For regular difficulties, that'd be a welcome change, but I think keeping gimmick modes like Heaven or Hell / Hell and Hell / One Dangerous Demon as unlocks would be a better choice, they're more just extra things rather than being essential to the core of the game.
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Devil May Cry 4 Special Edition |OT| Two girls, one motivated Vergil
- Thread starter Sigmaah
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For regular difficulties, that'd be a welcome change, but I think keeping gimmick modes like Heaven or Hell / Hell and Hell / One Dangerous Demon as unlocks would be a better choice, they're more just extra things rather than being essential to the core of the game.
We simply don't know what perceived little changes or additions would really take in the grand scheme of development for this budget title. This stuff has to go through an approval process and bug testing. This isn't 2007 anymore. Everything gets pulled through the budgetary ringer now. It's just an unfortunate consequence of the growth of the corporate element of game publishing.
As noted before, the gloves come off with DMC5. There will be no more excuses.
As noted before, the gloves come off with DMC5. There will be no more excuses.
I guess it's like One Dangerous Zombie in RE1.
Personally I think GMD should be unlockable after Must Die, along with the gimmick modes. To me it would lose some of its appeal of being the ultimate challenge if it's immediately obtainable after beating the game just once. Then again there's the question of how Super character unlocking should work.
It had been like that for a while before 2007, though. Things are just even stricter now due to HD development being way more work- and resource-intensive than before.
Personally I think GMD should be unlockable after Must Die, along with the gimmick modes. To me it would lose some of its appeal of being the ultimate challenge if it's immediately obtainable after beating the game just once. Then again there's the question of how Super character unlocking should work.
It had been like that for a while before 2007, though. Things are just even stricter now due to HD development being way more work- and resource-intensive than before.
Just read that description. If it's a super powerful enemy that stalks you then that's cool but if it's not killable then that's lame for DMC.
They could do a Nemesis system with that where if this super powerful enemy kills you then it teleport into the world of one of the players on your friends list only he becomes even stronger every time he kills a player. They did that for Diablo 3 on consoles.
They could do a Nemesis system with that where if this super powerful enemy kills you then it teleport into the world of one of the players on your friends list only he becomes even stronger every time he kills a player. They did that for Diablo 3 on consoles.
direct_quote
Member
DMC5 needs enemies that are like a Dante/Vergil boss fight, but as an actual regular enemy.
If LDK mode returns, I hope they add multiples/combinations of bosses to it, in addition to the changes to regular enemy formations. It'd be a good addition to Bloody Palace as well. In any case, I just want them to give us a way to fight multiple bosses without having to resort to external solutions.
Along with pursuing that in the regular enemy design; depending on the sort of bosses DMCV has, having a mode which functions as half regular mission, half boss rush where bosses have a chance of spawning in rooms that can support them might be interesting. It'd be a little like replacing every enemy in 4 with Credo, except hopefully with a little more variety.
Definitely. If Capcom even tries to half ass DMC5, they will be called on it. Big Time.
I just hope it won't come to that.
Cool. Can't wait to see it.
i'll post the thread for you, fuck it
unless you're just gonna post it in the choice thread
that analysis that guardianE did was great and that kinda stuff needs more attention
Fancy Clown
Member
Hello again brehs.
I beat Transformers, and loved it. Ended up just copping this since it's $25 bucks and I was feeling a Capcom action game over Ninja Theory $40 action game. And so far it definitely feels like a Capcom game, in good and bad ways. I played to mission 4 on human but it was too easy so I started over on the devil difficulty and it feels good so far. I like how your skills just carry over.
Story seems goofy as shit so far, but entertainingly so for the most part. Cutscenes are a bit long. I assume the game gets a lot more fun once you've unlocked a bunch of moves? I dont have too many so it's kind repetitive thus far just banging out the same few moves and mixing it up with devil bringer and the gun. Still enjoyable, but I only occasionally get A style ranks and so far nothing above that. I don't really like how the jump feels tho, it's kinda stiff and awkward. Also is there a way to close the distance between you and an enemy withoutpulling them toward you? Lock on and evade forward just does a short hop up instead of a roll/dive forward. Coming off Transformers this game is a lot less instantaneously satisfying, where everything in that game looks and feels good and you're doing epic shit from the start, but I feel like this will have a lot more depth judging by the move list of stuff I can purchase.
Not really sure what I'm doing with Nero's charge up sword either. It takes a long time to fully charge with the revs, but I can occasionally get an instant charge in combat by tapping it during attacks although I have no idea what the timing is.
I'm enjoying it reasonably well so far though, and I imagine it will get a lot better once I know what I'm doing and have a bunch of moves. Unless I can't pull them off or the combo inputs get too confusing...
Also I finally understand "the time has come and so have I" meme. Holy fuck I can't believe that's an actual lyric in the game. That's amazing.
Any tips to help me not suck would be gr8
I beat Transformers, and loved it. Ended up just copping this since it's $25 bucks and I was feeling a Capcom action game over Ninja Theory $40 action game. And so far it definitely feels like a Capcom game, in good and bad ways. I played to mission 4 on human but it was too easy so I started over on the devil difficulty and it feels good so far. I like how your skills just carry over.
Story seems goofy as shit so far, but entertainingly so for the most part. Cutscenes are a bit long. I assume the game gets a lot more fun once you've unlocked a bunch of moves? I dont have too many so it's kind repetitive thus far just banging out the same few moves and mixing it up with devil bringer and the gun. Still enjoyable, but I only occasionally get A style ranks and so far nothing above that. I don't really like how the jump feels tho, it's kinda stiff and awkward. Also is there a way to close the distance between you and an enemy withoutpulling them toward you? Lock on and evade forward just does a short hop up instead of a roll/dive forward. Coming off Transformers this game is a lot less instantaneously satisfying, where everything in that game looks and feels good and you're doing epic shit from the start, but I feel like this will have a lot more depth judging by the move list of stuff I can purchase.
