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[Son Of Sparda]

I guess I could related to that but I see that more as an evolution of the genre than it dying completely. As long as is the game is mostly focused on raw combat, Has an amazing combat system that let's you style on enemies. And has good enemy and encounter designs coupled with good/enjoyable boss fights, I'll be okay with it.

If including RPG elements make the genre reach a wider audience and help the games become more "complete" content wise, then by all means, add some RPG elements to action games. As long as it doesn't make the combat too easy with stats and such, I'm good with the RPG influence.

No problem. Full disclaimer- it wasn't officially mentioned, I Guess not sexy enough as a headline, but it was noted in several following footage since the demo that the dodge pulse is back on Low and High.

Also I have a feeling I know what your other complaints about the Beta changes might be, so I can say that they have changed back range controls to its original TPS arrangements. It was mentioned in one of their live streams when talking about Beta feedback... First on the list in fact.

Ah, got the second one wrong

My other problem with Beta was that they made Ki Pulse less of a requirement and more of an optional kind of deal. I loved how different Alpha felt compared to Souls, because of Ki Pulse and how crucial it was to combat. But in Beta with them increasing the speed at which your stamina regenerated, Ki Pulse was nowhere near as important as it was in Alpha.

 

[TreIII]

This is probably the future of "action" games, marrying with RPGs to provide the content outside of the combat.

To me, at least, the writing was on the wall ages ago that this was this genre's destiny, and we're just going to see this aspect made more plain than ever, in the future. It's why I always thought that games like River City Ransom (EX), Capcom's Dungeons & Dragons games, RGG/Yakuza, and BASARA were ahead of the curve. RPG-lite mechanics are always a nice motivator/equalizer for a casual audience, because even if you're not that good of an action game player, and the stuff that you see in combo vids is far beyond your ability, the game still gives you the option to level up, get better weapons/armor, accessorize to your heart's content and have everything necessary to complete most, if not all modes of play.

It would definitely serve DMC well to just embrace this aspect more. You'd make the game more "open" to both a casual audience, as well as those who may have been weaned on Souls and want to see what fuss is about in this "other type of hard action game", without making traditional fans balk so much. And again, it's EXACTLY the kind of thing I could see Itsuno pushing for, after indulging in his D&D fantasies through Dragon's Dogma.

Make Dante, Vergil, Nero, Trish, Lady and etc. into just more understandable "starting classes" and I think you'd already be off to a good start for some players.

 

[Son Of Sparda]

And if they manage to make the series successful enough by adding RPG elements, next we might actually get some spin-offs as well. Could you imagine Devil May Dance All Night? With Vergil? That would be crazy. Day 1. Hell I'll buy a Vita just for that.

Spoiler

Not even kidding.

 

[Golnei]

I guess some form of RPG elements wouldn't be too much of a stretch from the existing health/magic inflation and Platinum's use of accessories (which Automata in particular appears to be expanding on). I just hope that the central gameplay won't be compromised - I have no issue with adding elements to make the game more accessible, but central design decisions like heavier adoption of RPG elements would likely affect the entire game to a much greater degree than individual assist or difficulty options. Dragon's Dogma isn't terribly encouraging in that regard, considering how gear-heavy it is and the way damage scaling functions - while I understand that the focus of the games is necessarily different, I'm more concerned about what it means for the shared designers' understanding of enjoyable RPG mechanics. Turning the more difficult content into an equipment treadmill with BBI's purifying mechanic and LDK enemy numbers would be a nightmare scenario.

 

[BadWolf]

And if they manage to make the series successful enough by adding RPG elements, next we might actually get some spin-offs as well. Could you imagine Devil May Dance All Night? With Vergil? That would be crazy. Day 1. Hell I'll buy a Vita just for that.

Spoiler

Not even kidding.

Stuff like that helped Persona a lot iirc in keeping it relevant during the long ass break between P4 and P5. The end result being that P5 sold extremely well.

 

[Son Of Sparda]

Stuff like that helped Persona a lot iirc in keeping it relevant during the long ass break between P4 and P5. The end result being that P5 sold extremely well.

Even though I was joking about that particular spin-off

Spoiler

(the buying part wasn't a joke obviously, cause I would be there day 1)

but yeah. Persona's popularity sky rocketed after all the spin-offs and animes. I think that's one of the few series that actually managed to gain much more popularity and public awareness between its two mainline entries.

 

[Astral Dog]

Fuck RPG elements, stay away from CAGames 😡

Edit: getting Blood orbs to level up the character is just not fun imo,should not even be there, when the whole game is designed around it, DMC is about flashy, varied , badass combat not being limited by stuff like an useless stamina bar or a stat limit.

 

[darkslayer101]

Fuck RPG elements, stay away from CAGames 😡

Edit: getting Blood orbs to level up the character is just not fun imo,should not even be there, when the whole game is designed around it, DMC is about flashy, varied , badass combat not being limited by stuff like an useless stamina bar or a stat limit.

I actually enjoy purchasing skills and leveling up character styles etc.... of course the way DMC3 did it than DMC4. Gave it more incentive to play again right after I finished it. Those kinda of rpg elements I'm cool with. Its those with adding stats for stamina, health, dex, damage etc... won't suit well for DMC.

