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[Clear]

If the guy wants to make a living from programming how about he doesn't mooch off Bethesda's work which is pretty much what he is doing here.

Separate issue.

The point I'm arguing is the idea of entitlement to long-term support based on a one-time payment effectively places in the author in the position where either they must relinquish control of their work, or face the expectation to maintain it at no additional cost for as long as the buyer's desire.

Personally, I wouldn't be especially happy with either option, because I believe in doing fair work for fair pair. Not be tied down for an indeterminate time to serve people who's entire contribution is often less than an hours pay at minimum wage. That strikes me as unfair and unreasonable.

Don't like it, don't buy it. Maybe you'll get lucky and someone else might offer it gratis, but maybe not.

Personally I value my time and labour, I think that's a fundamental human right.

I also find it deeply ironic that in times where working pay and labour relations are hot issues on the internet, so many gamers seem so antagonistic to the people who make the shit they want ensuring they get properly compensated.

 

[KyoZz]

Your "other ways" describe making it optional, again you don't get to decide how or if someone is compensated for their work, that's their choice.

What? Making it optional? Sorry but I don't get what you mean (really, I'm not native English so maybe I'm missing something).

Anyway he can make good money with Nexus Mod, which is the biggest modding platform on PC. How is this bad? Donation work very well too. There is absolutely no need for this Patreon.

That's his problem and not relevant.

So you are ok to paid for illegal content? Made from stolen code?

 

[Reizo Ryuu]

What? Making it optional? Sorry but I don't get what you mean

Donations are an optional form of giving money to something.

So you are ok to paid for illegal content? Made from stolen code?

I never said such a thing, just that it's not relevant.

 

[Agent_4Seven]

Mods...

with DRM....

Spoiler

 

[Red5]

If the guy wants to make a living from programming how about he doesn't mooch off Bethesda's work which is pretty much what he is doing here.

Would you say that to car mechanics who make a living modding cars? Are they smooching off BMW and Mazda?

 

[Drizzlehell]

I was a fan of his work but I won't support him moving forward with this. He basically wants a subscription service for his mod to maintain it function.

Same thing has been going on with VR mods for a while now. There are at least a couple of groups who only release their stuff via Patreon and you need to stay subscribed to them if you want to benefit from regular updates. But at least once you get the files, you can just cancel the sub and those files are yours forever, even though without updates.

 

[KyoZz]

Donations are an optional form of giving money to something.

And they are just fine and a perfectly viable way of earning money and make a name in the modding community. Also, what about Nexus Mod? This is not a donation and can unsure you a good amount of money.
But now I can't wait to see al the crybabies asking for a refund when his Patreon is closed.

I never said such a thing, just that it's not relevant.

So... you are against this? Take position, you are defending him so I would like to know your opinion on this. If you are ok with this, you are ok to paid for mods that use illegal and stolen content.

 

[CrustyBritches]

AMD didn't bother having FSR3 ready for Starfield, and Bethesda didn't bother implementing DLSS 2 or 3, so this guy is adding the DLSS 3 support at launch and DLSS 2 later on.

You don't have to pay to play with FG. You can just run optimized settings and turn FSR 2 on for better frame rate, or buy a better CPU/GPU. I'll probably pay for access to DLSS if it includes 3 and 2 later on for the same price.

Does it set a bad precedent? Maybe...probably. Would I rather it be free? Yes. However, I don't think it's directly comparable to a texture or character mod. This is something that affects the performance and visual quality of the whole gameplay experience.

 

[SlimySnake]

What a little shit. Hopefully a publisher sues him for all he’s got.

 

[Reizo Ryuu]

And they are just fine and a perfectly viable way of earning money and make a name in the modding community

This means you are now deciding how and if somehow should get compensated, again you don't get to make that decision, if they choose to forgo compensation, or are ok with donations then it's up to them, never you.

So... you are against this? Take position, you are defending him so I would like to know your opinion on this.

It's not relevant to the discussion of wanting to be compensated for your work; I'm also not defending anyone, I've stated that thinking because someone did something for free before, it should just stay free forever, is a stupid way of thinking.

 

[StereoVsn]

Isn't current situation with his mods and Jedi Survivor that you have to be subbed to update the mod for every patch?