Not really sure what I'm doing with Nero's charge up sword either. It takes a long time to fully charge with the revs, but I can occasionally get an instant charge in combat by tapping it during attacks although I have no idea what the timing is.
I'm enjoying it reasonably well so far though, and I imagine it will get a lot better once I know what I'm doing and have a bunch of moves. Unless I can't pull them off or the combo inputs get too confusing...
Also I finally understand "the time has come and so have I" meme. Holy fuck I can't believe that's an actual lyric in the game. That's amazing.
Any tips to help me not suck would be gr8
This is really more of a critique/analysis of DMC3's pacing rather than me trying to convince the world that DMC3 is the best paced action game of all time (the title is just bait). Of course this is a very subjective opinion and many people will bring up RE4 and Uncharted 2 as great examples of action games with phenomenal pacing. Sure enough those games do have an excellent sense of pacing for an action game but I want to focus my attention on just DMC3 at the moment.
Please note that this is not an analysis of the overall design of DMC3 as a video game, I am just focusing on a very small aspect of the game. There are many things that DMC3 does extremely well that are worth discussing but this is not the time nor place for that.
First of all let's get it out of the way for those who don't know what the hell I am talking about:
What is Devil May Cry 3? DMC3 is the 3rd installment in the action game series Devil May Cry. While it is the 3rd game in the series, chronologically it is the first game in the series. By most account it is an acclaimed and revered action game especially the Special Edition which fixes some of the problems the original had (though for the sake of this analysis I will be using the vanilla version's encounter layout). It can be said that the stylish action genre started with this game rather than DMC1 because of its emphasis on just that... stylish combat above all else. Certainly since the launch of this game, more and more action games have started to have a robust combo system with more emphasis on aerial combat than before. DMC3 is also known for being one of the first action games to introduce motion capture in the cutscenes to push the idea of action not only in game play but in game cinematics as well.
What is pacing? There is a lot of confusion on what pacing actually means when we are talking about pacing in a movie/game/TV series etc. especially in the action genre. When people think pacing they think something that is moving constantly when it's more similar to the word "tempo" as it is used in music. That is to say that the tempo of something changes in a very particular fashion as conducted by the director that evokes a certain emotion.
The general accepted pacing of an action sequence is one where something swells, peaks then subsides. Think of any good action move you know of like a sword swing. It starts up slow, builds up gradually with momentum and then slows down after the initial "hit" which is the recovery. In fighting game terms, these are start up (action swelling), active (peak) and recovery (action subsiding) frames of a move. In the broad sense, a game campaign follows this pattern across its major pivotal points or acts. This pattern is observed multiple times over the coarse of a game, so much so that you can actually graph out the tempo and it would look like a bunch of peaks and valleys.
However, these peaks and valleys are not equal to each other in terms of height and their location on the graph. Usually the first instance of this peak is one of the highest peaks in a game which is the opening of the game. This is why so many action games start off with a bang then slow down after the initial burst of action. It's not until much later that the level of action matches this peak again. After that peak is attained again, if the game has excellent pacing then every major peak after that will reach higher and higher until the final peak of the game which is the climax followed by a giant valley or the resolution.
Now one might come in and say "well why not have a game where the whole game is just balls to the wall action from start to finish"? To that I say... when you are exercising do you sprint at your maximum possible speed for 2 miles? Unless you are super human, you don't do that because it burns you out very fast and you run out of steam quick. A similar thing happens when you try to just bombard the player with action sequences after action sequences in an action game. They get burnt out by the action scenes and after a while the game starts to lose its appeal and even becomes repetitive. Mind you, almost every game is repetitive by nature.. what makes the repetition different among games is how the action sequences are staged and paced. There NEEDS to be down time in between the major action sequences so that players are given time to digest the previous sequence and prep themselves mentally and physically for the next one. Just like a move that looks static in animation looks weak when it's just a fast swing without a proper build up... an action sequence can feel flat when it's jumbled with a previous similarly paced action sequence.
So you are probably wonder what this mythical action graph looks like. Well here it is.
Many of the people reading this have probably seen this before somewhere (or something similar to it). That's probably a perfectly representation of a well paced action game IMO. Starts off strong, eases off then slowly keeps building with each action sequence until the final pay off which is the climax.
Now to kick start my analysis of DMC3's pacing, I will plot out the major points of DMC3's campaign on a graph and where I feel they are situated on the graph in terms of intensity. Obviously SPOILER WARNING from here out:
Excuse my crude drawings here, I am not as artistically inclined as other people! I have labelled all the major points in the game and where they roughly lie on the graph based on intensity. Of course this is all subjective and some big battles may not appear as grand to others as they are meant to be. But some very obvious patterns are developed in this campaign, very consistently in fact and then changed up slightly near the end to keep the player on edge at the home stretch (more on that later.
Prologue - Mission#1 - Mission#2
The prologue cutscene sets the tone of the story in DMC3. There is a major action scene being played out here that foreshadows what will happen later on in the game. The voice actor sets up the lore of the series immediately.
Prologues continue on with present day with the first scene. The first scene sets up the story and then BAM.. the main character is thrusted into an action sequence and the game is off to a flying start.
There are many things I could say about the reasoning behind the first level. It's a very small, exclusively combat area but it's a necessary one. It makes it clear to the player that this is in fact an action game... there's no running from the enemies and you can't progress until you have killed the enemies. You have to learn how to fight immediately while being prompted with some tutorial messages to make sure you are not completely lost in the action.
After beating mission #1 you are thrusted into yet another action only mission where the action is more intense than before. More enemies spawn with more types and it caps off with a boss fight (which isn't really a boss fight it's a sub boss).
This is the first intensity peak of the game as you are thrust into the action capping off with a pseudo boss fight. It's a very adapt or die type situation here and really makes it clear to you that you are playing an action game.