 

[Kaztinka]

So how about that Nier Automata demo bois? (just finished it for like the 5th time already)
THEY FINALLY GOT CUSTOM CONTROLS IN A PG GAME!
The dodge mechanic is a bit weird, unlike other PG games, here you have to dodge a bit before the impact
anywho, I doubt I'll be able to finish it on very hard with all the bullet hell, but I'll try anyway

 

[direct_quote]

I actually enjoy purchasing skills and leveling up character styles etc.... of course the way DMC3 did it than DMC4. Gave it more incentive to play again right after I finished it. Those kinda of rpg elements I'm cool with. Its those with adding stats for stamina, health, dex, damage etc... won't suit well for DMC.

Yah DMC3 leveling up would be fine, with using a certain style gets you exp to open up more moves. And RPG elements like Metroid where you get static upgrades (and not levels) would be ok too....

 

[Dahbomb]

Fuck RPG elements, stay away from CAGames 😡

Edit: getting Blood orbs to level up the character is just not fun imo,should not even be there, when the whole game is designed around it, DMC is about flashy, varied , badass combat not being limited by stuff like an useless stamina bar or a stat limit.

So you are proposing that what... people should start with all the moves unlocked and they don't have to invest in learning new moves?

That's an easy way to make the game worse off especially from a learning and difficulty curve perspective


And no one god damn wants a stamina bar in a DMC game. Stamina bar does not equate to RPG mechanics.

 

[Astral Dog]

I actually enjoy purchasing skills and leveling up character styles etc.... of course the way DMC3 did it than DMC4. Gave it more incentive to play again right after I finished it. Those kinda of rpg elements I'm cool with. Its those with adding stats for stamina, health, dex, damage etc... won't suit well for DMC.

its ok i just overreacted on the mention of RPGs at the page, the way they were doing upgrades on the games is fine, there needs to be a sense of progression and discovery just keep it light stuff no actual levels or armor with stats,etc. not fun.

 

[Son Of Sparda]

I also don't want stamina bar (been very clear about that), and I would like it if they didn't add a stat base level up system like Souls series. If they are gonna add RPG elements then I want them added in the manner of items/accessories that give players certain buffs. Better damage, better defense, more DT, stuff like that. And the game has to be balanced so you can finish it on all difficulties without using these accessories. In short, I want them to use this as a way to make the game easier/more approachable for casuals.

Yah DMC3 leveling up would be fine, with using a certain style gets you exp to open up more moves. And RPG elements like Metroid where you get static upgrades (and not levels) would be ok too....

DMC3 system for leveling up style was okay. Though, they could've been a bit more clear about how you could earn EXP in each style and how much EXP you needed to get to next level. But in general I don't want that system to come back cause they can easily mess that up.

RGG Ishin used a similar system for gaining particular style points and man the way they handled that was stuff of nightmares. Don't wanna go through the same experience in a DMC game.

 

[Chaos2Frozen]

Collectibles, Red Orbs from fighting, Killing Boss, Completing Challenge rooms. All viable ways for progression. There's not much that needs to change from the existing formula- find collectibles to increase health/magic/armor etc., kill bosses for new weapons, buy/upgrade abilities from red orbs.

And only thing I would add is a form of argumentation bonus- ie. Accessories. Maybe from clearing challenges? There's tons you can do.

 

[Son Of Sparda]

If they are to add accessories and such then they have to expand a little bit on the exploration side of things. Getting a few accessories form (more difficult) challenges is good but you want casuals and people who aren't that much into the genre to be able to get some of these accessories as well. That's where exploration comes into play.

 

[Dahbomb]

Yeah what you don't want is stuff like Dexterity/Intelligence/Strength requirement for equipment and weapons.

Oh you just acquired the might Alastor... oops to use it effectively you need 20 Dex and 10 Intel.

That shit is dumb for an action game.


The RPG system that would work is stuff like attaching gems or runes to weapons to customize moveset or add properties. Enhance your weapon and moveset the way you want and it's easy to swap out the items as needed.

I have so many ideas for these but I am not going to put them put them out there. I am only going to start speculating once the game has been shown and some mechanics are revealed.

 

[Son Of Sparda]

Why not? It's not like we have anything else to talk about.

 

[darkslayer101]

The RPG system that would work is stuff like attaching gems or runes to weapons to customize moveset or add properties. Enhance your weapon and moveset the way you want and it's easy to swap out the items as needed.

Not too sure about adding gems or runes to weapons. DMC2 DT had those customizing options, which I thought was cool, but adding those to weapons may make another darksiders situation.

Just keep it simple with upgradable swords and guns, simple as that. I can only think of DT at the moment as something that is customizable and still keep the character action attitude rather than a full blown rpg.

Why not? It's not like we have anything else to talk about.

I'm really looking forward to RE7's release because by after that Capcom has nothing much to focus on... which means room for DMC hopefully

 

[Son Of Sparda]

I'm really looking forward to RE7's release because by after that Capcom has nothing much to focus on... which means room for DMC hopefully

It depends on how aggressive their DLC plans are for RE7. Last year they released SFV at February and then solely focused on that till E3. I could see them to the same with RE7. Or could you guys imagine if they announced another edition of Dead Rising 4 or another spin-off title in that series before DMC5? I wouldn't know to laugh or cry if that was to happen.

Btw, do we know when Capcom has to release their next investors report? Maybe that'll give us some more hints as to what they'll be focusing on next.

 

[GuardianE]

RPGs are inherently about increasing stats, creating builds, loot, and min-maxing. And as has been already discussed, DMC and other action games of its ilk already have elements of progression ingrained in skill/item acquisition.

