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[Men_in_Boxes]

So I'm doing my daily Marathon meditation when I stumble upon the following video...



The TLDW is "Marathon only has 4 maps, ARC Raiders has 5, and Marathons maps are much smaller. This (disadvantage) will likely hurt Marathon in terms of appeal and retention."

I've seen this thought echoed everywhere but I'm skeptical. Consider...

No basketball player says "I like basketball but I'm sick of the rectangular court and two 10ft hoops."

No chess player says "I like chess but I'm sick of playing on the 64 space board."

No Street Fighter player says "I like 2D fighting games but I'm sick of the 20 meter wide 2D levels."

The Finals launched with 4 maps, which was often cited as a problem in reviews. It now has 10 maps and it has done very little in helping with player retention/growth.

After the ARC Raiders Server Slam, I heard commentary saying they were sick of playing on Dam Battlegrounds...to which I agreed. However, upon full release, Dam Battlegrounds is by far my most played map.

I tend to think players who complain about map variety are actually complaining about gameplay depth but aren't cognizant enough to understand the real issue. Does anyone else agree?

 

[jshackles]

Wake up honey, the new Men_in_Boxes Marathon thread just dropped

 

[Guilty_AI]

Basketball map count: ~70000
Chess board count: hundreds of millions
Street fighter maps across games: ~200

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

Basketball map count: ~70000
Chess board count: hundreds of millions
Street fighter maps across games: ~200

False.

 

[Witchilich]

Once Marathon bombs what would be the next game Men_in_Boxes latch on to?

 

[Guilty_AI]

False.

True

 

[Witchilich]

This (disadvantage) will likely hurt Marathon in terms of appeal and retention.

I am pretty sure thats not the only issue with Marathon.

 

[Sybrix]

wtf is marathon?

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

Once Marathon bombs what would be the next game Men_in_Boxes latch on to?

Fairgames.

 

[Witchilich]

wtf is marathon?

A 90s macOS FPS trilogy made by some of the best devs.

 

[Guilty_AI]

wtf is marathon?

A long distance foot race

 

[Jinzo Prime]

wtf is marathon?

A miserable pile of secrets.

 

[Reizo Ryuu]

No, even in your stupid examples people enjoy variety; in SF they even banned the "training stage" from tournaments because it was boring to watch, I play tons of fighting games and enjoy all the different locations to fight in.
For shooters you might enjoy a selection of maps, and someone else enjoys a different selection, so yes it's important to have a wide variety.

 

[MetalRain]

Imagine if Witcher 3 would have only the White Orchard map. It's a good map, not even small, but there are games where exploration is a core part of the game loop, so having more to explore makes perfect sense. Arc Raiders is kind of hybrid, maps tell a story, expose the lore of the world to the players even if it is kind of one and done thing. Even in Counter Strike, having more maps than de_dust2 adds to the game. It allows different tactics and keeps players more engaged.

 

[Loomy]

Fortnite only has 1 map.

 

[Guilty_AI]

wtf is marathon?

Its also a giant spaceship built out of deimos and controlled by durandal

 

[Miles708]

Now even having a good selection of maps is a debatable feature?

When will we stop lowering standards?

 

[kpopSuperstar]

Fairgames.

 

[MiguelItUp]

Quantity doesn't equate quality. Especially for PvEvE games considering the varied possibilities in each match because of the gameplay.

The quantity of maps in a PvEvE game doesn't play such a big role as, say a COD game or something similar. But that's because of the gameplay loop and all. I mean, the experience there only has so many outcomes. So less maps can equate a more boring experience.

It really just depends on the type of game and experience.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

No, even in your stupid examples people enjoy variety; in SF they even banned the "training stage" from tournaments because it was boring to watch, I play tons of fighting games and enjoy all the different locations to fight in.

First of all, childish insults are unnecessary. Be a man.

Secondly, your fighting game examples are just wallpaper. The variety in Street Fighter maps are just different backdrops and don't change the way players play.

It's akin to Coca Cola changing their coke cans every 3 or 6 months. Little more than a novelty.

 

[Lupin3]

I prefer a smaller pool of well made maps instead of too many uninteresting fillers. But in the end it's about quality, no matter how many or few there are. I tend to stick to handful of favorites in the games I play. If possible.

 

[poppabk]

First of all, childish insults are unnecessary. Be a man.

Secondly, your fighting game examples are just wallpaper. The variety in Street Fighter maps are just different backdrops and don't change the way players play.

It's akin to Coca Cola changing their coke cans every 3 or 6 months. Little more than a novelty.

Which is exactly the point, all your examples the 'map' is just a 2D plane to play the game on. Tell me - how would marathon go if its maps were just 2D planes with no objects?

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

Which is exactly the point, all your examples the 'map' is just a 2D plane to play the game on. Tell me - how would marathon go if its maps were just 2D planes with no objects?

Basketball is played on a 3D court. The Finals and ARC Raiders offer 3D environments as well.

So if by "all" you mean 40% of my examples were just 2D planes then yes, all of my examples were 2D planes.

 

[Hookshot]

10 maps or 100 maps don't rotate them like Splatoon did. Let people play on what they want when they want.

 

[Reizo Ryuu]

First of all, childish insults are unnecessary. Be a man.

There were no insults, your examples are stupid, like most of your threads.

and don't change the way players play.

Who cares, the only thing that matters if people value if there's variety and they do.

 

[Hypereides]

EDIT: comment withdrawn.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

There were no insults, your examples are stupid, like most of your threads.

Mature into a man.

Who cares, the only thing that matters if people value if there's variety and they do.