Mission#3 - Cerberus
The game slows down a bit by having you go through an actual level with escape points against the next group of enemies followed by your first actual non combat area. After that there's a mandatory combat encounter with new enemy types and then soon after that you fight off against your first true boss.
The intensity level is much higher than the first psuedo boss. Cerberus is harder, more ferocious and you need to use more of your arsenal to take it down. It's one of the first skill checks in the game.
Some would argue that the whole mission#1 to mission#3 is one whole action sequence with Cerberus being the first peak of the game. I don't really disagree with that and that is certainly another way to look at it. Nevertheless these first missions delivered the player with relentless action and now is probably the time where the game needs to provide the player with a breather.
Mission#4 and Gigapede
This is the first instance of the action slowing down in the game for a relatively long period of time. The intensity drops down dramatically here but it's actually a very good thing. From here the area expands greatly with multiple rooms to explore and it's not immediately obvious where to go. The level design of this next area is actually quite good and you really need to pay attention as to where you are going. There are a few combat zones here but nothing is at the level seen before.
After some exploring and some key acquisitions you make your way to the final boss of this mission which is an easy boss fight by most account. Straight forward pattern based boss that once you figure out the gimmick, it is a relatively simple fight. This boss is what I like to call a "confidence builder". People usually say that DMC3 has an uneven difficulty curve because it starts out so hard then gets easy then hard again... well my argument is that this is done on purpose for the sake of pacing. Having Cerberus be followed up directly by an even more difficult and intense boss fight would've resulted in many players quitting the game because they would be too burnt out or even scared to proceed forward. Having a relatively easy boss here gives the player confidence and eases them forward to the next major challenge.
It should be noted here that all these down time levels also have an extra use. Since they usually happen after you acquire a major weapon/tool because of a big fight... it gives players some time to experiment with the new tool after acquiring it. That is why once you have acquired everything in the game, it's pretty much non stop boss action from that point on.
Agni and Rudra
Break time is over... time for the next intense battle. A&R is a very difficult boss battle for new players and it's one of those bosses that many players ended up quitting on. It's an aggressive fight because it's 2 against 1. Because this was a major boss battle like against Cerberus, you are awarded with a new weapon for your troubles.
Imagine having this boss fight right after beating Cerberus... many players would've had their confidence shattered even more!
Mission # 6 leading into Mission #7 and the first Vergil encounter- End of Act 1
Time for a breather after Mission #5 and A&R. This is a more puzzle based area where you have to work through the mechanics of the area to get through. There are some combat areas but if you figure out the gimmick of the area you can go through with little combat. Best of all if you complete all the trials you are rewarded with a new weapon!
Mission#7 is another exploration mission but it does feature a couple of new enemy types that by now the player should be able to handle. Once again the player has some of their confidence restored as they make through these next two levels relatively easily. After some exploration and puzzle solving you make your to the next area...
The first Vergil encounter is staged flawlessly. Takes place at the top of the tower you had been progressing through all this time, the tone changes when you encounter him, music and aesthetic are top notch... the game had been building up to this encounter since the prologue cutscene! Even if you don't think the actual battle had the same difficulty as the previous two major boss fights... there's no doubt that in terms of narrative intensity this is the highest the game has reached since the beginning. At this point you are at the edge of your seat, waiting to see what happens next. You want to beat Vergil not just for game play progression reasons but for of story reasons as well.
This first encounter concludes the first act of the game or the first 1/3rd of the game. If you were like most people you couldn't wait to push on but wait....
Mission #8, Leviathan and Mission #9 leading into Nevan
After a ridiculously hype cutscene, you are put into a very anti hype and low action level in the belly of a beast. This is another breather level, the intensity is way down in this and even the boss is just a very non engaging, damage sponge of an opponent. It's another confidence booster. You really can't wait to get out of this level.
Next mission is back to usual level design of the game, after some exploring, puzzle solving and path opening (as well as finding a Spiral on a ledge if you looked hard enough)... you make your way to the next boss. This boss is one of the first bosses in the game who seems to have some lore background with Dante so there's some narrative reasons for this fight which ups the personal stakes involved in the fight. The fight is also not bad, it's challenging in its own right and is more of a pattern recognition boss fight with some interesting mechanics involved. You are again rewarded with a new weapon for this fight.
Mission #10, 11, 12, 13 - Beowulf, Geryon, 2nd Vergil encounter - End of Act 2
Mission #10 is your standard breather level after Nevan. As you can see this pattern seems to be well established by now and it follows to the tee on what is proper action pacing design. You do some exploration and puzzle solving in this mission to progress. Mission#11 has more complex action sequences including some environment interactions you have to be aware of which increases the challenge of the game. The mission caps off with a very high intensity boss fight in Beowulf who definitely has narrative reasons to be fighting you. Like Vergil this can be considered a rival fight so there is more on the line to fight than just for progression. Fight is challenging for a lot of people, Beowulf is aggressive and has a combination of powerful close attacks and ranged attacks. It's satisfying to beat him however you feel like you are robbed out of acquiring a weapon from beating him! Well this is one of the first curveball the game throws at you as its one of the few instances where a boss flees from you instead of being killed so you don't acquire his stuff.
It may seem strange to group all of these together but there is a reason. The is one of the small exceptions the game makes in terms of pacing. Instead of giving a breather mission after the Beowulf fight.. the player is thrust right back into the action with a very high intensity combat sequence involving a life drain mechanic. Player is forced to kill enemies to survive. This sequence finishes with another relatively challenging boss fight in Geryon which has its own unique mechanics to deal with. During all of this some major story cutscenes are played out involving some twists and betrayals... you would think that the mission after 12 would lower the pace but nah...