Since skill and item acquisition is a huge part of DMC, I'd rather they expand on that in order to adequately cover other "RPG-isms" rather than shoehorn in any other mechanics that don't belong. Growth connected to numbers is fine for RPGs, but is terribly disappointing and uninspired to force into a game like DMC, who has already shown that you can make a character feel stronger without simply sliding that STR modifier up.

We already have "increasing stats" through upgrading moves like Stinger to Stinger 2, Min-Maxing is kind of a boring concept as a whole, so that leaves "creating builds" and "loot".

And you can fulfill both of these actually without sacrificing DMC's core strength by implementing it via item acquisition. People have already brought up the concept of "runes" and this is something that I know we've already discussed at length months ago... but if DMC were to incorporate modifiers, it has the luxury of doing so in unique ways. This is similar to how Smash 4 has their own set of customs.

Instead of increasing damage or speed, you can make modifications that actually matter to the DMC audience and changes their core experience in a substantial way rather than a superficial increase in numbers/stats. Adjustments that add different properties to moves rather than straight up enhancements like multihits, bigger hitbox, elemental properties, more I-frames, launch properties, latent hits, knockback, armor break, stun, air enabling, vacuum effect or pull... you can do really fun things with the physics, timing, and juggling.

And for the purpose of Style Tournaments, this would allow there to be both a custom category and a base category.

 

[Seyavesh]

fuck runes and bullshit rpg systems just gimme tons and tons of weps with diff. properties and same or close movesets. a big part of style is that everyone has access to the same tools- that "showing off in the arcade" spirit of design the genre is built around.

not just dmc2 style speed/dmg binary snoozefest but kb, stun, floating speeds, dt moves, shit like that

alastor rebellion sparda

ifrit beowuld gilgamesh

etc

 

[Son Of Sparda]

RPGs are inherently about increasing stats, creating builds, loot, and min-maxing. And as has been already discussed, DMC and other action games of its ilk already have elements of progression ingrained in skill/item acquisition.

Since skill and item acquisition is a huge part of DMC, I'd rather they expand on that in order to adequately cover other "RPG-isms" rather than shoehorn in any other mechanics that don't belong. Growth connected to numbers is fine for RPGs, but is terribly disappointing and uninspired to force into a game like DMC, who has already shown that you can make a character feel stronger without simply sliding that STR modifier up.

We already have "increasing stats" through upgrading moves like Stinger to Stinger 2, Min-Maxing is kind of a boring concept as a whole, so that leaves "creating builds" and "loot".

And you can fulfill both of these actually without sacrificing DMC's core strength by implementing it via item acquisition. People have already brought up the concept of "runes" and this is something that I know we've already discussed at length months ago... but if DMC were to incorporate modifiers, it has the luxury of doing so in unique ways. This is similar to how Smash 4 has their own set of customs.

Instead of increasing damage or speed, you can make modifications that actually matter to the DMC audience and changes their core experience in a substantial way rather than a superficial increase in numbers/stats. Adjustments that add different properties to moves rather than straight up enhancements like multihits, bigger hitbox, more I-frames, launch properties, latent hits, knockback, armor break, stun, air enabling, vacuum effect or pull... you can do really fun things with the physics, timing, and juggling.

And for the purpose of Style Tournaments, this would allow there to be both a custom category and a base category.

I personally agree with what you are saying GE, but if they decided to go for more RPG elements wouldn't it be in order cater to casual/non-traditional action fans? If so, then having (at least some) buff related accessories would be inescapable.

If they were to go that way I hope they can find a nice middle ground to satisfy both current DMC fans and the new audiences that they'll be after.

 

[J_Macgrady]

Nice entry! I always appreciate seeing stuff with Lady.

Thank you.

On the topic of accessories, Bayonetta does a nice job of having accessories that can spice up the combat and/or cater to non traditional action fans. It even allows you to use quicksilver/doppelganger accessories.

 

[Dahbomb]

Guardian you are ENABLING ME man!


Rune system: Attach up to 5 different runes to 5 moves. Can use multiple runes on a single move (so you can put 5 runes on only Stinger if you really want to). Can only be attached to Devil Arms (guns would have their own Mods system).

Multistrike Rune: Attacks has additional hits (think Vergil when he is motivated), style gain on attack is slightly reduced.

Phantom Rune: Attack is cloned via devil phantom on a delay (think Nero phantom cloning attack on a delay), less DT meter gain on attack.

Aigis rune: Attack has one hit of armor, life is recoverable and doesn't count against mission ranking. Attack is slightly slower.

Viper rune: Damage dealt by attack is dealt over time, stacks three time. Style and meter gain also stack. Base Attack damage is lowered.

Fire rune: Attack deals fire damage, 3rd attack immolates target. Deals damage of attack over time and to nearby enemies. Attack damage is slightly lowered.

Cold rune: Deals cold damage, 3rd hit freezes target for 0.5 seconds and if it's a boss the are chilled (slowed for 0.5 seconds). Attack is slightly slower.

Lightning rune: Deals lighting damage, 3rd hit shocks. Shocked targets give more meter from consecutive attacks for a period of time. Less style meter gain on attack.

Gust Rune: Adds knockback property to attack. Attack deals less damage, gains less style and less DT meter.

Earth Rune: Adds ground bounce property to attack. Same drawbacks as above.

Mercury Rune: Attack is faster, deals less damage, has less hit stun and gains less style meter.

Quicksilver Rune: 3rd attack on enemy inflicts them with Quicksilver, their gravity and physics are altered as if they were in Quicksilver. Less DT meter gain.

Concentration Rune: Attack deals more damage but area of effect/hitbox of the attack is greatly reduced.