It's going to b the same for Starfield. That shit is going to be patched for years so throw in $5/month mod subscription because fucking MS and Bethesda don't have enough money at hand to go without AMD sponsorship.

Nah, I think I am good. Will wait a few months and see how things go before buying Starfield. Otherwise would have gotten soon after release once technical reviews dropped.

 

[hyperbertha]

This is like defending loot boxes because they're lucrative. Kind of missing the point of the push back.

Lootboxes are predatory.

 

[StereoVsn]

No, it's just some greedy bastard who wants to make a quick buck, doesn't care it's going to set a bad precedent (that others will try to follow), and could disrupt the modding community.

At the end of the day though, the devs/publisher are to blame (especially with high profile games like those mentioned in the OP, where theres no good reason why it doesn't have DLSS support/etc.).

Yep, EA and MS do not have a fucking excuse for not properly supporting their games. These are not small indies.

 

[CharmingCharlie]

Separate issue.

The point I'm arguing is the idea of entitlement to long-term support based on a one-time payment effectively places in the author in the position where either they must relinquish control of their work, or face the expectation to maintain it at no additional cost for as long as the buyer's desire.

Personally, I wouldn't be especially happy with either option, because I believe in doing fair work for fair pair. Not be tied down for an indeterminate time to serve people who's entire contribution is often less than an hours pay at minimum wage. That strikes me as unfair and unreasonable.

Don't like it, don't buy it. Maybe you'll get lucky and someone else might offer it gratis, but maybe not.

Personally I value my time and labour, I think that's a fundamental human right.

I also find it deeply ironic that in times where working pay and labour relations are hot issues on the internet, so many gamers seem so antagonistic to the people who make the shit they want ensuring they get properly compensated.

This mod costs £4.50 a month, in 12 months time people will have spent almost as much as the game starfield on one singular mod that only adds one thing to the game. The minute you stop subscribing your mod ceases to work so you have pissed away money and got nothing to show for it. It is a huge rip off what he is doing. If you believe in a fair days work requires a fair days pay then you shouldn't be supporting this rip off merchant. He isn't after "fair compensation" for his work he is ripping people off big time.

There is no point in me going "blah blah I am not gonna buy it" because I never mod games, way too much bullshit to wade through and incompatibilities. So I was never gonna bother with this con man anyway. However it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see he is shitting all over the fellow modding communtiy full of people that love the game and love the community and want to contribute to it and make the experience better for all.

As for gamers being so antagonistic about pay and labour relations ....... hm perhaps because gamers are getting tired of being shafted up the arse just so they can enjoy their hobby. The gaming companies microtransaction the hell out of us and our one sanctuary which is modding done by people that care about the hobby is being infested with conjobs like this guy further wanting to shaft gamers money wise. Hm can't see why gamers would have a problem with that.

 

[KyoZz]

This means you are now deciding how and if somehow should get compensated, again you don't get to make that decision, if they choose to forgo compensation, or are ok with donations then it's up to them, never you.

Of course it's up to them, nothing new here. And it's up to me to say if I think it's a shitty move or not. You are free to disagree, doesn't change that what he is doing is creating a precedent and if in the future we have to subscribe to dozen of Patreon to mod a single game, blame no one else but yourself. Now if you are good with this, that's fair. I personally think we are losing something special and great here.

It's not relevant to the discussion of wanting to be compensated for your work; I'm also not defending anyone, I've stated that thinking because someone did something for free before, it should just stay free forever, is a stupid way of thinking.

It is relevant, rather you think it's fine and are ok with illegal content, or you think it's not fair for everyone who worked on said game (Starfield and RDRII here) and you're against paid mods using someone else's content.

Does it set a bad precedent? Maybe...probably. Would I rather it be free? Yes. However, I don't think it's directly comparable to a texture or character mod. This is something that affects the performance and visual quality of the whole gameplay experience.

Then grow a pair and stop giving them money, you are just enabling this to happen even more. Also be prepared to buy more than one month since Starfield will get updates for a long time.

 

[Robb]

It is relevant

I agree. If you make mods you do so knowing the compensation is through either donations or somehow getting a deal with the dev to sell the content legally through them.

There’s no ‘you should get compensated for your work’ argument to made here imo. If I do volunteer work I enter that business knowing I will not get compensation, so it’d be ridiculous to suddenly expect compensation.