See this is where DMC3 takes the player out of their comfort zone. If you were paying attention up to this point, you might have gotten very familiar with the action beats of the game. Level with hard boss fight, level with no boss fight or a very easy boss fight right afterwards to take the pressure off etc. Well now you had to deal with 3 back to back high octane missions with 3 challenging bosses at the end of each along with quite a few story cutscenes that build up the climax at the end of act 2 very nicely.
So the 2nd Vergil encounter... well that was even MORE extraordinary than the first encounter (both in terms of mechanics and narrative)! The stakes were higher this time around and the twist that ended this fight was even more dramatic. The tone of the game changes again after this moment in the game and it concludes the 2nd act of the game, culminating with appearances from all the major characters of the game.
You get the Beowulf weapon soon after you beat Vergil 2 because it was Vergil who had actually killed Beowulf, not Dante. This was a cool touch and was a nice curveball to the standard acquisition of devil arms presented in the game thus far.
Mission # 14 + 15, Lady and Doppelganger
The end of act 2 was the biggest peak of the game since the end of act 1. At this point you should been saying "man I could really use a breather after that sequence". Well you do... only instead of getting one slow mission you get two! This pacing choice was meant to make up for the fact that you ended up tackling 3 action packed missions back to back but this section of the game is arguably among the weakest sections of DMC3 (alongside Mission#8 which interestingly enough also followed an end of act sequence). The backtracking in these two missions also didn't help matters at all plus the tower rotation level design mechanic really hampered the pacing. This section is easily the biggest fall in action pacing for the entire game. You could make the argument that this was deliberate as this section is really the only slow period between act 2 and act 3 as we will soon see, however, if I am being perfectly honest I will say that they could've made these levels more high intensity.
Mission#16 is the point where the action starts to climax all the way until the end of the game but it's done so in a deliberate manner. That is because by the end of Mission#17 you have acquired all the weapons/tools in the game so there is no reason to put in cooldown levels to experiment your new found tools on. You go up against Lady, then you go up against Doppelganger in the next mission (both of which provide you with new tools to play around with), back to back unique boss fights each with their own gimmick and each providing you with a new tool with. After this you descend (or technically ascent) into hell and from here on out.... the action does not let up.
Mission#18, Chess Board, Boss Gauntlet, Arkham, Final Vergil encounter - The Final Stretch
This is the home stretch of the game. Where most games have you do a victory lap near the end with an on the rails sections... DMC3 has more surprises in store for you. Upon entering hell you are made to face off against the Chess Board, a very unique combat scenario involving a large amount of enemy types. You have to adapt quickly to this new scenario, this could be considered a boss fight by itself.
After you beat this encounter... you are put into a boss gauntlet! But because you have way more tools and moves at your arsenal... the same fights play out much differently. You also have a choice in the matter in terms of who you want to face but the choice is dictated by the relatively difficulty of the boss fights. You can choose to fight 3 of the hardest boss fights in the game (Cerberus, A&R and Beowulf) or you can fight many bosses that are much easier. Either way, this is a challenge you have to overcome to progress and boss gauntlets are rarely easy.
With no breathers in sight... you then move on to the penultimate boss fight in the game which is against Arkham. This boss fight has big narrative implication but it's really nothing more than a gimmick boss fight. It was clearly never meant to be the climactic showdown and if there's any form of victory lap in the game then it would be this boss fight due to the mechanics involved.
And finally... just like all the previous end of act sequences, the final act delivers on the build up. You have to fight Vergil one last time to finish the game once and for all. The emotional stakes are at their peak here, the build up to this moment has been magnanimous. The music that plays during this boss fight is a grand version of the theme that plays throughout the game... you feel in your heart that is really the final encounter of the game and you have to use everything you have learned up to this point to overcome it. And this fight does not disappoint at all... it is everything a final boss fight should be. Very challenging yet at the same time very fair, many would say that this is in fact the hardest boss fight of the game. You couldn't give the game a better climactic finish than this (could've picked a better spot to fight in though... LOL!).
The End... or is it?
The final boss fight is over, your hands are shaking, you feel satisfied with what has transpired. You have lost count of how many hours you have spent on the game, how many times you died, how many enemies you killed. Vergil's final word as you land the final blow on him echo in your mind long after the moment has passed. You are left with a bittersweet sensation... the game was great but was that actually the last time you get to fight off against Vergil, an adversary you had worked so hard to defeat all this time?
You are ready to put the controller down after you see Dante shed a tear for his brother... but then you see Dante saying "I am absolutely crazy about it!" and realize.... it's not over 'till its over! During the credits there is an actual combat sequence you can play which has you fighting a hundred demons finishing off with a Hell Vanguard fight! Absolutely brilliant stuff... as if the game needed anymore convincing that it is in fact an action game, you are given a chance to fight during the credits. Safe to say these are some of the most action packed credits you have witnessed. If you beat the whole encounter in the allotted time you are treated to a secret cutscene involving Vergil! The game ends for real after that and everything comes back full circle, wrapping it all in a nice bow.
Even the credits fit right into what the game is about. From the first input you do in the game to the last one... it's all about stylish action. You feel like you have played an action epic, even forgetting that the game had a lot of down times in the middle that built up to the next major action sequence which you remember fondly. You remember the major end of act moments as that was the main point of the game both mechanically and thematically. And it's all thanks to how the game was framed and paced along with how well the game actually played.
Son Of Sparda
Member
While we are still somewhat (well, barely) on the subject I would love to add that the budget for DMC4SE wasn't as little as one might think. Sure the devs didn't had much of a budget and had to scrap to even get Lady and Trish in the game but the publishing side clearly had at least an "okay" budget since they managed to add a completely new Japanese cast to the game. That alone couldn't have been cheap. Now add all the marketing stuff like drinks and posters and plays to the mix and you see that Capcom actually spent some good money on this.
It really sucks that devs didn't get more resources but still knowing that the game had an okay budget overall gives me some comfort in regards to the future of the series.