Vorpal Rune: Attack has increased AOE/hitbox but deal far less damage.

Mercury Rune: Attack is special cancellable anytime into any Trickster move or dodge/jump. Greatly reduced style gain and speed.

Warpath Rune: Attack is special cancellable anytime into any Gunslinger move. Same drawbacks as previous.

Clarity Rune: Any Trickster move can be special cancelled into this attack. This attack cannot be cancelled on any frame and has increased recovery.

Trifecta Rune: This attack can chain cancel into itself 3 times. Last attack has greatly increased recovery, all attacks have lower damage and style/DT meter gain.

Crusher Rune: Attack gains ability to guard crush and armor break. Much slower start up and increased recovery, lower damage.


I have dozens of other rune ideas.

 

[Son Of Sparda]

Man, you've really thought this through. I like most (if not all) of them. The elemental ones in particular are something that I wouldn't have thought about at all, and they all sound very fun to mess around with. The ones with the bounce and cancel properties are quite interesting as well.

Now I'm wishing that you had this idea when we were gathering up that feedback list. After reading these I really wanna see Capcom do something similar in the next game.

I gotta say though, there is just one problem with your idea.

Spoiler

You have two Mercury Runes

 

[Dahbomb]

This is really extra stuff that is not necessary to making a quality DMC game. Maybe stuff like this is needed to push it to the next level of uncharted territory but that feedback thing was more along the lines of getting people to agree on the fundamentals.

These runes/gems etc. are new stuff that is really up to Capcom if they want to try to do it or not. Maybe they have some new other system instead or new mechanics that are even better, who knows.

Like I would want Capcom to deliver on the core fundamentals of DMC first, get them down pat and then maybe experiment in the future. It's important for them to get it right with the standard formula of DMC first with DMC5. With DMC6 I am far more open to experimentation, just give us that one complete DMC game experience before they do it.

 

[GuardianE]

fuck runes and bullshit rpg systems just gimme tons and tons of weps with diff. properties and same or close movesets. a big part of style is that everyone has access to the same tools- that "showing off in the arcade" spirit of design the genre is built around.

not just dmc2 style speed/dmg binary snoozefest but kb, stun, floating speeds, dt moves, shit like that

alastor rebellion sparda

ifrit beowuld gilgamesh

etc

I totally get what you're saying, and I'm inclined to agree. There's a certain quality to having a set of rules that each player needs to find their own ways around instead of utilizing modifiers that not everyone will be using at a given time.

That said, I think something similar to what was proposed is the best case scenario in a situation where they are going to absolutely add more RPG-lite elements to the game. It's better than the baseline alternative because it provides another avenue of combat depth for an extraneous feature.

Guardian you are ENABLING ME man!
***
I have dozens of other rune ideas.

Yeah, this is pretty much exactly what I meant. Creative ways to expand the existing plane, and provide additional stylish opportunities. These are the things of true substance to a DMC player, and ways that character customization can be done in such a way as to tailor the experience to fit your own style.

I personally agree with what you are saying GE, but if they decided to go for more RPG elements wouldn't it be in order cater to casual/non-traditional action fans? If so, then having (at least some) buff related accessories would be inescapable.

If they were to go that way I hope they can find a nice middle ground to satisfy both current DMC fans and the new audiences that they'll be after.

I don't think those things are mutually exclusive. Not all of the modifiers will appeal to the casual audience, but some definitely will. You can have more boring modifiers, such as increased damage or distance at the cost of speed or health, but that doesn't preclude you from adding crazy modifiers that really allow certain juggle or cancel properties that will only really be considered by advanced players.

I don't know if numbers-going-up basic character progression is what attracts that casual audience necessarily. Collecting all the modifiers/runes would serve the same purpose to a casual player.

Now I'm wishing that you had this idea when we were gathering up that feedback list. After reading these I really wanna see Capcom do something similar in the next game.

I always interpreted our feedback list to be one of general suggestions, recommendations, and baseline expectations rather than an overt and specific changes. I think this kind of falls in the latter. It's definitely worth discussing, and we have because the implications are very interesting, but I don't know if it belonged in that particular list.

 

[Chaos2Frozen]

So essentially we all agree that DMC should not be playing the numbers game, and that arguments should be for changing ability effects ie. Diablo 3.

I would also suggest ability argumentation to be per weapons basis, so as to not encourage 'builds' that rely on a single weapon eg. The "Infinite Stinger Rebellion" build.

 

[Dahbomb]

Numbers are boring, mechanics with trade offs are interesting.

Mostly because with numbers you don't have to think "this has more DPS, this has more EHP.. I will use it." With mechanics you have to think about the game at a grander scale and when you have to make trade offs then choices actually matter. Eventually these things get figured out as games are essentially just numbers but mechanics are better at hiding the numbers in the background and help you enjoy the game more rather than tinker around with spreadsheets.

 

[Seyavesh]

also with extra focus on just jamming in as many weapons as possible you get to steal shit like red queen and yamato and with dante's dumbass interpretation of the weapon/putting the design/mechanics of the weapons on dante's toolset like that one dmc4+ vid where crazymelody recreated dmc4 with a dante/nero hybrid that specifically had a "nero" style (and right-handed nero swings iirc which is real, real weird looking)

otherwise just adding in a 'just frame rune' or 'im gonna put all the speed runes on yamato and now its just a better rebellion' is kinda boring and takes away from the 'personality' of the weapons. it gives me the same kinda faux-mmo vibe that the design of borderlands weapons do, where they ultimately blend together despite many having 'unique' mechanics to one another, y'know?

it's actually one of the reasons i prefer the dmc3 design of vergil more than the 4 in terms of gameplay- dude is designed in a very specific way that evokes the character of vergil quite well and uniquely. while sharing the same mechanical playfield and having similar basic moves as dante he is radically different in almost every way that matters in a way that would be eliminated via that kinda "rune" system.

overall that's one of the biggest issues i've got with all the new characters in 4se as well- they don't really evoke that unique feel that 3dante/3vergil and 4dante/4nero do.