 

[CrustyBritches]

Then grow a pair and stop giving them money, you are just enabling this to happen even more. Also be prepared to buy more than one month since Starfield will get updates for a long time.

I’ll think about. I would prefer the donation route rather than paid with drm.

Truthfully, I’ll probably be done with my first playthrough within a month, I’m not worried about it long-term.

I blame AMD and Bethesda more than I blame him.

 

[KyoZz]

I agree. If you make mods you do so knowing the compensation is through either donations or somehow getting a deal with the dev to sell the content legally through them.

There’s no ‘you should get compensated for your work’ argument to made here imo. If I do volunteer work I enter that business knowing I will not get compensation, so it’d be ridiculous to suddenly expect compensation.

Yep, and that's without Nexus Mod & donation which are BOTH very good ways to make money for your hard work. He is doing this on volunteering, why should the user who already brought the game paid for this bushtit, and more than one time with that since it will get updated and made obsolete every weeks.

I’ll think about. I would prefer the donation route rather than paid with drm.

Truthfully, I’ll probably be done with my first playthrough within a month, I’m not worried about it long-term.

I blame AMD and Bethesda more than I blame him.

It's between you and you. As always, vote with your wallet.

 

[MrTroubleMaker]

I hope another modder will release one

 

[Clear]

As for gamers being so antagonistic about pay and labour relations ....... hm perhaps because gamers are getting tired of being shafted up the arse just so they can enjoy their hobby.

Oh please. Its not hard to do a bit of due diligence and get a full picture of what you're getting for your money. As you yourself point out, its a hobby, so buying or not buying anything isn't a matter of necessity or even need.

I'd never advocate for people wasting good money on shitty products, but at the same time its not up to me what anyone else considers to be fair value. People need to make up their own minds and act accordingly. And truthfully the same goes for product suppliers too; if they want to sell their thing at excessive cost and likely do smaller numbers... that's up to them.

What I do have an issue with though is this idea that developers are beholden to support their products forever, because that's just crazy. Its just not a realistic thing to commit to in every circumstance, and if continual maintenance is in fact required that period of support should be factored into the cost.

 

[Red5]

This mod costs £4.50 a month, in 12 months time people will have spent almost as much as the game starfield on one singular mod that only adds one thing to the game. The minute you stop subscribing your mod ceases to work so you have pissed away money and got nothing to show for it. It is a huge rip off what he is doing. If you believe in a fair days work requires a fair days pay then you shouldn't be supporting this rip off merchant. He isn't after "fair compensation" for his work he is ripping people off big time.

There is no point in me going "blah blah I am not gonna buy it" because I never mod games, way too much bullshit to wade through and incompatibilities. So I was never gonna bother with this con man anyway. However it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see he is shitting all over the fellow modding communtiy full of people that love the game and love the community and want to contribute to it and make the experience better for all.

As for gamers being so antagonistic about pay and labour relations ....... hm perhaps because gamers are getting tired of being shafted up the arse just so they can enjoy their hobby. The gaming companies microtransaction the hell out of us and our one sanctuary which is modding done by people that care about the hobby is being infested with conjobs like this guy further wanting to shaft gamers money wise. Hm can't see why gamers would have a problem with that.

You don't need him to enjoy your hobby and he doesn't owe you anything especially not working for free, there's really nothing more to it.

 

[CharmingCharlie]

What I do have an issue with though is this idea that developers are beholden to support their products forever, because that's just crazy. Its just not a realistic thing to commit to in every circumstance, and if continual maintenance is in fact required that period of support should be factored into the cost.

What is it with you and this "forever shit" no developer supports their games "forever" I have a ton of games that haven't been updated in years and some don't even work on most modern systems. Literally no one expects developers to support their stuff for ever and it DOES NOT HAPPEN. In pretty much all cases a product is long since dropped before it stops becoming profitable. I notice you don't seem to have a problem with developers SELLING their game forever though even when the games no longer work on modern systems they still keep selling the game.

Some people on here seem to have an advanced form of Stockholm syndrome with the gaming industry. Publishers and developers are not your friend they don't do shit out of the kindness of their heart. If publishers are still supporting a game it is because they are making bank from that game because if they weren't making money from it they would drop it like a brick. Most gamers know this, most gamers also know we pay through the nose for the games, the dlc and the microtransactions.