And since we are naming new difficulties, Capcom can you add "Dante Will Die" to the mix as well? That name has been stuck in my head for years now and I have no idea where I got it from. So Capcom, I'll appreciate it if you finally made it official, pretty please? Thanks.
It really sucks that devs didn't get more resources but still knowing that the game had an okay budget overall gives me some comfort in regards to the future of the series.
And since we are naming new difficulties, Capcom can you add "Dante Will Die" to the mix as well? That name has been stuck in my head for years now and I have no idea where I got it from. So Capcom, I'll appreciate it if you finally made it official, pretty please? Thanks.
The argument for the new Japanese cast is that they are most likely going to be re-using the cast again for DMC5.
The same reason why they brought in Dan Southworth just to mo-cap a couple of cutscene for DMC4SE. If DMC5 is in the works then they might use Dan Southworth again. It's a kill two bird with one stone kind of thing. Hell they even went through the effort of changing Lady's VA for DMC4SE!
All of these things were done to ease into the develoment of DMC5. If there's no DMC5 then yeah all of these things seem like a huge waste of time and budget... which could've been spent on other stuff to improve DMC4SE.
The same reason why they brought in Dan Southworth just to mo-cap a couple of cutscene for DMC4SE. If DMC5 is in the works then they might use Dan Southworth again. It's a kill two bird with one stone kind of thing. Hell they even went through the effort of changing Lady's VA for DMC4SE!
All of these things were done to ease into the develoment of DMC5. If there's no DMC5 then yeah all of these things seem like a huge waste of time and budget... which could've been spent on other stuff to improve DMC4SE.
That's a really exhaustive writeup. I'll have to come back to it when I'm not on mobile; so I can do more than just skim.
Dante is Already Dead?
If they retain the same cast size; I actually wouldn't mind them having individual DMD names for each character which preserve the alliteration - it'd be hard to make them not sound like the bad kind of cheesy, though.
Dante is Already Dead?
If they retain the same cast size; I actually wouldn't mind them having individual DMD names for each character which preserve the alliteration - it'd be hard to make them not sound like the bad kind of cheesy, though.
The game definitely opens up once you've unlocked additional moves. The game is trying to get you to use your limited moves wisely now, and get used to them as it spoonfeeds you additional options. You definitely want to invest in Streak, Split, and several ground combos as early as possible.
So, the DMC jump. It's meant to feel awkward and here's why. The beginning frames of your jump have invincibility frames, so it's actually a universal dodge mechanic. You don't travel very far horizontally, so you actually need to time your jumps in order to use it as an effective dodge. For traversal, you have Snatch, Streak, Calibur, and Double Jump. Also, remember that you run forward if you're not locking on. You don't have to be locked on constantly during combat. You need to know when to lock on.
The Exceed charge, at this stage, is really just for pre-battle charging. Once you get EX-Act and MAX-Act, the feature opens up entirely. Once you've unlocked that ability, every single swing of the sword can be just framed to gain one or full charge based upon your timing of the trigger pull. If your timing is good enough, you can have constant Exceed charge at your disposal.
This looks amazing. I'm going to dig in. If Seyavesh doesn't make the thread for you, then I will.
You want to buy Streak as one of your main moves asap. If you haven't done so already do it now... you can actually refund moves you have bought for new ones at full price. It's a move that moves you forward while hitting something, it's an essential DMC move to get like Stinger or Rapid Slash. You also want to get the double jump as early as possible even though it's on the expensive side. The Roulette Spin is also nice to get early.
The EX Act system you should put some points into as well as if you time L2 on move recovery you can get a charged and it powers up your next move. You want to use charge on special moves like Streak, Split (in the air R1+Forward+/\) and High Roller (R1+Back+/\).
The Charged Buster shots are also worth getting (past lvl2, lvl1 isn't that great), you can charge the gun while doing anything else. You may want to make your gun button to one of the shoulder buttons if you plan to do this often.
Also you can taunt to raise your style bar up by one by pressing Touchpad. Once you start getting those SSS ranks in combat then you will really start to feel yourself.
The EX Act system you should put some points into as well as if you time L2 on move recovery you can get a charged and it powers up your next move. You want to use charge on special moves like Streak, Split (in the air R1+Forward+/\) and High Roller (R1+Back+/\).
The Charged Buster shots are also worth getting (past lvl2, lvl1 isn't that great), you can charge the gun while doing anything else. You may want to make your gun button to one of the shoulder buttons if you plan to do this often.
Also you can taunt to raise your style bar up by one by pressing Touchpad. Once you start getting those SSS ranks in combat then you will really start to feel yourself.
go ahead, i am currently knee deep in some strange game
Really great stuff. I'm glad you break this down so thoroughly, and I think the chart really helps. I like how you elaborate on what defines pacing, especially in the context of a game experience. It probably goes without saying, but different media require different types of pacing and escalation and this is often undervalued in games today.
For example, weapon and skill acquisition is a part of pacing in a game. And an important one you touch upon, but that itself could be an entire thread.
Another sort of interesting thing to note is how Dante's position within the tower echoes the story's pacing itself. He is hitting peaks and valleys, climbing to the top, and getting knocked down. At Mission 15, Dante literally hits the ground floor again, only to climb back up past the top of the tower, transcending beyond the original tip to the climax.
I'll go ahead and make the thread. Would you rather I quote the whole thing or just post and credit? I think quoting it might be better so that people can click on it and come back to this thread for more discussion in general.
Whatever is preferable.
And yeah the game play considerations of action pacing were something I thought about late into it. The whole point of the "breather" levels was not only to ease the pacing but also give players time and room to experiment with their new found tools. When I made that pattern realization it was a eureka moment because it lined up perfectly with almost all of the major set pieces of the game minus the sequence of Mission#11-Mission#13, only then I made the other realization that you actually don't even get a new weapon after beating Beowulf to play around with.