 

[Dahbomb]

otherwise just adding in a 'just frame rune' or 'im gonna put all the speed runes on yamato and now its just a better rebellion' is kinda boring. it gives me the same kinda faux-mmo vibe that the design of borderlands weapons do, where they ultimately blend together despite many having 'unique' mechanics to one another

That's completely missing the point of these runes. Especially the Borderlands comparison like what the hell LMAO!

Borderlands has randomized loot with unique modifiers on weapons kinda like Legendaries. You can't put those modifiers on other weapons, there is no real customization to the weapon, the weapon is what it is and it's just randomized loot. If anything the suggestion I am making is more similar to Path of Exile but with fixed weapons. In that game it's far more complex and indepth... you can add 5 gems to a move and it ends up being very different mechanically from where it started which is very interesting. Mine isn't as drastic and has significant drawbacks to prevent you from just going "well I am just going put all the DPS/speed runes in"... no because those DPS runes have drawbacks and honestly in the system I proposed there are going to be far less of those boring damage/speed increases.

dude is designed in a very specific way that evokes the character of vergil quite well and uniquely. while sharing the same mechanical playfield and having similar basic moves as dante he is radically different in almost every way that matters in a way that would be eliminated via that kinda "rune" system.

Fair critique but what if DMC5 has only one character in it at start? Or what if each character has their own unique gems?

This is why I don't like starting these things up, lots of what ifs and theoretical stuff. There are many ways to implement a certain idea and it can go either way.

Though honestly the whole "give us a ton of the same but different weapons" is not something I am a big fan of personally either. If you give that many weapons then you can't have access to them at the same time which is the same conundrum as a gem/rune system... you can't equip everything at once so everyone does not have access to the same toolset. You are making a choice in either of those scenarios. I will take it of course because more weapons are always welcome but if all DMC5 is doing is adding palette swap weapons with quirks then it's not going to go over as well.

 

[J_Macgrady]

also with extra focus on just jamming in as many weapons as possible you get to steal shit like red queen and yamato and with dante's dumbass interpretation of the weapon/putting the design/mechanics of the weapons on dante's toolset like that one dmc4+ vid where crazymelody recreated dmc4 with a dante/nero hybrid that specifically had a "nero" style (and right-handed nero swings iirc which is real, real weird looking)

otherwise just adding in a 'just frame rune' or 'im gonna put all the speed runes on yamato and now its just a better rebellion' is kinda boring and takes away from the 'personality' of the weapons. it gives me the same kinda faux-mmo vibe that the design of borderlands weapons do, where they ultimately blend together despite many having 'unique' mechanics to one another, y'know?

it's actually one of the reasons i prefer the dmc3 design of vergil more than the 4 in terms of gameplay- dude is designed in a very specific way that evokes the character of vergil quite well and uniquely. while sharing the same mechanical playfield and having similar basic moves as dante he is radically different in almost every way that matters in a way that would be eliminated via that kinda "rune" system.

overall that's one of the biggest issues i've got with all the new characters in 4se as well- they don't really evoke that unique feel that 3dante/3vergil and 4dante/4nero do.

I don't know. Vergil in 4SE feels very unique when you consider the fact he completely breaks the game like no one else can lol. Nobody can spam the O button and just stay in the air forever. What you're talking about probably has more to do with how DMC3 feels overall compared to 4.

Also, I was dying laughing when you said "dante's dumbass interpretation of the weapon" because that's exactly how his DarkSlayer style works.

Dante was like "my brother was very disciplined, obsessed with surpassing our father, and heartless and these traits showed in how he used Yamato. Idk bout all that shit, but it's a cool sword that I can use for aerial combat LET"S ROCK!!!!"

 

[Seyavesh]

That's completely missing the point of these runes. Especially the Borderlands comparison like what the hell LMAO!

Borderlands has randomized loot with unique modifiers on weapons kinda like Legendaries. You can't put those modifiers on other weapons, there is no real customization to the weapon, the weapon is what it is and it's just randomized loot. If anything the suggestion I am making is more similar to Path of Exile but with fixed weapons. In that game it's far more complex and indepth... you can add 5 gems to a move and it ends up being very different mechanically from where it started which is very interesting. Mine isn't as drastic and has significant drawbacks to prevent you from just going "well I am just going put all the DPS/speed runes in"... no because those DPS runes have drawbacks and honestly in the system I proposed there are going to be far less of those boring damage/speed increases.

nah, i get what you're saying but what i'm saying is that ultimately it turns weapons into those borderlands style deals through your method of customization- they lose out a lot of that personality and functionality specifically because of carrying across varying 'unique mechanics' without thought towards what makes each weapon truly different in terms of functionality.

as a hasty example: what is the difference between yamato and rebellion's air raves?
yamato's air rave multi-hit with the first attack's doublehit granting a different adjustment to enemy positioning within an air combo over rebellion's.
however, it's not only due to the hit number- yamato also floats dante in place much longer and much more than rebellion's air rave.
these are all traits that would be absorbed into the rune system that would ultimately make weapons ultimately start blending together in function despite being 'unique' in terms of having that customization.