You don't need him to enjoy your hobby and he doesn't owe you anything especially not working for free, there's really nothing more to it.

Meh other than the fact he is mooching off Bethesda's work, he is an opportunistic leech and should be called out as such.

 

[justiceiro]

I'm okay with take two going after this type of modders.

 

[MikeM]

Mods with DRM....
I thought I would never see the day.

Games with DRM.
Mods with DRM.
So games with multiple DRM. That’ll go well performance-wise.

 

[Beechos]

Now he knows why devs/pubs put drm to protect their ip.

 

[Reizo Ryuu]

And it's up to me to say if I think it's a shitty move or not.

Of course, but it's not up to you to come up with a form of compensation (or none) they should be doing instead.

It is relevant

It's not, maybe for the conversation you're having with yourself, but not to the point I was making, it's off tangent and not relevant.

f I do volunteer work I enter that business knowing I will not get compensation, so it’d be ridiculous to suddenly expect compensation.

Of course, but he's not entering a business knowing he's not being compensated, he's not employed by anyone, he's selling his own service and is free to set his own terms of compensation; dumb analogy tbh.

 

[KyoZz]

Of course, but it's not up to you to come up with a form of compensation (or none) they should be doing instead.

Well you are saying "poor guy just want to make money out of his work" so I'm offering alternatives where he could get (good) money and love of the community.
What are you proposing? If we follow your logic in a few years most of the mods could be behind a paywall. Then what? Should we subscribe to 10, 15, 20 or more Patreon? Is this really what you want for the modding community?

It's not, maybe for the conversation you're having with yourself, but not to the point I was making, it's off tangent and not relevant.

How convenient. Please offer a solution other than the easy "uh he is paid because of his work" defense line.
I'm gonna post it again (for the 3rd time maybe but since you don't want to answer...):
We should agree to pay this mod more than one time since Starfield will get updates and made his mod obsolete every weeks?

Why textures mods aren't paid too? Were do you draw the line? What about illegal use and recovery of intellectual properties?

 

[Miyazaki’s Slave]

 

[Raonak]

Oooofff, what a horrible precedent.

The "developers should get paid" justification is complete bullshit.
As someone whos spent years making fangames. Fanworks, mods, hacks, etc have always been free because you're modifying someone else's code.
Getting donations is fine. Demanding that people pay for your modifications is just bad.
And not even just a one-off payment. a fucking subscription!?

But also, what's stopping someone from just pirating the mod

 

[Gordon Fearman]

Quick question, why do people keep saying you need to stay subscribed to get mod updates when the Patreon (including the screenshot in the OP) explicitly say that you don't? This just another case of people having stronger opinions than literacy?

 

[Reizo Ryuu]

Well you are saying "poor guy just want to make money out of his work"

No I'm not, stop putting words in my mouth; I said it's his choice if he wants to be compensated for his work, not yours.

Please offer a solution

...no? It's not relevant to the statement I made, stop projecting, I wasn't having that conversation and I'm not going to.

 

[StereoVsn]

Oooofff, what a horrible precedent.

The "developers should get paid" justification is complete bullshit.
As someone whos spent years making fangames. Fanworks, mods, hacks, etc have always been free because you're modifying someone else's code.
Getting donations is fine. Demanding that people pay for your modifications is just bad.
And not even just a one-off payment. a fucking subscription!?

But also, what's stopping someone from just pirating the mod

Patches to the game require updates to the mod...hence the subscription. You could get the mod and not update, but it will be broken as soon as Starfield patches. Which you can bet will be often especially during the first year.

Hence I am thinking the reason for DRM so other folks can't reverse engineer the fix and release it for free.

So a year of this mod will cost the same as the game or more.

 

[KyoZz]

Quick question, why do people keep saying you need to stay subscribed to get mod updates when the Patreon (including the screenshot in the OP) explicitly say that you don't? This just another case of people having stronger opinions than literacy?

Because every update made by the dev of the game will break the mod. So if you subscribe to one month just to get the mod it wont work after a single update. Then after your first month you have to subscribe again.
So yeah technically you don't have to be subscribed, but your mod will be obsolete after an update (or you should NOT update your game).

No I'm not, stop putting words in my mouth; I said it's his choice if he wants to be compensated for his work, not yours.

