouldn't mean all antifas everywhere are like that, but we can't handwave them either and pretend the Quebec antifas aren't garbage.

 

[Wrestlemania]

ANTIFA (who are Russia stooges as well), called the Canadian Goverment "Colaborators of the Ukranian Fascists"

Got any links to stories about this? Googling "montreal ukraine antifa" isn't coming up with anything.

 

[Kyzer]

The FBI also targeted the Civil Rights Movement, anti-Vietnam war protesters, feminists, and other groups during the 1960's. Again, it's not far from the rhetoric that would classify people like MLK and Gandhi as terrorists.

They also used to pay people to go into protests and start violence to discredit their cause

Whoopdee fucking do. It's the Trump administration. If you're looking to them for moral guidance on how to be part of the resistance you are already fucking up.

To be fair its the same organization that says right wing extremist groups are the largest threat to national security and much more dangerous then foreign terror organizations

 

[uncelestial]

Tomi Lahren is pro-choice.

I know, I don't care, and it really doesn't change what I said.

 

[gutter_trash]

Tomi Lahren is pro-choice.


Yeah. Antifas in Montreal are a joke and a fucking disgrace.

That shouldn't mean all antifas everywhere are like that, but we can't handwave them either and pretend the Quebec antifas aren't garbage.

they drink the Putin Kool-Aid, the anti-EU Kool-Aid, the anti-NATO Kool-Aid and the Brexit Kool-Aid

when Horseshoe Theory rings true. It does in this case on the points above

 

[Wrestlemania]

they drink the Putin Kool-Aid, the anti-EU Kool-Aid, the anti-NATO Kool-Aid and the Brexit Kool-Aid

when Horseshoe Theory rings true. It does in this case on the points above

Oh, so you're just lumping any anti-capitalist groups together under the banner of antifa? Gotcha.

 

[Mammoth Jones]

Antifa was out there making sure Nazis didn't beat people upon Charlotte and telling them to their faces they weren't wanted while Trevor Noah tut tuts at them from his comfy TV studio. Eat a dick Trevor Noah.

This "Antifa just strengthens the right" nonsense is bullshit worthless centrists tell themselves to assuage their insecurity that Antifa is actually fighting Nazis while centrists are doing jack and shit. Notice how they never click their tongues at the Tim McVeighs and Dylan Roofs and Based Stickman and claim that their right wing violence (and lol at reaching back to the Vietnam era and completely ignoring that the vast majority of recent political violence has come from the right) hurts the right.

This is the god damed truth.

 

[gutter_trash]

Got any links to stories about this? Googling "montreal ukraine antifa" isn't coming up with anything.

their facebook page

https://www.facebook.com/AAFMTL/

scroll down to the Canadian Coat of Arms.

Oh, so you're just lumping any anti-capitalist groups together under the banner of antifa? Gotcha.

patience is a virtu; look at their Facebook page above

 

[Morrigan Stark]

I know, I don't care, and it really doesn't change what I said.

Uh, okay...

Oh, so you're just lumping any anti-capitalist groups together under the banner of antifa? Gotcha.

...How did you get that from his post? He's talking specifically about Montreal antifas. Pay attention to the conversation will you?

 

[gutter_trash]

Uh, okay...


...How did you get that from his post? He's talking specifically about Montreal antifas. Pay attention to the conversation will you?

something that people do not know is that Putin is not only an Alt-Right darling but also a Far-Left darling for anyone who are anti-globalist and anti-EU.

the fact is the money and funding has funneled through many anti-establishment groups and parties regardless if they are Far-Right or Far-Left. Just as long as they are anti-EU, they get Putin's attention.

the Kool-Aid has crossed the Antlantic Ocean into North America and ANTIFA is clearly anti-EU with Pro-Putin slant

 

[What did he mean by this?]

I always wondered how a non-American got Jon Stewart's job

 

[sphagnum]

I always wondered how a non-American got Jon Stewart's job

Jon and the crew simply liked him the best.

 

[Wrestlemania]

Uh, okay...


...How did you get that from his post? He's talking specifically about Montreal antifas. Pay attention to the conversation will you?

The Montreal antifa are pro-Brexit?

 

[gutter_trash]

The Montreal antifa are pro-Brexit?

they are everything anti-globalist

 

[aeolist]

trevor noah: hitting people is bad

also trevor noah:

 

[radios shipping overview]

Okay, but this part is really important:

 

[Pop-O-Matic]

Jon and the crew simply liked him the best.

I thought it had more to do with the half-dozen or so people they asked before him all turning the job down.

 

[User Name Here]

"Vegan Isis" is right up there with "Vanilla Isis" when it comes to funny terms.

