From what I understand, the point of Antifa is that it's much easier to stop fascism in the early stages, before it takes over the country. If it gets to the point of civil war, then it's already a massive failure, not a starting point for violence.
Daily Show host Trevor Noah says people see Antifa as "Vegan Isis"
- Thread starter kitsunelaine
- Start date
From what I understand, the point of Antifa is that it's much easier to stop fascism in the early stages, before it takes over the country. If it gets to the point of civil war, then it's already a massive failure, not a starting point for violence.
If you want to discuss what's the most effective direct action against fascism (or if even direct action is justified in the fight against fascism) then by all means, let's do that, I think it's a worthy discussion to have and I have strong opinions on the subject.
But let's not do it in a way that signal boost a bullshit caricature that was created by the right wing media in order to discredit the left, and let's not frame it as something that might get protests against this president a fair coverage on Fox News.
The video game part was pretty interesting considering the big coming out party of the alt right (Milo, Cernovich etc) stuff started in the video game world. The alt right is indeed trying to claim games with gamergate and the like. What a weird thing to seemingly on purpose fuck up/dismiss for a joke?
Steeped in a Sea of Games
Member
Just remember that as many plead for reason, they are using violence against people every day. Trump pardoned a guy who literally tortured minorities. They use the police and jail system to bully and intimidate. They are gladly tearing apart families to stroke their xenophobia. They are bullying lgbt people back into the fringes of society and stripping away more rights every day. Your words mean nothing to them and if they have their way, they will put half this nation under lock and key.
Not really. He is saying people only see the assholes on the news because cable news like Fox is broken so please think twice before being an asshole.
I think you can pull a thread and find a parallel to what people like Trump did in his expectations for a group of random people, but it's a little more nuanced cuz it's also about how much harder the road is for the left when it fucking shouldn't be considering it was a goddamn Nazi rally.
Exactly.
Watch the video. See his comments in context and understand his larger point about violence in protest movements. Otherwise this conversation will tend to be off-base from the get go.
I'm hoping that one of the two parties remains not dominated by crazy people!
The republican party is in shambles and is largely incapable of governing at the federal level. Not to say they are not doing substantial damage, but I'm not sure I'd say they are getting away with much of anything.
This gets at something that is very confusing to me about the rhetoric I keep seeing in these threads. Trump is wildly unpopular, his government is totally ineffectual, his party is incapable of passing any major legislation and they are quite likely to suffer for it in the next few elections. Non-violent protests have been very successful in squashing high-profile white supremacist and neo-nazi rallies. Yet some posters seem to think -- even relish the idea -- that we are in the middle of some apocalyptic war zone and everyone who isn't currently lighting their molotov cocktails ablaze is a coward or a traitor. I don't feel like I'm inhabiting the same reality as some of these people.
We should absolutely confront and denounce fascism at the earliest opportunity. Just not with violence. That's what brings the false narrative of both sidesism. That's Noah's point.
Atom Heart Mother
Banned
Touhou is in the clip!!
lol sure
All that really needs to be said. If this is about our "image" then nothing would change.
kitsunelaine
Banned
Believe me, I know.
Trickster
Member
A comedian making a joke is not the same as the freaking president after a tragedy saying the blame lies on many sides
Fox news is obviously gonna Fox news. The better version of Trevor Noah's argument is about coverage on CNN and local news channels, etc. Of course he doesn't actually make that argument, which makes it significantly harder to defend this segment even though I am generally sympathetic to it...
Have they... not? Am I unaware of some large-scale white supremacist/neonazi rallies that have occurred since Charlottesville? I'm genuinely confused here.
I know things are really fucked up right now and the best way to bring about change as an individual is to act local. Participate in rallies, go to government meetings, get friends involved. Don't hate the assholes, support the real leaders in your community or become one yourself.
I dunno if he is an idiot, but yeah you are right. It really doesn't matter how you position yourself, they'll just make you the devil either way.
That said, boy were they fucking STOKED when a few assholes finally fed their narrative with some headlines.
MisterFalcon
Member
They also assume the state is either unable or unwilling to stop fascism and it's up to their vigilante violence to do that. And ironically that erosion of the position of the state is what let the fascists take power in Germany as they positioned themselves as the answer to war in the streets.