Yeah true, you said my way of thinking was stupid, my bad! It may not be exactly what you said, but the end result is the same rather you like it or not.

...no? It's not relevant to the statement I made, stop projecting, I wasn't having that conversation and I'm not going to.

My friend, I made plenty of arguments and yet you just dismiss them completely with this without providing actual reasoning. So maybe don't try to engage in a conversation if you don't want to contribute?

 

[Reizo Ryuu]

but the end result is the same rather you like it or not.

No, it's not; you're saying "poor guy" like I give a shit about him, I don't. I'm saying what people do is up to them, not you; foam at the mouth all you want because you hate this, it's still their decision, not yours.

So maybe don't try to engage in a conversation if you don't want to contribute?

Bruv, you made an argument I wasn't having, you're literally trying to pull me in a different conversation; my contribution to this topic is the statement I made, no other else what if scenarios you want to entertain in your mind. Just drop it, it's not happening.

 

[Portugeezer]

Sounds like some shit EA would do if they were a small modder.

 

[KyoZz]

No, it's not; you're saying "poor guy" like I give a shit about him, I don't. I'm saying what people do is up to them, not you; foam at the mouth all you want because you hate this, it's still their decision, not yours.

Yeah and sky is blue, thank you again Captain Obvious!
Well then I'm just gonna say this: what he is doing is illegal. He should not make money with it and you should not defend him (oops sorry yeah you don't defend him I forgot)

Bruv, you made an argument I wasn't having, you're literally trying to pull me in a different conversation; my contribution to this topic is the statement I made, no other else what if scenarios you want to entertain in your mind. Just drop it, it's not happening.

Bruv, you called my reasoning stupid, I'm just trying to explain to you why I think like that. And yeah one thing leading to another we are here now.
And of course as soon as I ask some question you can't answer with you logic, I'm the bad guy trying to "pull you in a different conversation". For real rather you participate in the conversation, or you don't.
You can't come here, call me names and then say "uh oh, no thanks".

 

[Reizo Ryuu]

Yeah and sky is blue, thank you again Captain Obvious!

glad you finally realise, no problem champ!

Bruv, you called my reasoning stupid

Because it is

You can't come here, call me names

I never called you names.
Wow you are so offended by something, chill out bruv, take a breath, walk around a bit to clear your mind, it's not that deep.

 

[Gordon Fearman]

Because every update made by the dev of the game will break the mod. So if you subscribe to one month just to get the mod it wont work after a single update. Then after your first month you have to subscribe again.
So yeah technically you don't have to be subscribed, but your mod will be obsolete after an update (or you should NOT update your game).

Press END to open the menu, then authenticate for the first time, no continuous subscription needed, any account that has subscribed before can pass the authentication.

So I'm assuming when it says that "any account that has subscribed before can pass the authentication" it means that any account that has subscribed before but that may not be subscribed right now or in the future can authenticate.

 

[KyoZz]

So I'm assuming when it says that "any account that has subscribed before can pass the authentication" it means that any account that has subscribed before but that may not be subscribed right now or in the future can authenticate.

You can pass the authentification, but the mod won't work with the new version of the game.
Yes, he is playing with the wording.

glad you finally realise, no problem champ!

Because it is

I never called you names.
Wow you are so offended by something, chill out bruv, take a breath, walk around a bit to clear your mind, it's not that deep.

And more nonsense.
Anyway, I just want you to answer a few questions with your reasoning, that's it. I want to understand you point of view on those things (in bold just for you):

- We should agree to pay this mod more than one time since Starfield will get updates and made his mod obsolete every weeks?
- What about the precedent this create?
- Do we have to agree to subscribe to 10, 15, 20 Patreon if we want to modify a game like Skyrim?
- What about other mods then?
- The legal aspect of all that, he is not in his right so... you are fine with that?

You keep trying to be fun while also doing everything to NOT respond with anything of substance, call me when you are ready to have an actual conversation.

 

[Reizo Ryuu]

Anyway, I just want you to answer a few questions

...but why? Everything I wanted to discuss was in my post, if you want to discuss other things, ask someone else; again, it's not happening.

 

[Gordon Fearman]

You can pass the authentification, but the mod won't work with the new version of the game.
Yes, he is playing with the wording.

So then you download the update which would have the same rule "any account that has subscribed before can pass the authentication" and it would work.