 

[Pachinko]

I mean on one hand ...He's not wrong - the ignorant and stupid masses that enjoy Fox news will indeed look at every 1-5 second clip of "antifa" violence as proof that they are nothing but a violent group that stands for chaos and disruption and the dreaded evil "socialism".

But ... on the other hand , neo-nazi's shouldn't exist and they need to be shown in the most absolute fashion possible that they aren't wanted. As well, when the label anti-fa applies to basically anyone that isn't a nazi that also means that very very few people out there actually want to turn to violence. Marching in incredibly large numbers seems to be enough to get the chicken shit racism brigade to crawl into the cracks and hide which is where they belong.

There's this strange disconnect with how the media portrays anything these days , if you're against something that is unequivocally wrong and bad , arguably even evil ? then you have to walk around like Ghandi not even passing gas in the general direction of your opponents. Yet, on some level, if you happen to be one of the awful people on the wrong side of history , you get something of a free pass. People expect you to be the most awful shit imaginable so when the media covers the latest horrible stuff you do , well - it reads off the ticker tape like the stock market. No one really notices.

So , failing anything else, Trevors rant is merely stating what most of us already know and it doesn't really help or benefit anyone. A fart in the wind. Is this a reason to jump down his throat ? I don't really think so , if anything - reacting super poorly to his rant just feeds into it. At the end of the day none of these people have any real impact (tv personalities). If they did , John Oliver could be thanked for helping keep trump out of office with the dozens of hash tags but here we are , September of 2017 , almost a year since the most depressing election in the history of the US and well, Americans are stuck with the shittiest president in history.

I'd go so far as to say that the only reason this rant has gotten any notice is because people look at and have looked at the daily show as confirmation bias. They want to hear the host say things they agree with. Just the same as idiots that watch Fox news , rural republicans that want to be reassured of their horrible view of the world and the people around them.

I suppose what I'M trying to say is that no one ideologically to the left of a neo-nazi is going to win over anyone on their side. Violence is typically a poor answer to a problem as well BUT ... these are bad enough people that it's not worth even feigning interest in keeping up a healthy image in the eyes of the right. So keep punching nazi's until they go away and then get back to shouting instead. Ideally Rupert Murdoch dies and his heir is secretly a socialist that just takes fox news off the air so the ignorant aspects of society are forced to educate themselves and get into what the modern world really is and then most problems will start to fix themselves. Until then ? I don't know.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

trevor noah: hitting people is bad

also trevor noah:

He tweeted a joke in bad taste 6 years ago.

Is this supposed to prove something?

 

[aeolist]

He tweeted a joke in bad taste 6 years ago.

Is this supposed to prove something?

he's an idiot, a bad comedian, and an unprincipled hack who's just reading the script for money.

nobody should be listening to him, most of all the left. his criticisms have no weight whatsoever and only serve to pander to the right.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

he's an idiot, a bad comedian, and an unprincipled hack who's just reading the script for money.

nobody should be listening to him, most of all the left. his criticisms have no weight whatsoever and only serve to pander to the right.

Wow. I've seen just about every Daily Show episode since he's been on board and I can't agree with this at all. Do you even watch the show?

 

[Kinyou]

he's an idiot, a bad comedian, and an unprincipled hack who's just reading the script for money.

nobody should be listening to him, most of all the left. his criticisms have no weight whatsoever and only serve to pander to the right.

What? How has for example his heartfelt criticism of police violence pandered to the right?

You don't have to throw out the baby with the bathwater because you didn't like something he said.

 

[LionPride]

he's an idiot, a bad comedian, and an unprincipled hack who's just reading the script for money.

nobody should be listening to him, most of all the left. his criticisms have no weight whatsoever and only serve to pander to the right.

How sway

 

[Jobbs]

he's an idiot, a bad comedian, and an unprincipled hack who's just reading the script for money.

nobody should be listening to him, most of all the left. his criticisms have no weight whatsoever and only serve to pander to the right.

I've watched the show and seen him speak at length during interviews on other shows and this just doesn't describe him.

It wouldn't be Neogaf if a bunch of people weren't responding to something no one said and doling out opinions on things they don't know anything about.

 

[Phrynobatrachus]

something that people do not know is that Putin is not only an Alt-Right darling but also a Far-Left darling for anyone who are anti-globalist and anti-EU.

the fact is the money and funding has funneled through many anti-establishment groups and parties regardless if they are Far-Right or Far-Left. Just as long as they are anti-EU, they get Putin's attention.

the Kool-Aid has crossed the Antlantic Ocean into North America and ANTIFA is clearly anti-EU with Pro-Putin slant

lmfao this is delusional nonsense