I think that point only makes sense in a fair world, where movements are judged accurately and fairly. The point of propaganda is that you don't present things fairly. It doesn't matter if there are 50 acts of violence, 1 act of violence or no acts of violence. Propaganda will present the movement as violent.
If you simply don't believe in violence yourself, that's fine. I struggle to reconcile my thoughts here as well. Attempting to reduce violence so that the other side can't demonize us is a pointless endeavor though.
moondoggerr
Banned
Ah, a nuanced take thrown into a world where everything is misconstrued, sometimes on purpose. News flash - Trevor Noah thinks violence and vandalism make people look bad.
Steeped in a Sea of Games
Member
Just an excuse. They would have taken power anyway due to the state other countries left Germany in after WWI. Hitler took over on the promise of revitalizing Germany's place in the world.
Even if there's zero violence, they would force the issue some way. They would create it (and have) to try and sell this narrative to dissuade gullible pacifists (who, surprise surprise, mostly tend to lean left).
If you're so worried about people focusing on the small minority who do property damage instead of the bigger issues, maybe you should, oh I don't know, stop focusing on the small minority who do property damage.
Listen, there was never a successful direct action campaign in history that didn't involved some property damage. Including Ghady, including MLK. If your bar is that all direct action must cause no property damage you pretty much say that you're against direct action.
Are you?
Yeah, Antifa at this point is more trouble than they are worth. When I talk to otherwise reasonable people, I lose them a lot when they bring up Antifa; I can reduce them to the few, actually violent members who are causing the trouble -- I can explain that that violence doesn't represent the majority, and I can even go into the virtues of violence *behind* the message if they want to play some kind of zero-sum game on this from a moral standpoint, but it is getting really hard to break through on certain talking points that forward leftist ideals with the noise of their example. And you can say "Oh, well, we don't need to convince these people", but yeah, we actually do. They vote.
So yeah, Trevor is right. I don't want him to be right, but Antifa is hurting a very important message which the left has always tried to forward.
Edit: I want to be clear, I am not even remotely trying to draw any comparison between what Antifa does in general, or even in their extremes, to anything else -- I am talking about the difficulty it poses me and presumably others when trying to communicate, and persuade, that we're not in the wrong. It is hard enough without violence as a talking point others can toss your way.
So yeah, Trevor is right. I don't want him to be right, but Antifa is hurting a very important message which the left has always tried to forward.
Edit: I want to be clear, I am not even remotely trying to draw any comparison between what Antifa does in general, or even in their extremes, to anything else -- I am talking about the difficulty it poses me and presumably others when trying to communicate, and persuade, that we're not in the wrong. It is hard enough without violence as a talking point others can toss your way.
Massive Duck. C.M.
Banned
I don't really buy the argument that violence turns people away from a message, because these same people who I'm told would turn away from the left because of protest violence or damage are apparently unmoved by violence and damage from the right.
The more likely case is they were always more right leaning and just needed an excuse.
The more likely case is they were always more right leaning and just needed an excuse.
Can you name a leftist movement that wasn't at some point labeled violent by the right?
Can you name one that has done it right?
Steeped in a Sea of Games
Member
So those people will vote conservative when they literally have KKK members beating people with sticks and white supremacists running people over with cars? They were never going to vote left and are just looking for excuses to try and justify being immoral.
Oh, hell, don't get me wrong, I'm not looking for the right to be fair or intellectually honest, it's more the moderates that are caught up in the rhetoric of the right, who get funneled videos or information that, while contextually manipulated, makes it harder for us to deliver clear and concise messages.
As far as getting a movement right, as Chichikov posted, violence in some forms happen -- it's uncontrollable. The only thing that is really controllable I suppose is the messaging, after the fact.
Excellent point, and I am *definitely* not talking about convincing people that are a lost cause. I'm talking about friends or family who we believe we can have a positive effect on. Micro, not macro scale.
kitsunelaine
Banned
Explain to me how Trevor's messaging is helping things if, by your own admission, it will ultimately have no positive impact.
