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[markot]

How many nukes would it take to totally obliterate the islands so no one can have them?

 

[Fuzz Rez]

How many nukes would it take to totally obliterate the islands so no one can have them?

They would just fight over the water territories then.

 

[Fivefold]

It's related because Mao was the leader of China during and after World War II. It didn't happen 200 years ago like your founding father analogy.

So it's relevant that you revere a dictator, and yet decry another nation who honors theirs during the same time no? Especially one who invades and occupies another nation and then claims imperialistic rule over it in the decades since?

China doesn't really "revere" Mao since the Deng Xiaoping days. While criticism of him is still not really that open, a lot of party officials have gone on record saying he was a great war and revolutionary leader but his later policies were mistaken and delayed the country's progress by decades.

 

[laesperanzapaz]

all this discussion of "evil" or how "evil" a given historical figure is always comes off as pretty damned bias.

From my personal perspective, however, Mao is right up there with Stalin in terms of absolute numbers perished. Hitler, of course, is a whole nother level. And guys like Milosevich is like mini Hitler.

As this thread shows, there are people who actually believe Mao was either "unaware" of what his actions were doing, or at least was not deliberately callous as to purposefully do what he did. Sorry, but there is no proof of that. You can say the same argument for Stalin, but I personally call bull on that.

And I don't see how conservvative Japanese politicians is any more callous than, say, equivalent politicians from the US or India or (insert favorite country). I think the reason Japan gets more news play in the West is because for many obvious reasons, Japan, Korea and China (the principal countries butting heads) are so prominent in global awareness, as opposed to some unknown Third WOrld country.

just my two cents.

 

[Madness]

I sympathize with Chinese, Koreans, people from Taiwan. I really do. What Japan did during its expansions and occupations is horrendous. More people should know about their atrocities during world War II and events like the Nanking/Nanjing Massacre.

My point was, is it really a big deal that some politicians visited a shrine meant to honor those who died in the service of Japan because said shrine also housed the names or possible remains of people that were declared war criminals?

But apparently, I'm in the wrong here and I accept that then. It's good we've got this thread/discussion, we can learn or understand how others feel about this divisive issue.

 

[showx]

So since japan visited some war shrine, now its ok for the chinese to invade their islands? I think you guys are ignoring the bigger issue.

 

[fizzelopeguss]

The chinese don't have a leg to stand on. Ever increasing belligerence and prodding of their neighbours only to turn around and yell "look! nationalism on the rise!"

 

[Kabouter]

So since japan visited some war shrine, now its ok for the chinese to invade their islands? I think you guys are ignoring the bigger issue.

To the Chinese it isn't invading Japanese islands, given that the status of those islands is disputed.

 

[numble]

So since japan visited some war shrine, now its ok for the chinese to invade their islands? I think you guys are ignoring the bigger issue.

The sovereignty of the islands are disputed and are recognized as such by major powers such as the United States, who takes no sides on the sovereignty of the islands.

 

[maomaoIYP]

My point was, is it really a big deal that some politicians visited a shrine meant to honor those who died in the service of Japan because said shrine also housed the names or possible remains of people that were declared war criminals?

Yes. It really is. Because Japan has a very bad track record of admitting the level of atrocity committed by them during WW2.

Also enshrinement is akin to ascendance to deity-hood.

People who are normally enshrined are those with significant contribution to Japanese society, like significantly important emperors.

 

[Madness]

You know, it's probably my own ignorance. The level of Japanese involvement in World War II atrocities is not really common knowledge outside of East Asia. Aside from things like the Nanking massacre or events like the attack on Pearl Harbor. So it probably seems like a smaller deal to me than it really was.

I also wonder if the Japanese were more forthcoming or apologetic and acknowledged the war crimes, if it would lessen the stigma.

Does anyone here know if many Japanese citizens visit the shrine? Also you're right, we're forgetting that Japans nationalistic act in visiting the shrine provokes nationalistic retaliation from China and South Korea.

 

[Fivefold]

Also it's important to note that since 1978, when they enshrined the Class A war criminals there, no japanese emperor has ever visited Yasukuni.

Politicians just use the place as a cheap way to bolster their support with the right wing voters, specially these days when there's such a strong anti-chinese and anti-korean sentiment in Japan.

Does anyone here know if many Japanese citizens visit the shrine? Also you're right, we're forgetting that Japans nationalistic act in visiting the shrine provokes nationalistic retaliation from China and South Korea.

It's a beautiful shrine and very popular. The official cherry blossom season start is actually dictated by a sakura tree at Yasukuni and the Mitama Matsuri in July is one of the most famous festivals in Tokyo.

 

[I Stalk Alone]

the politicians are not going to the shrine to specifically honour war criminals they are there for the 99.99% who are not war criminals. The Japanese army invaded my country during the war but i cant blame what is happening today in my old country on that. Otherwise i would have to blame spain for 400 years of slavery and the usa for another 100 years of occupation. Let them remember the dead as it is not a direct act of defiance or disrespect. The chinese and korean people have plenty more local things to worry about than a now peaceful nation because the japanese seemed to have learned the consequences of their actions while korea is still divided and china is still a country with huge geopolitical issues. let us not forget this. my great grandfather was killed by japanese soldiers. Yes, war is terrible, but the dead from both sides should be remembered no matter what because they bravely chose to follow the orders of their nation for better or for worse knowing full well of the fate the lay ahead. japan is sorry but you cannot drag down the people who have nothing to do with that past.

also, those disputed islands are purely to do with money because of resources. if anything no country should purely own the waters, it should be a joint cooperation to make sure it is sustainable. national pride is just pure theatre. more to do with gas, oil and fish than flag waving.....

 

[maomaoIYP]

You know, it's probably my own ignorance. The level of Japanese involvement in World War II atrocities is not really common knowledge outside of East Asia. Aside from things like the Nanking massacre or events like the attack on Pearl Harbor. So it probably seems like a smaller deal to me than it really was.

I also wonder if the Japanese were more forthcoming or apologetic and acknowledged the war crimes, if it would lessen the stigma.

You can start by reading this page: Comfort women.

Also, if they acknowledged the war crimes, there would be no need to visit enshrined war criminals would there?

 

[KillerMan91]

You can start by reading this page: Comfort women.

Also, if they acknowledged the war crimes, there would be no need to visit enshrined war criminals would there?

Well the shrine is still memorial to all those 2.5 million non war criminals too. If they removed the names of war criminals from the shrine I really wouldn't have problem with the visits. Most of the dead were normal fathers and sons that died for the country so anyone should not have problems if only they were honoured.

 

[lupinko]

Meiji Restoration? Shrine in question isn't just for WWII soldiers or just for soldiers.

Pretty much it's for anyone, police, firefighters, jdf, and many even non Japanese are enshrined, even that one Japanese Christian guy got enshrined and his wife (who is also Christian) sued to get him out of the shrine for symbolic reasons, but was denied.

Basically if they just found some way to kick out the war criminals it would be alright, I dunno with some other means like the Ghostbusters.