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[PhineBuyM3]

I also think Cage's attitude adds more salt to the wound of spending money on a game that where neither the story nor gameplay is worth a hoot and makes gamers who find themselves unsatisfied with his work not hold back when they rip them to shreds.

 

[fvng]

I also think Cage's attitude adds more salt to the wound of spending money on a game that where neither the story nor gameplay is worth a hoot and makes gamers who find themselves unsatisfied with his work not hold back when they rip them to shreds.

And which attitude is that?

 

[Emdeepee]

The reality is classic adventure games from LucasArts were essentially interactive movies with no twitch gameplay.

I think this is a fair enough point. In fact, having just perused the Amiga Power reviews the two Monkey island games, I am certain that this was seen as a positive where technology was allowing point and click adventure games to become a more cinematic experience. From a general point of view, it is fair to call the games 'similar' experiences.

If Heavy Rain or Beyond came out in the 90s, they would have certainly been pixel based adventure games. I don't understand how any gamer who loved those old games can reconcile that with complaints about Cage's games "lacking gameplay"

They certainly would have been pixel based point and click games, they would also have been bad point and click adventure games in my opinion. The different mechanics have been described often enough, so all I will add is that people can easily reconcile enjoying one and not the other because they feel the interactive nature of the old Lucasarts games is more fun than the interactive nature of Cage's games. The mechanics are fundamentally different.

In fact, I would go as far to say if his games had been released at the same time as the Lucasarts games when there was a huge amount of variety on offer in this particular genre, Cage's games would not have been viewed particularly favourably.

For example Westwood's Blade Runner, a point and click adventure with little real puzzle solving and some (on reflection quite remarkably) similar gameplay mechanics to Heavy Rain was released 17 years ago. It is also a superior game, for reasons that can't simply be reduced to core gameplay mechanics.

Frankly, the only difference between classic games like these and David Cage games is the AAA graphics.

As an aside, if I recall correctly Lucasarts games where pretty much the definition of AAA production values of their time.

 

[a.wd]

Because his interactive movies where you press a button to continue dialogue is not as good as the puzzles and interactive world's that were created by lucasarts. Plus the style of games are not really that similar, Imo of cours

 

[Amazeballs]

lol

You really don't even need to dig that deep.

If we're basing this off of fundamental writing techniques games that outdo David Cages works are a dime a dozen. You'd be hard pressed to find a game that outdoes the sheer pretentiousness, but thankfully pretentiousness is not a writing technique no matter how many developers want to believe it is.

 

[QaaQer]

because David Cage is popular and has controversial opinions about gaming the internet will hate him. Doesn't matter though his games sell millions so for those of us who like them we will continue to get his work

I do think if Cage remained anonymous there wouldn't be such hate towards the games.

I am still not even sure why people hate David Cage, the person.

He's doesn't have the inflammatory or antagonistic qualities of someone like Cliffy B, Fish or Jaffe. I've always seen Cage present himself as a mild mannered person that cares about video games and experimenting with the medium....but as far as I can tell he has said nothing to become such a lightning rod for hatred.

Hating his works? Fine to each his own, but hating the person? Why? Because he's outspoken and vocal about his personal vision for gaming?

I really liked this video: P.F. and Internet Celebrity

 

[Morfeo]

Cage's games consistently get attacked for being interactive movies without any real gameplay, but I often see these same critics turn around and fawn over 90s adventure games like Grim Fandango.. The reality is classic adventure games from LucasArts were essentially interactive movies with no twitch gameplay..

(referring specifically to the classic LucasArts games I grew up with (Monkey Island, Loom, Day of the Tentacle, Full Throttle, Grim Fandango)

Frankly, the only difference between classic games like these and David Cage games is the AAA graphics. If Heavy Rain or Beyond came out in the 90s, they would have certainly been pixel based adventure games. I don't understand how any gamer who loved those old games can reconcile that with complaints about Cage's games "lacking gameplay"

(thread is about complaints about gameplay, not quality of story or storytelling)

I dont get this comparison. The Lucasarts-games have great puzzles, which is the meat of the gameplay in those games. Pretty different from the Cage-games.

 

[Axass]

Where is this kind of stuff in Heavy Rain? That's only the first act out of four, too.

Where can I find the rest? If they exist, that is.