And yeah the game play considerations of action pacing were something I thought about late into it. The whole point of the "breather" levels was not only to ease the pacing but also give players time and room to experiment with their new found tools. When I made that pattern realization it was a eureka moment because it lined up perfectly with almost all of the major set pieces of the game minus the sequence of Mission#11-Mission#13, only then I made the other realization that you actually don't even get a new weapon after beating Beowulf to play around with.
Thread is up:
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1165122
People should feel free to transpose any thoughts over to the new thread.
Fancy Clown
Member
Thanks for the tips, friends
I'd also check out the Chaser youtube tutorials in the OP if you get a chance. They're not long and serve as a great primer. It might help you with your max act timing as well.
Son Of Sparda
Member
Yes, those ChaserTech tutorials are very well done. Actually, I'm sure it's been asked before but is there any good videos for new characters, especially Vergil? That, and what are some good places to practice combos? Bloody Palace takes ages to get to it's good levels
Yes, those ChaserTech tutorials are very well done. Actually, I'm sure it's been asked before but is there any good videos for new characters, especially Vergil? That, and what are some good places to practice combos? Bloody Palace takes ages to get to it's good levels
Besides Chaser's Vergil tutorial, I haven't seen anything yet:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UF16RaBq9V4
It certainly doesn't cover everything, as Vergil is still evolving, but it's nice.
As for practice areas, which enemies did you want in particular? Mission 12 is always an easy choice for the speed at which you can reach the first Mega Scarecrows. I also like Mission 4's locked room with the Gyroblade. Once you clear the room, you can just kill yourself with the next group of enemies and you'll load at the checkpoint before the locked room again. It has a nice combination of Scarecrows and MegaScarecrows.
Son Of Sparda
Member
Chaser has a video for Vergil? Oh shit, that's awesome. Thanks, I'll definitely check it out.
Thanks for suggestions as well GE. For now I wanna practice on Mega Scarecrows since they seem to be the easiest enemy to combo on. In what difficulty setting would you recommend me to start practicing combos? Should I just use DMD like I've been doing thus far or would it be better to start with SoS and then work my way up from there?
I'd say whatever you're comfortable with. Vergil is so powerful in the game that you probably won't have any issue jumping straight into DMD, the only issue potentially being the juggle and armor properties with the enemies DT. With SoS, you'll be able to take your time and plan stuff out. Anything below SoS is just too weak to handle Vergil.
direct_quote
Member
Vergil needs GMD more than anyone.
Son Of Sparda
Member
Great, then I guess I'll revert to SoS for now so I would have more time to plan my combos. Thanks again.
ShinMaruku
Member
Nevan made me laugh.
I made some bold predictions about DmC before it was being rumored on IGN. It's surprising how much stuff I got right:
http://www.ign.com/boards/threads/devil-may-cry-5-to-be-more-westernised.195444043/#post-195445629
*Grittier, more mature approach, less over the top action.
*Changed up level design.
*Change in character and enemy design (damn that shit was on point son!)
*Game play changed, probably no lock on, probably QTEs... more casual friendly
*Less framerate, 30FPS called. I also said somewhere else that it would probably run on UE3.
God damn I was fucking nostradamus in here. Ok time to make some bold predictions for DMC5. Please note that I DO NOT have any inside information, this is just purely guess work based on reading between the lines of developer interviews, patterns seen in DMC4SE and DmC DE plus the overall trend of the gaming market.
*It will run on UE4. I think Capcom has all but abandoned Phanta Rhei and if SFV isn't on that engine then more than likely DMC5 isn't on that either. This pretty much means that unless DMC5 started on PR, it will be easier to make because the engine isn't completely new, built from scratch. And it will be 60FPS.
*Barring a Sony money hat it will be on 3 platforms: Xbone, PS4 and PC. A money hat would mean it will be on PS4 and PC. I don't see this not coming on PC.
*Dante will be back and will probably be the main character. Nero will be in it too. Both will have slightly redesigned looks.
*Yuji Shimomura will return to direct the cutscenes.
*There will probably be some co-op functionality but maybe not for the whole campaign.
*Evasion and style system will be changed/reworked. Lock on will return though.
*It will have Japanese voice actors too this time around.
*Vergil will be back in some capacity. Will be more than just a playable character, will have story implications. Dan Southworth will return for Vergil and Rueben for Dante. There will be a father/son moment.
*Vergil's portions might be saved for DLC.
*Lady and Trish will be in the game as well but with minor roles like in DMC4.
*There will be more RPG elements in the game.
*There will be some new modes where you have acquire stuff and level up something (character, shop etc). Basically it will be something that Capcom puts in the game which justifies the use of microtransactions in DMC. So yes I full expect microtransactions to be in DMC5 (much more than in DMC4SE) and there will be something like FOB where you need to acquire a lot of items long term to maintain (so require some grinding).
*There will be no significant backtracking in the missions but there might be reuse of assets in the side quests/areas of the new modes where you have to play the same areas over and over again to get what you need.
*Costumes will need to be purchased with real money, the only unlockables will be palette swaps and LDK costumes.
*There will be some new threat/evil to deal with in the story aside from Vergil.
*A few new modes will be put in the game but not as many as the fans would've liked.
*Strong possibility that puzzles are replaced by another element in the game like platforming or just more exploration or even side quests.
*Most options will be available to the characters without going into a menu to switch load outs like in DMC4 as opposed to DMC3.
*There will be no Devils Never Cry in DMC5.
*2017 release, can even be an early 2017 release.
*There will be stuff that is taken from Souls and Platinum games that have been made since the release of DMC4.
*The art of the game will be solid but technically it's not going to look much better than DMC4. Level design would be better though so the areas might be bigger and you might have to go longer without seeing the area change animation.
http://www.ign.com/boards/threads/devil-may-cry-5-to-be-more-westernised.195444043/#post-195445629
*Grittier, more mature approach, less over the top action.