 

[KyoZz]

...but why? Everything I wanted to discuss was in my post, if you want to discuss other things, ask someone else; again, it's not happening.

4 post ago:

Bruv, you called my reasoning stupid, I'm just trying to explain to you why I think like that. And yeah one thing leading to another we are here now.
And of course as soon as I ask some question you can't answer with you logic, I'm the bad guy trying to "pull you in a different conversation". For real rather you participate in the conversation, or you don't.

It's a forum, we are here to discuss. If you don't want to discuss the matter, don't post or don't quote me saying my reasoning is stupid and then dismissing every argument I made. It's not elementary school, if you can't stand a discussion that is not going the way you want, maybe don't engage?

But I guess it's easier to pick one small thing I said than making an actual response, right?

So then you download the update which would have the same rule "any account that has subscribed before can pass the authentication" and it would work.

Nah, you don't understand.
Let's say you paid for the mod. You play with it, it's fine and then a month later a game update is released. Then you launch your game, you successfully authenticate but the mod is not working anymore.
You will have to pay another month to his Patreon to download the latest version of the mod compatible with the latest game update. And this every time your subscription end and a new update is released.

So yeah, technically if you don't update your game you don't have to stay subscribed. Bu we all know newer games tend to have updates for months. I hope it's clear now.

 

[Gordon Fearman]

Nah, you don't understand.
Let's say you paid for the mod. You play with it, it's fine and then a month later a game update is released. Then you launch your game, you successfully authenticate but the mod is not working anymore.
You will have to pay another month to his Patreon to download the latest version of the mod compatible with the latest game update. And this every time your subscription end and a new update is released.

So yeah, technically if you don't update your game you don't have to stay subscribed. Bu we all know newer games tend to have updates for months. I hope it's clear now.

No, I'm pretty sure you don't understand. "any account that has subscribed before can pass the authentication." Explain to me why when you download the update for the mod, the update won't pass authentication. You've obviously already "subscribed before" because you authenticated before, so why would you not be able to authenticate on the update?

 

[KyoZz]

Explain to me why when you download the update for the mod, the update won't pass authentication

This is where you don't get it. To get access to the new update of the mod you need to be subscribed.

 

[March Climber]

He's going about it the wrong way, but I don't find his overall intent in earning money for work to be a bad thing.

I can't get mad at him for this. He's being asked to do it for a ton of games at this point and there's a line where something crosses from hobby to work. Once that line is crossed any sane person would want some form of compensation. Donations isn't good enough, but heavy subscription style DRM is too far in the opposite direction. He should have gotten the recent memo that people are becoming more and more disgruntled with subscription services. He'd already be rich with just a one time 5 dollar payment for all access, or even a 1 dollar payment per game.

If everyone had simply played ball with Valve and Bethesda's grand idea years ago for mod-creators being paid for their work, I feel like this outcome today would have been different.

 

[Reizo Ryuu]

If you don't want to discuss the matter

I do, but "the matter" is not everything else you want to tack on to move away from the point I made, which is nobody gets to decide for someone else if they want to be compensated, just because you got it for free before.
You're free to want to discuss other things besides my point, but how about taking a hint and moving on when someone else doesn't? Again not happening, move the fuck on jeez.

 

[KyoZz]

I do, but "the matter" is not everything else you want to tack on to move away from the point I made, which is nobody gets to decide for someone else if they want to be compensated, just because you got it for free before.
You're free to want to discuss other things besides my point, but how about taking a hint and moving on when someone else doesn't? Again not happening, move the fuck on jeez.

You seem upset, you ok?
Chill out bruv, take a breath, walk around a bit to clear your mind, it's not that deep and quote me when you want to have a real conversation.

 

[Gordon Fearman]

This is where you don't get it. To get access to the new update of the mod you need to be subscribed.

That has nothing to do with DRM.

 

[KyoZz]

That has nothing to do with DRM.

What? I responded to the fact you think you don't have to be subscribed to keep using the mod (or at least that's what I thought you were saying).
I mean who gives a shit about passing the DRM if the mod is not working?

 

[Reizo Ryuu]

You seem upset, you ok?

I'm fine, thanks for asking, though copying my words isn't as clever as you might believe, so yeah, go do take that breath, it's definitely not this deep lol.