Seems a nice insight on how they designed the puzzles in the game.

 

[tmarques]

Heavy Rain is nothing like Lucas Arts adventure games. If anything, it's like Dragon Lair.

 

[Pop On Arrival]

Everything david cage puts out there just seems embarrassing. Heavy rain was boring, poorly written doodie. Terrible voice acting, uninteresting characters, retarded twists. God, even their PS4demo was lame with that "wacky" green mexican goblin. The people that find that shit funny are the same people that enjoy shit like EPIC MOVIE.

 

[ViewtifulJC]

I actually legit slapped my forehead when I read this thread title

well done OP

 

[Con_Smith]

I tend to appreciate David Cage for trying to make something different than his actual execution. I loved indigo prophecy and enjoyed Beyond and HR. While his he can't finish a story to save his life and seems to not understand how Americans actually speak to each other the man has a flair for making great adventure game set pieces on a AAA budget.

But that's just me though, I like the idea of games going for a more cinematic experience but my thoughts on what that means and the people who peddle the concept seem to be at odds once I experience their vision.

 

[Con_Smith]

Everything david cage puts out there just seems embarrassing. Heavy rain was boring, poorly written doodie. Terrible voice acting, uninteresting characters, retarded twists. God, even their PS4demo was lame with that "wacky" green mexican goblin. The people that find that shit funny are the same people that enjoy shit like EPIC MOVIE.

Goblin was a black guy. Not a Mexican.

 

[DICKS AHOY]

Eh, LucasArts games have puzzles. Puzzles = gameplay.

A better comparison would be comparing Telltale's games to Cage's games.

Yeah, this.

And I prefer Wolf Among Us/The Walking Dead (S&M/Tales of MI clearly count more as LucasArts style point and click puzzle adventures games) because they're better written and hence engage with me a lot more. My experience with Heavy Rain was like an interactive version of The Room. So enjoyable, but absolutely not for the reasons Cage intended... I think.

I still want to try out Beyond though because I actually thought it looked way better than HR visually and had actual actors and competent voice actors, so I'm really weirded out it got panned but HR was for awhile held up as a reason why games are art.

 

[p2535748]

Where can I find the rest? If they exist, that is.

Seems a nice insight on how they designed the puzzles in the game.

You can search google for "Grim Fandango Design Document". Here's a link to one place that has it:

http://gameshelf.jmac.org/2008/11/grim-fandango-puzzle-design-do/

It's a good read.

 

[Uncle Rupee]

yes it's pixel hunt without the pixel hunting because who the fuck wants to do that? pixel hunting is a relic of the 90s, even Telltale thankfully realized this is a waste of the player's time. Removing the hunt aspect of this is just an evolution of the genre and respecting the player's time.

As has been said on the very first page of this thread, there's no logical connection between David Cage's games and the Lucas Arts point-and-click games.

The correct comparison would be the old laser disc games like Dragon's Lair with slightly more interactivity / choices and fewer choices that result in instant death. That's about all Cage's games do differently from them.

Secondly, if you were to compare these two very different genres, there is way more going on in a point-and-click adventure game. It's the difference between a test with written answers and the other, multiple choice.

 

[fvng]

God, even their PS4demo was lame with that "wacky" green mexican goblin. .

Whaaaat? You honestly can't tell the difference between a black persona and a Mexican one? REALLY? You can't honestly be that racially sheltered right?

As has been said on the very first page of this thread, there's no logical connection between David Cage's games and the Lucas Arts point-and-click games.

The correct comparison would be the old laser disc games like Dragon's Lair with slightly more interactivity / choices and fewer choices that result in instant death. That's about all Cage's games do differently from them.

Secondly, if you were to compare these two very different genres, there is way more going on in a point-and-click adventure game. It's the difference between a test with written answers and multiple choice.

Heavy Rain is nothing like Lucas Arts adventure games. If anything, it's like Dragon Lair.

While there are definitely QTE Dragon's Lair segments in Cage's games, it's totally disingenuous to say that's the entire experience. As if you don't walk around talking to characters, or as if there is no exploration period. I don't remember anything like that in Dragon's Lair. Statements Ike that make me wonder if you're speaking in hyperbole or never actually played QD's games

 

[Pop On Arrival]

Whaaaat? You honestly can't tell the difference between a black persona and a Mexican one? REALLY? You can't honestly be that racially sheltered right?

lmao. i watched the trailer once. who gives a shit what race the fucking goblin is in reality? My main point was that it was unfunny and douchey. Not that it was mexican. christ.