oh, i guess another quickie example would be like trying to make the shotgun have e&i style rapidfire or having a run that negated knockback on it entirely, removing the drawbacks to the weapon that make it interesting in the first place.

i feel that once you go down that path you risk homogeneity- i get flashbacks immediately to transformers's irritating system when i think of having 'runes' or any rpg element on weapons instead of just having a lot of weapons that have specifically designed properties as to create a unique feeling weapon that expresses certain ideas or concepts with it's design.

that's why i'm okay with the 'gimme palette swaps of weapons with different traits/some different moves' as it's stated with the intention that you're going to have access to an extremely large amount of totally different weapons with interesting traits to begin with as to pick and choose as you please before you even delve into stuff like using alastor instead of rebellion for air raid or whatnot. so you'd have your nevans, cerberuses, lucifers alongside your spardas, ifrits and whatever the fuck the swords in dmc2 are called. with maybe alternates to weapons if there was enough time/someone was insane enough.

just having palette swaps with slight quirks is literally DMC2's weapon system

speaking of which that lets them put the bonus joke entry of putting in the DMC2 smgs as an alternate for e&i.

 

[Son Of Sparda]

@Dahbomb & GuardianE

It's true that the main reason behind that feedback sheet was to make sure that they get the fundamentals right, but at the same time I wanted to add a few crazy/not-so-ordinary ideas in there. Not that I wanted the team to actually go for them but mostly hoping that they would give them new perspectives on how they could approach things in the game. That's why I sneaked in that Yakuza Another Drama idea in there.

Trust me, even I don't want them to copy that idea (hence the disclaimer I added as the last line) and by now you all know how big of a Yakuza fan I am. Another Drama mode in RGG Ishin is amazing but copying that straight up to DMC would bore the majority of fans to death. Then why even add it in the first place? Well, what I wanted (and fingers crossed that I've managed to achieve it to some degree) was for Itsuno and team to look at that mode and basically say:

"Yeah, that'll never work in a DMC game. But it has a neat concept behind it and works really well for that title. So, is there any way for us to take the same concept and use it in a way that suits the DMC series?"

The main point was to show them something unique and interesting and have them think of ways that they could bring something equally innovative and fresh to DMC series. Now they might not even explore the idea for DMC5, and that's okay. As long as it gave them new perspective on how they could approach extra modes and ideas in the series and what they could do with them, I think it could prove to be beneficial down the line.

Adding Dahbomb's "Rune" idea to the feedback sheet could've had the same effect.

 

[Kaleinc]

it's actually one of the reasons i prefer the dmc3 design of vergil more than the 4 in terms of gameplay- dude is designed in a very specific way that evokes the character of vergil quite well and uniquely. while sharing the same mechanical playfield and having similar basic moves as dante he is radically different in almost every way that matters in a way that would be eliminated via that kinda "rune" system.

overall that's one of the biggest issues i've got with all the new characters in 4se as well- they don't really evoke that unique feel that 3dante/3vergil and 4dante/4nero do.

I like you
The problem with Vergil in 4SE is they didn't bother much about balancing. Let's allow him to cancel everything with trick, why does he need enemy step then? Why does he auto perform just frame lvl3 charge moves, why can he pin down enemies and freeze them for 10 seconds (oh yeah, so that he has a chance to connect those lvl3 charge moves lol)?
Because of this even Nero is more fun to play.

 

[Dahbomb]

I feel that whole concept of uniqueness and individuality of weapons is greatly undermined when you have both Alastor and Rebellion in the same game. Hell it was already heavily marginalized when you had Yamato/Alastor/FE/Sparda in DMC1... no one ever liked that, they didn't like it in DMC1 and they didn't like it in DMC2.

The difference would have to be far more compelling than either DMC1 and DMC2 for them to justify doing that IMO.

I am talking SFV Ken vs Ryu compared to SF2 Ken vs Ryu (World Champion SF2). Otherwise they are taking up slots that are better used for new, actually unique weapon.


This "same weapon" type is probably more suitable for DLC additions to the game rather than something that they should center the game around.

The problem with Vergil in 4SE is they didn't bother much about balancing. Let's allow him to cancel everything with trick, why does he need enemy step then? Why does he auto perform just frame lvl3 charge moves, why can he pin down enemies and freeze them for 10 seconds (oh yeah, so that he has a chance to connect those lvl3 charge moves lol)?

Vergil in DMC3SE is not balanced either, he stomps through that game too. Balance is overrated in these extra characters.

They didn't even balance Dante in DMC4.

 

[J_Macgrady]

I just want those motorcycle nunchucks they were gonna put in DMC3...

 

[Kaleinc]

Vergil in DMC3SE is not balanced either, he stomps through that game too. Balance is overrated in these extra characters.

They didn't even balance Dante in DMC4.

Not really. DMC3 is harder, Vergil may seem broken if the player is good and you can't really 'stomp through' most of DMD bosses, some can be cheesed by judgement cut but that has to be timed.

As for Dante only real impact could pass as braindead op but doesn't work on everyone (echidna, credo etc).

 

[GuardianE]

Seyavesh, it's interesting that you bring up Borderlands in this context too, because I think that they've done an especially good job with Legendary weapons (I was a Borderlands 1 junkie).