I get you, but understand that it is not just the "moderates" that are falling for conservative messaging, you are as well. The fact that you know that Antifa are a largely non-violent group, but are concerned and thinking Antifa may be more trouble than they're worth, the fact that Trevor Noah felt the need to make this segment, the fact that this discussion is even happening...all of it is a glowing testament to the right's well-honed ability to label anything violent, and the left's well-honed ability to keep falling for it.
I don't actually know if he is helping things, to be honest. He may not be, but I do think he is correct in asserting that there are many people who see Antifa is an enemy even when only a very minute number of their community actually cause any violence. My evidence for that only comes from some I have spoken to, so anecdotal at best.
That's a really smart observation, and probably more truth to it than I'd like to admit.
kitsunelaine
Banned
Okay. Now answer me this: By propagating this message as an okay way to think so long as there is a reason to think it (i.e, "so long as any violent acts are taking place whatsoever"), is it not possible that his messaging will have a negative effect by way of enabling right-wing rhetoric?
It is possible, yes.
kitsunelaine
Banned
Therein lies why people are mad about this quote. They see no positive outcome, and they ultimately see it as enabling messaging that will hurt their cause.
WaterAstro
Member
Does this mean that Obama is a vegan because he's "the founder of ISIS"?
So he recognizes that the right wrongly see Antifa as a violent hate group, and his solution is basically to get the left to also turn on Antifa, because the right misinterpreting Antifas message is hurting the cause. The only thing hurting the cause are the centre right/left people (historically as per usual) caving into the right rhetoric.
Massive Duck. C.M.
Banned
daps this post
Steeped in a Sea of Games
Member
Yeah, I completely understand that. That said, as a statement it does ring true to my personal experience of how people are interpreting the actions of a few to paint broader strokes on the picture.
ReplacementPelican
Member
I mean, Trevor (we're on first name terms, don't worry). You were born into apartheid South Africa. The ANC actively bombed and attacked places, they were labelled as a terrorist organisation and now they're the ruling party of a united country.
Then you want to turn around and say 'oh no Antifa punched a Nazi who wants black people and Jewish people out of our country, how does that make us look. Why would people support our side if we punch a Nazi?'
Now, I know the situation in SA was a lot more extreme but so was the response. We've seen this shit before and we need to nip it in the bud.
I understand where he's coming from though, especially with the example of the starbucks worker.
Then you want to turn around and say 'oh no Antifa punched a Nazi who wants black people and Jewish people out of our country, how does that make us look. Why would people support our side if we punch a Nazi?'
Now, I know the situation in SA was a lot more extreme but so was the response. We've seen this shit before and we need to nip it in the bud.
I understand where he's coming from though, especially with the example of the starbucks worker.
Exterminieren
Banned
Being a Nazi is an act of aggression in and of itself.
He ain't Trump his answer is not the same as he's talking about how other ppl view antifa since Charlotteville. unlike Trump Trevor Noah waited a tad bit longer than one day to delve into this controversial topic.
astroturfing
Member
while i was reading this and considering my stance, a friend linked a clip of Antifa assaulting a disabled person in a wheelchair..
yeah, its gotten out of hand. im with Trevor and Noam Chomsky on this. CALM the fuck down, CONTROL yourselves ffs. fighting the far-right should be a bit more strategic than just acting like obnoxious teenagers with no impulse control.
yeah, its gotten out of hand. im with Trevor and Noam Chomsky on this. CALM the fuck down, CONTROL yourselves ffs. fighting the far-right should be a bit more strategic than just acting like obnoxious teenagers with no impulse control.
Yes, remember that antifa fights for racial cleansing and genocide of the Jewish people. The same scum indeed.
nephilimdj
Member
They are against the core of most western countries, they are pro national flag burning and we saw at G20 only a few months ago in Germany that they believe that burning "luxury" cars was sending a message.
No the antifa fights to attack the police and destroy whole districts like they have been in my for the last 20 years.
They are using violence to promote their political and ideological goals aka the definition of terrorists.
You need to keep in mind that "antifa" doesn't just mean "anti-fascist" for a big part of the World, but is used to describe the most extreme-leaning part of this group. The ones thinking violence is a good way to take care of the problem. We are not talking property damage but straight up beating the shit out of neo-nazis, which is quite a step up in the "action" you are taking to support your ideas.
You can be anti-fascist without supporting the antifa movements.