*Changed up level design.
*Change in character and enemy design (damn that shit was on point son!)
*Game play changed, probably no lock on, probably QTEs... more casual friendly
*Less framerate, 30FPS called. I also said somewhere else that it would probably run on UE3.
God damn I was fucking nostradamus in here. Ok time to make some bold predictions for DMC5. Please note that I DO NOT have any inside information, this is just purely guess work based on reading between the lines of developer interviews, patterns seen in DMC4SE and DmC DE plus the overall trend of the gaming market.
*It will run on UE4. I think Capcom has all but abandoned Phanta Rhei and if SFV isn't on that engine then more than likely DMC5 isn't on that either. This pretty much means that unless DMC5 started on PR, it will be easier to make because the engine isn't completely new, built from scratch. And it will be 60FPS.
*Barring a Sony money hat it will be on 3 platforms: Xbone, PS4 and PC. A money hat would mean it will be on PS4 and PC. I don't see this not coming on PC.
*Dante will be back and will probably be the main character. Nero will be in it too. Both will have slightly redesigned looks.
*Yuji Shimomura will return to direct the cutscenes.
*There will probably be some co-op functionality but maybe not for the whole campaign.
*Evasion and style system will be changed/reworked. Lock on will return though.
*It will have Japanese voice actors too this time around.
*Vergil will be back in some capacity. Will be more than just a playable character, will have story implications. Dan Southworth will return for Vergil and Rueben for Dante. There will be a father/son moment.
*Vergil's portions might be saved for DLC.
*Lady and Trish will be in the game as well but with minor roles like in DMC4.
*There will be more RPG elements in the game.
*There will be some new modes where you have acquire stuff and level up something (character, shop etc). Basically it will be something that Capcom puts in the game which justifies the use of microtransactions in DMC. So yes I full expect microtransactions to be in DMC5 (much more than in DMC4SE) and there will be something like FOB where you need to acquire a lot of items long term to maintain (so require some grinding).
*There will be no significant backtracking in the missions but there might be reuse of assets in the side quests/areas of the new modes where you have to play the same areas over and over again to get what you need.
*Costumes will need to be purchased with real money, the only unlockables will be palette swaps and LDK costumes.
*There will be some new threat/evil to deal with in the story aside from Vergil.
*A few new modes will be put in the game but not as many as the fans would've liked.
*Strong possibility that puzzles are replaced by another element in the game like platforming or just more exploration or even side quests.
*Most options will be available to the characters without going into a menu to switch load outs like in DMC4 as opposed to DMC3.
*There will be no Devils Never Cry in DMC5.
*2017 release, can even be an early 2017 release.
*There will be stuff that is taken from Souls and Platinum games that have been made since the release of DMC4.
*The art of the game will be solid but technically it's not going to look much better than DMC4. Level design would be better though so the areas might be bigger and you might have to go longer without seeing the area change animation.
direct_quote
Member
DMC5 needs to have are more expanded Hell section imo. And it'd be cool if Dante and Co faced some more bad ass demons like Dante did when he faced his Father's Aprrentice in the anime (which was a huge waste).
I'm also assuming that in DMC5 will deal with the Sparda mythos in that you will face more threats that Sparda faced ages ago. So a new threat might be some former Sparda ally or enemy that has come back to power.
Also I could see if Dante and Nero are fighting together in a section, you can pick between Dante or Nero for a set of levels. So levels might be homogenized for all playable characters, and not separated out anymore unless it's say a dlc chapter (like say for Vergil which I 99% predict will be preorder dlc like with DmC, and will be Vergil getting out of Hell).
I'm also assuming that in DMC5 will deal with the Sparda mythos in that you will face more threats that Sparda faced ages ago. So a new threat might be some former Sparda ally or enemy that has come back to power.
Also I could see if Dante and Nero are fighting together in a section, you can pick between Dante or Nero for a set of levels. So levels might be homogenized for all playable characters, and not separated out anymore unless it's say a dlc chapter (like say for Vergil which I 99% predict will be preorder dlc like with DmC, and will be Vergil getting out of Hell).
I wouldn't be surprised if there was a sort of tribute song with elements of devils never cry, like Baroque and Beats with ultraviolet, but they'll want to establish the games independent musical identity.
No offense, Dahbomb, but a lot of that is super general and kind of obvious. They're practical but I wouldn't call them bold predictions.
The only things I'd potentially disagree with is the very real possibility of timed exclusivity with Sonypc, and the game will most certainly be a looker well beyond DMC4.
The only way it wouldn't look substantially better than DMC4 is if they stuck with a budget MT Framework release.
I think the point about having a new mode that is to feed the microtransaction system is a pretty bold prediction. DMC has never done something like this before, most action games still don't do it.
Also revisions to the style/evasion system is a bold prediction. Capcom probably wants to play it safe with the game and changes to the core stuff like that is always bound to make some group of people angry.
Not sure what else bold prediction I can make.
Also revisions to the style/evasion system is a bold prediction. Capcom probably wants to play it safe with the game and changes to the core stuff like that is always bound to make some group of people angry.
Not sure what else bold prediction I can make.
direct_quote
Member
I wonder if the PR engine bungle possibly delayed DMC5's inception?
I think DMC5 will look ok, but SFV can look nicer in UE4 because it's a fighting game and you can always take more or less from the environment to match 60 fps. It seems for an action game that targets 60 fps it's always harder to meet this peak while maintaining appealing visual fidelity. It's partly why I think DMC4 has a fixed camera (and why GOW3 does too). Games that do maintain a level of visual fidelity are usually 30 fps (Bloodborne, etc), so I don't think DMC5 will be a looker either...