 

[fvng]

lmao. i watched the trailer once. who gives a shit what race the fucking goblin is in reality? My main point was that it was unfunny and douchey. Not that it was mexican. christ.

oh I know I understand your point, I just thought your racial obliviousness was hilariously and tragically off the charts

 

[ChimpanzeeThat]

Solving puzzles is fun, pressing X to call for Jason is not.

Don't get me wrong, i liked Heavy Rain for the story (although i cannot say the same for any other David Cage game) but the gameplay elements require next to no thought. And i still don't know why the FBI agent had an Oculus Rift.

 

[Willy Wanka]

I do like Cage's games for the most part but for me the gameplay design and the quality of writing put Lucasarts games well ahead. To me they are timeless classics and I'm not sure I'll be saying the same thing about Heavy Rain and Fahrenheit in 15-20 years time.

 

[Chuck Norris]

LucasArts games aren't that well written, but they are charming

 

[Uncle Rupee]

While there are definitely QTE Dragon's Lair segments in Cage's games, it's totally disingenuous to say that's the entire experience. As if you don't walk around talking to characters, or as if there is no exploration period. I don't remember anything like that in Dragon's Lair. Statements Ike that make me wonder if you're speaking in hyperbole or never actually played QD's games

Like I said his games offer more interactivity and fewer choices result in instant death. Obviously there will be more freedom and options when you go from FMV clips to a real-time engine. That doesn't change the fact that Cage's games are essentially a next-gen Dragon's Lair and have very little in common with point-and-click adventure games.

Furthermore, the reason Lucas Art's games are fondly remembered is because people enjoyed the stories / characters. If Cage's games had better stories and characters you would see a lot less criticism of them. By and large most people criticize his extremely bad writing, which uses supernatural or sci-fi bullshit as a crutch in otherwise realistic settings. There's nothing inherently wrong with making games in that style, but if you're going to do it, at least make the story / characters worth spending time with.

 

[Interceptor]

As many said before the old Lucas Arts games put a heavy emphasis on exploration, humor and puzzle solving. Cage games are more like Simon Says combined with an 80s B-Movie which is totally fine. I'd still love to see a kara game though.

 

[fvng]

I really liked this video: P.F. and Internet Celebrity

Good video but when it comes to egomania, cockiness, and arrogance... Phil Fish and David Cage aren't even in the same league.

I think the claims of Cage's "pretentiousness" is just a reaction to him being vocal about his vision for games..... and the claims of arrogance is probably a cultural association with French & smugness.

We've seen Phil Fish be totally obnoxious, I have never seen any sort of obnoxiousness come out of David Cage.

 

[AuthenticM]

As others have said, "lack of gameplay" is not the only thing that comes up when discussing David Cage's games. The writing is also a big part of the discussion, and is my personal problem with his games; not the gameplay.

 

[Wiktor]

Gabriel Knight 2 begs to differ. The problem is many 90s FMV based games were garbage, but there were good ones, GK2 being a notable example
.

I don't think you remember what game Gabriel Knight was. Yes, it used FMVs, but it was full blooded adventure game, with lots of plenty of damn hard puzzles.

It is indeed one of the rare examples of FMV games being being good, but that's because they actually added lots of high quality gameplay to it. Something Cage's game lately simply lack.

GK2 had great story, but if it didn't have traditional adventure gameplay it would be trashed completely by reviewers and fans.

 

[jhmtehgamr20xx]

lol

I know right? I think OP is also preoccupied with the notion that a game has to have a film-like setup for it's story (basically, the kind of setup all non-interactive medium use aside from music, in most cases) in order to have a good story. Some of the best games of all time are also great partially because they have a world design that gives a sense of mythology to let the player piece together the story, whether it's in careful little pieces or abstractly. And they do that while taking advantage of the unique capabilities of video games that you don't have in other media (the interactivity).

Stories don't have to be spoon-fed to you to be good stories; in fact most of the best stories require some serious thinking. And any game that can present its story through the actual playing instead of in cutscenes is going to have a better story in my eyes than a game that can't do that (or atleast it'll start off on a better footing for me; I am playing a game here, not watching a movie).