Legendaries were few and far between, but had certain Flavor Text that essentially granted them very unique properties. Any other variance in the random loot generation could create a perfect, mediocre, or crappy version of that Legendary, but the Flavor Text iself made sure that no the Legendary gun actually never felt like another.

I think weapons can retain their unique properties overall. The "rune" system wouldn't be intended to marginalize the inherent weaknesses of a weapon or standardize weapons overall, but rather to let the player get creative in exploring different options with a weapon, similar to how Dante and Vergil both use Yamato differently.

The purpose of modifiers would be to make changes to each weapon and the modifications wouldn't be "one size fits all". Adding a multihitting "rune" onto Yamato or Upper Slash would behave very differently than applying it to Rebellion or Hightime. Adding a lightning elemental rune to Alastor would be different that adding it to Beowulf. That's the only way to do it properly, and why I kind of talked about it in the context of Smash 4 customs. Each application has to be thoughtful in what it accomplishes.

And a system like this allows for a great deal of flexibility, which means you don't have to have a million customization options. It can just be a handful and still be impactful. Hell, you could even add more down the line as DLC if it gets developed post launch.

Another thing I want to stress is that the base weapons shouldn't really feel any less powerful with or without modifiers, either. This lets people customize how they want to play, and if they want to ignore that aspect of character/weapon/moveset building, then they can.

Vergil in DMC3SE is not balanced either, he stomps through that game too. Balance is overrated in these extra characters.

They didn't even balance Dante in DMC4.

The distinction is that Vergil breaks established unspoken rules in DMC4SE, whereas DMC3 Vergil was simply broken as a result of power output and summon swords.

Both have balance issues, but one is clearly more slapped together.

 

[Dahbomb]

The day that Vergil finally loses 0 frames Summoned Swords is the day I will call him balanced. Summoned Sword is already a huge rule breaking mechanic in the game. People used to complain about Vergil in 3SE too, on how much easy damage he has and how he can faceroll some encounters due to some of his tools. Of course 4SE Vergil is more broken but I can excuse that more because he came way after the original release and they were clearly trying some new things in there, balance was definitely not a concern. Vergil just like Dante seemed like they were built for different games.

I think stuff like teleport cancel is cool but in the correct amount of dosage and restricted to particular frames. But of course once Capcom releases Vergil in DMC5 and they "balance" him the SAME people will come in here complaining about that he feels over nerfed, doesn't have the same satisfaction and the older version was better because he was crazier. People complain about DMC4 Dante nerfs and that was actually more necessary with Style switch and he is STILL a powerful character.

 

[badcrumble]

I think further RPG elements need to stay away from the weapons, honestly - the game's controls should always have the same feel so players get rigorously used to how everything works as a matter of instinct.

However, I'd be very down for Bayonetta-esque accessories (which make minor modifications to how you play but don't matter nearly as much as weapon selection) or modifiers to what your DT does (I'd enjoy seeing Juggernaut, Quicksilver, Doppelgänger, super-fast regen, etc turned into things you can junction to your DT to make it more powerful in specialized ways).

Agreed with Dahbomb that 'balance' is overrated insofar as each character doesn't need to feel equally powerful, but the feeling of 'impact' matters a lot and outright brokenness (as in a lot of Vergil's stuff) is probably not a good thing.

 

[GuardianE]

Agreed with Dahbomb that 'balance' is overrated insofar as each character doesn't need to feel equally powerful, but the feeling of 'impact' matters a lot and outright brokenness (as in a lot of Vergil's stuff) is probably not a good thing.

Balance in this context isn't so much about making all characters equal. It's about having a natural sense of progression and the character's development working organically within the confines of the game's enemy and boss encounters. A character is balanced against the game world. This is why people say that DMC4 Dante isn't balanced around the game, and how DMC4 often feels like Nero's game.

 

[J_Macgrady]

The day that Vergil finally loses 0 frames Summoned Swords is the day I will call him balanced. Summoned Sword is already a huge rule breaking mechanic in the game. People used to complain about Vergil in 3SE too, on how much easy damage he has and how he can faceroll some encounters due to some of his tools. Of course 4SE Vergil is more broken but I can excuse that more because he came way after the original release and they were clearly trying some new things in there, balance was definitely not a concern. Vergil just like Dante seemed like they were built for different games.

I think stuff like teleport cancel is cool but in the correct amount of dosage and restricted to particular frames. But of course once Capcom releases Vergil in DMC5 and they "balance" him the SAME people will come in here complaining about that he feels over nerfed, doesn't have the same satisfaction and the older version was better because he was crazier. People complain about DMC4 Dante nerfs and that was actually more necessary with Style switch and he is STILL a powerful character.

Speaking of balancing, what I'm starting to think is that maybe the developers should continue to make "broken" characters, and should instead focus on making enemies that match that craziness? I'm not sure how they would pull it off, but it would make for some interesting looking fights if Vergil was fighting an enemy in air and the enemy was fighting back while in air.

I know for Dante that maybe a huge problem because of all the accessibility discussions we've had in the past, but it would be cool for the other character to have these enemies that were specific to them and their abilities. Don't even need an entire game designed around these characters. Just a few enemies to keep things interesting for everybody.

These ideas come from my love for the Bayonetta series, because even though those games don't have the huge combo potential that you see in DMC, as long as you know what dodge offset is you can make your fights look really cool.

 

[Seyavesh]

I feel that whole concept of uniqueness and individuality of weapons is greatly undermined when you have both Alastor and Rebellion in the same game. Hell it was already heavily marginalized when you had Yamato/Alastor/FE/Sparda in DMC1... no one ever liked that, they didn't like it in DMC1 and they didn't like it in DMC2.