I think DMC5 will look ok, but SFV can look nicer in UE4 because it's a fighting game and you can always take more or less from the environment to match 60 fps. It seems for an action game that targets 60 fps it's always harder to meet this peak while maintaining appealing visual fidelity. It's partly why I think DMC4 has a fixed camera (and why GOW3 does too). Games that do maintain a level of visual fidelity are usually 30 fps (Bloodborne, etc), so I don't think DMC5 will be a looker either...
Definitely not suggesting it's a poor list, just safe. And frankly, I think that makes more sense. DMC5 will probably be on the safer side of things. DmC was the big risk, and they're still feeling the effects of said risk. DMC5 will probably work to meet fan expectations.
the reason why I don't feel like the revamped dodge is quite a stretch is because they've clearly been trying to steer away from having to use specific styles for evasion purposes, like with Nero's various i-frame moves and DmC.
The FOB is a bigger out there prediction for sure. While I don't know if I think it'll feature the same format, I wouldn't be surprised at all to find microtransaction tied to online play, tracking, or social events.
FFVII also looks pretty phenomenal on UE4 so far, and it is aiming to feature pretty large environments. At the very least, DMC5 will probably look better than DmC on a technical level.
It might not even be FOB, could just be character equipment or other stuff. Though I don't think Capcom would do that because that could veer into pay to win territory if the equipment had actual stats and stuff.
I just have a feeling that they will add something unnecessary for the sake of greed.
I just have a feeling that they will add something unnecessary for the sake of greed.
That was probably going to be my prediction too and especially if they lead into DMC2 with it.
Trish wasn't present in the story of DMC2 even though she was a playable character. Plus Dante was quieter... might explain somethings.
I'm a big fan of this theory. I like Trish and all, but I'm a bigger proponent of further motivations for change to Dante by using tragedy as a vehicle.
i actually hate the idea bc women chars getting fridged is really lazy and stale to me but with how little itsuno seems to really care about her vs lady alongside the need they probably feel to advance the story it seems likely that kinda thing is gonna happen
that or she won't actually die because kamiya will bring a biker gang with him to chase itsuno if she does
that or she won't actually die because kamiya will bring a biker gang with him to chase itsuno if she does
RampantCereal
Neo Member
This more of a hope than a prediction but I would just give doppelganger to nero and quicksilver to vergil so I can have a stand and DIO knife throwing in my Devil May Cry.
I can see where you're coming from. I just think she's important enough where it would make a substantial impact, unlike, say, the death of Credo.
If Dante needs motivation they can just say the new antagonist, whoever it is, killed Sparda. And make the villain responsible for Vergil's return. Like seyavesh I dislike killing female characters to motivate male ones. It reeks of hack writing in 2016.
As for the Panta Rhei situation, it should be noted that SF4 used Dimps' proprietary engine instead of MT Framework, so it's understandable that SF5 wouldn't use Panta Rhei. Umbrella Corps being on Unity 5 is a bit more damning, but it could be Panta Rhei doesn't have an equivalent of MT Framework Mobile ready. The real kicker for whether or not Panta Rhei is "dead" or at least not reliable enough to be used is if RE7 or RE2 remake use UE4.
UE4 is a really good engine, and considering how good some other Japanese games on UE4 looks, I think DMC5 will look fine. The key to DMC5s visuals will be art direction. From Software's engine isn't particularly amazing but something like Bloodborne manages to be jaw dropping due to a strong art direction.
There's also the whole "fighting game roster"-aspect. Fighting games, especially current ones, will avoid killing off characters because a lot of fans will lose their favorite. Capcom would never kill off Charlie today. Though Charlie's coming back, so it's better to say Harada would never have Jun killed off or SNK would never kill off Shermie, Yashiro, Chris, Rugal, Geese or Krauser today. Mortal Kombat is an exception because characters in that world can come back any time at this point.
While Trish is probably the most disposable of the main cast, there's money to be made by having her remain alive.
Of course, I'm not saying one can't or shouldn't kill off characters in order to create a compelling story. But I don't expect that from Capcom so keeping the main characters alive and finding some other way to fuel the story is probably for the best.
As for the Panta Rhei situation, it should be noted that SF4 used Dimps' proprietary engine instead of MT Framework, so it's understandable that SF5 wouldn't use Panta Rhei. Umbrella Corps being on Unity 5 is a bit more damning, but it could be Panta Rhei doesn't have an equivalent of MT Framework Mobile ready. The real kicker for whether or not Panta Rhei is "dead" or at least not reliable enough to be used is if RE7 or RE2 remake use UE4.
UE4 is a really good engine, and considering how good some other Japanese games on UE4 looks, I think DMC5 will look fine. The key to DMC5s visuals will be art direction. From Software's engine isn't particularly amazing but something like Bloodborne manages to be jaw dropping due to a strong art direction.
There's also the whole "fighting game roster"-aspect. Fighting games, especially current ones, will avoid killing off characters because a lot of fans will lose their favorite. Capcom would never kill off Charlie today. Though Charlie's coming back, so it's better to say Harada would never have Jun killed off or SNK would never kill off Shermie, Yashiro, Chris, Rugal, Geese or Krauser today. Mortal Kombat is an exception because characters in that world can come back any time at this point.
While Trish is probably the most disposable of the main cast, there's money to be made by having her remain alive.
Of course, I'm not saying one can't or shouldn't kill off characters in order to create a compelling story. But I don't expect that from Capcom so keeping the main characters alive and finding some other way to fuel the story is probably for the best.
I guess I don't really care that she's female. I don't see the tragic impact stemming from her gender, and I certainly wouldn't want her to be reduced into some sort of damsel in distress. She's just an important character overall. I totally recognize why some might see it as lazy in general to kill off a character as motivation, though.
direct_quote
Member
Well it would be equally lazy just having Trish and Lady stick around every game and do nothing. The whole Gloria subplot was pretty dumb.