By that measure, Mario has a better story than Heavy Rain, and it's not the only one.

 

[faceless007]

Hey guys, did you know that if you ignore all the aspects that make two things categorically different from one another, you can say they're the same and accuse everyone who likes one but not the other of being a hypocrite?

 

[fvng]

By that measure, Mario has a better story than Heavy Rain, and it's not the only one.

This is where you lost me

 

[EVOL 100%]

I really don't care if a game has 'no gameplay' if it has semi competent writing. I never complained about that aspect of Cage's games. 999 and the LucasArts games would be canned if they were released as novels, but they feel coherent and have engaging plots and do what they do well.

Cage's games aim for the sky but burn harder. The former are like good punk songs - in terms of theory they're very basic but they're executed well and are thus enjoyable. Cage's games feel like they're the product of a 15 year old kid trying to write a classical symphony and failing miserably. They're more ambitious but because the execution is so bad the flaws are much more pronounced.

 

[Lord Error]

Like I said his games offer more interactivity and fewer choices result in instant death. Obviously there will be more freedom and options when you go from FMV clips to a real-time engine. That doesn't change the fact that Cage's games are essentially a next-gen Dragon's Lair and have very little in common with point-and-click adventure games.

Yeah, that's BS. Cage's games have free roaming exploration and item interaction, user selectable dialogue branching, light puzzle solving, on top of quick button pressing actions, which is the only aspect of his games comparable to Dragons Lair.

 

[killatopak]

ehhh. I liked heavy rain. as well as asura's wrath.

to each their own i guess.

By that measure, Mario has a better story than Heavy Rain, and it's not the only one.

what?

 

[Wiktor]

ehhh. I liked heavy rain. as well as asura's wrath.

to each their own i guess.


what?

Yeah...lol. There are many excellent cases of games telling their story through exploration and enviorement, but Mario isn't one of them.

 

[Dr Bass]

because David Cage is popular and has controversial opinions about gaming the internet will hate him. Doesn't matter though his games sell millions so for those of us who like them we will continue to get his work

I don't think he has controversial opinions.

The reason people react poorly to his statements is that he calls other peoples work "crap", and states his games are "more meaningful."

From where I am sitting, his games are silly, with silly writing and silly interaction. There is nothing about his games I don't "get" since they are pretty simple and straightforward, both gameplay-wise and thematically.

For the record, I would be totally fine with his stuff if he didn't say things like, "You can continue to play crap or you can play something more meaningful." Why not just say "I am doing my best to make the most meaningful game I can"? That leaves the seat of judgement in the hands of the player. He is saying his games are meaningful. That is an absurd thing for any creator to claim for himself.

 

[NotTheGuyYouKill]

My main issue with Cage is that he's an awful writer.

 

[wanderingprostheyltite]

Frankly, the only difference between classic games like these and David Cage games is the AAA graphics.

Or, you know, humor and writing that's overall a lot better than anything Cage has ever produced. I would argue the overall tone and atmosphere of most of those old Lucasarts games is also a lot more appealing due to the cartoon style, and the writing and voice acting (when it's present like in Fandango) makes the world a lot more fun and interesting to explore. And to be fair, Lucasarts puzzles involved a fair amount more exploration and experimentation than most of the gameplay in a Cage release.

 

[CosmicGroinPull]

I think you're comparing apples and oranges. There's tonnes of gameplay in old school adventure games, it's called puzzle solving and or pixel hunting.

 

[SocksForWoks]

Cage's games focus too much on characterization and storylines, these aspects are the least desired for a videogame.

LucasArts games while had a similar focus, had much better writing and the artstyles and non-realistic stories just made them enjoyable.

 

[RockmanWhore]

Cage should really hire a bunch of competant writer or two for his next projects. He obviously as some skill when it comes to manage a studio and he has a good vision, but its writing talent isn't up to its ambitions.

(thread is about complaints about gameplay, not quality of story or storytelling)

Also I'm sorry but I don't think this premise is valid for Quantid Dream's last games. In these games, everything is centered arround telling a story, in a story driven game, the story IS the gameplay. That's precisely why games like Phoenix Wright, The Walking Dead or P&C games don't get much complains about their lack of gameplay.