The difference would have to be far more compelling than either DMC1 and DMC2 for them to justify doing that IMO.

I am talking SFV Ken vs Ryu compared to SF2 Ken vs Ryu (World Champion SF2). Otherwise they are taking up slots that are better used for new, actually unique weapon.

yeah, that's why i noted that stuff as like an additional alternative kind of deal: you're not really losing out on much in terms of dev time as most of the moves are similar, with different properties and some unique moves for each thing. they're not meant to substitute actual new unique weapons but be interesting variations on the weapon archetype at hand without branching too far into straight 'every weapon feels almost the same' territory. it has a similar result to the "this is optional stuff that any player can ignore if they please" while retaining the core spirit of DMC's design.

like, the differences between trish's sparda moveset, dante's rebellion moveset and vergil's force edge moveset is the type of re-use i'm thinking of for these kinda "alternate" weapons, though to a much greater degree than say trish/dante's sword moveset differences in properties.
i keep saying it but i really want to see dante's actual take on summon swords and yamato instead of a halfassed vergil imitation- it'd be so wildly different and i can only imagine his version of summon swords would literally just be swinging the swords and breaking them on the enemy which would be sick

I think weapons can retain their unique properties overall. The "rune" system wouldn't be intended to marginalize the inherent weaknesses of a weapon or standardize weapons overall, but rather to let the player get creative in exploring different options with a weapon, similar to how Dante and Vergil both use Yamato differently.

The purpose of modifiers would be to make changes to each weapon and the modifications wouldn't be "one size fits all". Adding a multihitting "rune" onto Yamato or Upper Slash would behave very differently than applying it to Rebellion or Hightime. Adding a lightning elemental rune to Alastor would be different that adding it to Beowulf. That's the only way to do it properly, and why I kind of talked about it in the context of Smash 4 customs. Each application has to be thoughtful in what it accomplishes.

i understand how you're approaching the rune modifiers but that ultimately feels like it could be achieved in a way that doesn't dilute weapon personality/moveset personality by having the same weapons do different shit between different players via the "alternate weapon" kinda design i'm talking about.

to me smash 4 customs make me think of the 'alternate' weapons more than this rune system as they've got that kind of specific design to them in terms of flexibility and weaknesses that aren't always fully shared with the original move/counterpart.
i doubt we'll see evenly on the issue though- i don't find borderland's legendaries to be particularly uniquely interesting, haha.

 

[direct_quote]

Nier seems interesting. I hate the forced overhead camera parts though, feels like DMC4 forced camera sections. Especially when you can't judge if you jumped over something or not... Itsuno please save us..

 

[Dahbomb]

For the record I do think balance is important but for the main characters, not really the side characters. I think it's fine to have experimental, even rule breaking stuff in side characters but main characters like Nero and DMC3 Dante need to be balanced within the context of the game.

And rule breaking stuff in one game breeds new mechanics in another. Gun juggle glitch in Onimusha, enemy step combos in DMC1, inertia, fly guard etc.

 

[badcrumble]

Balance in this context isn't so much about making all characters equal. It's about having a natural sense of progression and the character's development working organically within the confines of the game's enemy and boss encounters. A character is balanced against the game world. This is why people say that DMC4 Dante isn't balanced around the game, and how DMC4 often feels like Nero's game.

That makes plenty of sense.

DMC4's progression in general was pretty fucked though. Proud Souls are good for giving you a bunch of early options really fast and for very, very little else. I appreciated that DMC3 basically let you max almost exactly one Style per playthrough and that apart from Style experience, Orbs were the only real currency. It's just a better system than what DMC4 or DmC went with, IMO.

 

[badcrumble]

Also: that's a huge part of why I think it'd be good for DMC5 to make accessories, alternate costumes, shop decorations, superboss unlocks, et cetera into purchasable items. Having one unified currency for everything means that once you've maxed out your skills and (if you really want to) your healing items, you can keep buying cosmetic shit for yourself. That'd actually be a good way to keep more casual players interested in the game (and keep it off the secondhand market for longer, which has a big impact on sales in Japan) without damaging the core experience of the game at all.

I'm also very much into the idea, by the way, of consolidating anything like DMC4's Disaster gauge and Royal Guard gauge into the DT meter. I think those added a lot of needless UI complexity; as far as Disaster is concerned, DMC1 got by just fine with a gun that builds up DT extra fast and a gun that discharges it; and I miss DMC3's super-powerful DTE-Just Release and think it'd broaden the player's options to incorporate that fully into the move set (and thus give designers the freedom of conscience to make RG a little bit overpowered again). More options for powering up and discharging your DT can't help but be a good thing, I think.

 

[Imp the Dimp]

Is the game good?

Bought MGR: Revengeance a few days ago and I'm almost done with it and enjoyed it a lot. I liked Bayonetta 1 too. I only ever played a bit of DMC 1 a lifetime ago but can't recall anything.

 

[Dahbomb]

Is the game good?

Bought MGR: Revengeance a few days ago and I'm almost done with it and enjoyed it a lot. I liked Bayonetta 1 too. I only ever played a bit of DMC 1 a lifetime ago but can't recall anything.

Asking whether a non DMC2 DMC game is good in a DMC OT...

DMC4SE is a very good action game but it has definite flaws, the major one being repetition of content in the latter half of the game. The camera/controls are also a bit dated compared to what people are used to. But it's definitely worth playing because the combat engine is just sublime. There are very few games like it out there anyway.