 

[matrixman92]

I love Cages games and I love LucasArts games. I found Beyond two souls story to be enthralling. I was hooked from beginning to end

 

[fvng]

Or, you know, humor and writing that's overall a lot better than anything Cage has ever produced. I would argue the overall tone and atmosphere of most of those old Lucasarts games is also a lot more appealing due to the cartoon style, and the writing and voice acting (when it's present like in Fandango) makes the world a lot more fun and interesting to explore. And to be fair, Lucasarts puzzles involved a fair amount more exploration and experimentation than most of the gameplay in a Cage release.

we aint talking about writing, despite numerous attempts to crobar writing into what is a thread about gameplay

I think you're comparing apples and oranges. There's tonnes of gameplay in old school adventure games, it's called puzzle solving and or pixel hunting.

Puzzle solving yes, but I would never call pixel hunting gameplay.. unless you think where's waldos book are gameplay

That's precisely why games like Phoenix Wright, The Walking Dead or P&C games don't get much complains about their lack of gameplay.

How is story gameplay? Story and gameplay, even in a QD game are separate components of the game.

 

[jman2050]

LucasArts -> Adventure games

David Cage -> High-budget visual novels

This pretty much covers it.

Not that there's anything wrong with visual novel type games but Cage is a shitty writer soooo...

 

[fvng]

Yeah, that's BS. Cage's games have free roaming exploration and item interaction, user selectable dialogue branching, light puzzle solving, on top of quick button pressing actions, which is the only aspect of his games comparable to Dragons Lair.

stop shitting on their arguments

 

[Farks!]

Because the old LucasArts adventures had puzzle gameplay. Heavy Rain has this.

 

[Wiktor]

we aint talking about writing, despite numerous attempts to crobar writing into what is a thread about gameplay

THe problem with your argument is that the story is the only thing you can actually compare between classic adventure games and Cage's recent works. Because their gameplay is vastly different. Without writing your agument makes no sense.

Essentially it's like comparing Need for Speed Rivals to Halo, because Halo had tiny Warthog driving sections. So you're essentially asking why people weren't hugely thrilled by Need for Speed Rivals when they love Halo series so much.

People got it right early on in this thread, if you're looking for older game type that is similiar to Cage's works then it's visual novels, not typical P&C adventure games.

 

[fvng]

THe problem with your argument is that the story is the only thing you can actually compare between classic adventure games and Cage's recent works. Because their gameplay is vastly different. Without writing your agument makes no sense.

Essentially it's like comparing Need for Speed Rivals to Halo, because Halo had tiny Warthog driving sections. So you're essentially asking why people weren't hugely thrilled by Need for Speed Rivals when they love Halo series so much.

People got it right early on in this thread, if you're looking for older game type that is similiar to Cage's works then it's visual novels, not typical P&C adventure games.

Visual Novels is an even worse analogy speaking strictly from a gameplay perspective.

 

[Wiktor]

Visual Novels is an even worse analogy speaking strictly from a gameplay perspective.

Not really. Cage;s games (especially Heavy Rain and Beyond) are much closer to visual novels from gameplay standpoint. There's plenty of titles exactly like them, concentrating on figuring out the path through multiple story routes, while spicing it up with mini games.

Heck, if you get to the very basics then from gameplay standoing Cage's games have more in common with action games than adventure titles.

Simply put the heavy focus on story is the only thing that Cage's games have in common with classic adventure games and when you remove story from equation the whole thing becomes about comparing apples to volleyballs.

Going back to your first post people love LucasArts games because of their writing and puzzle solving. You don't want to compare the stories, so all you're left is gameplay, which is wildly different. So why are you surprised that people that love one kind of gameplay don't automatically like a different kind of gameplay?

 

[Auto-Reply]

Even LOOM had more gameplay to it than every Cage game combined, bad comparison!

 

[The Spoony Hou]

This is where you lost me

His point flew over your head, I'll try to help you a little bit.

Everything that happens in a game is part of the story. Just because it's not a cutscene doesn't mean what we are seeing are not part of what happens to the main character.

Do you remember that time when Mario was running on a bridge dodging jumping cheep-cheeps? Or when he was trying to figure out the right path in one of Bowser's castles? Or when he ran under a hammer at the nick of time and broke the block where that hammer bros was standing, plunging him to his death?

It's all part of the first Super Mario Bros story, only you did all that.