Novelty has a value, as does depth.

 

[Minari]

Unreal Tournament had many maps but we only played Opposing Worlds 90% of the time..so yes

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

Unreal Tournament had many maps but we only played Opposing Worlds 90% of the time..so yes

Yup. Same thing with Counter Strike and Dust.

 

[Guilty_AI]

EDIT: comment withdrawn.

Coward

 

[Reizo Ryuu]

Mature into a man.

mature into making good threads.

 

[simpatico]

I don't think it's ever a deciding factor. Marathon has a lot of hurdles ahead of it and map count is the least of it. Can anyone think of a time a pre-release lolcow turned it around and ended up successful and loved?

Can anyone think of a time the chuds turned a game into a lolcow that did not deserve it? (In terms of gameplay quality)

 

[kevboard]

yes.

but map count is not the issue Marathon seems to have.

the real issue there seems to be that the few maps that are there are both small and relatively bland in terms of their complexity and possible strategies

 

[Guilty_AI]

Mature into a man.

A man in boxes?

 

[Danjin44]

First of all, childish insults are unnecessary. Be a man.

You could avoid all of this if you for once make a decent thread.

When you stupid ass threads like these..

Thread 'If the games industry wants to grow, they should embrace PAY 2 WIN. Yeah yeah, calm down...'

Feb 18, 2024

Pay 2 win is one of the most universally despised concepts in gaming. I, like many of you, hissed at it for most of my gaming life.

I was wrong.

The problem with Pay 2 win has always been in its implementation, not in it's concept.

Our favorite movies, TV shows, and books abide by Pay 2 Win rules. Darth Vader spends trillions building his Death Star. He has billions of white helmeted soldiers. He's bribing (I think) politicians across the galaxy. Luke Skywalker enters as a F2P player. Darth Vader has numerous advantages over Luke Skywalker but Luke still has "fun" fighting...

• Men_in_Boxes
• Replies: 198
• Forum: Gaming Discussion

• 
• 
• 

Don't be surprised when people start making fun of you.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

yes.

but map count is not the issue Marathon seems to have.

the real issue there seems to be that the few maps that are there are both small and relatively bland in terms of their complexity and possible strategies

I agree with this, but I also think about the popularity of Counter Strike & Valorant which both have less complexity and less possible strategy, than Marathon. It makes me question the importance of those characteristics.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

You cou...

 

[Dacvak]

I miss the days when maps weren't so meticulously designed to be fair and competitive. I'd rather they make more maps, and just see what sticks.

Some of the best maps ever were from Halo 1 and 2, and shit like Facility in Goldeneye.

 

[SScorpio]

A 90s macOS FPS trilogy made by some of the best devs.

Compared to other games available on the Mac. But PC?

Bungie were some of the best devs.

 

[Witchilich]

Compared to other games available on the Mac. But PC?

Bungie were some of the best devs.

Yes. OG Marathon trilogy was better than Doom/Quake.

 

[wipeout364]

It's a false argument you are making. No live service game has ever been hurt by more good quality maps. I would argue that players may be satisfied with a few maps but new maps are always exciting for the player base and excitement drives engagement.

The problem is that many times the follow up maps are not good since the A team (innovators) moves on and leaves the B team ( just looking for a paycheque crew) to carry on.

 

[poppabk]

Basketball is played on a 3D court. The Finals and ARC Raiders offer 3D environments as well.

So if by "all" you mean 40% of my examples were just 2D planes then yes, all of my examples were 2D planes.

Err the original point was that Arc Raiders has more and bigger maps. And as you pointed out the Finals now has 10 maps.
Do you think Marathon will only ever have 4 maps if it doesn't go Concord and die before they can add new content?

 

[I collect VHS tapes]

of course maps are important if you want players to spend a lot of time in your game. Arc has some amazing atmospheric maps that are just a joy to explore.

doesn't help the limited maps Marathon does have look disgusting with random ass strong colors everywhere

 

[realcool]

So I'm doing my daily Marathon meditation when I stumble upon the following video...



The TLDW is "Marathon only has 4 maps, ARC Raiders has 5, and Marathons maps are much smaller. This (disadvantage) will likely hurt Marathon in terms of appeal and retention."

I've seen this thought echoed everywhere but I'm skeptical. Consider...

No basketball player says "I like basketball but I'm sick of the rectangular court and two 10ft hoops."

No chess player says "I like chess but I'm sick of playing on the 64 space board."

No Street Fighter player says "I like 2D fighting games but I'm sick of the 20 meter wide 2D levels."

The Finals launched with 4 maps, which was often cited as a problem in reviews. It now has 10 maps and it has done very little in helping with player retention/growth.

Gameplay is made of constraints: core mechanics, maps, modes, etc. While all of these constraints affect how a video game is played, they also contribute to staleness. All the examples you've given have evolved in some form, and none of them are immune to staleness.

After the ARC Raiders Server Slam, I heard commentary saying they were sick of playing on Dam Battlegrounds...to which I agreed. However, upon full release, Dam Battlegrounds is by far my most played map.

I tend to think players who complain about map variety are actually complaining about gameplay depth but aren't cognizant enough to understand the real issue. Does anyone else agree?

What do you propose Embark do about Arc Raiders' lack of gameplay depth?

 

[Sakura]

Kinda depends on the game. Imagine if Smash Bros or Halo 2 only had 4 maps. I think it would be a big deal.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

Err the original point was that Arc Raiders has more and bigger maps. And as you pointed out the Finals now has 10 maps.
Do you think Marathon will only ever have 4 maps if it doesn't go Concord and die before they can add new content?

No, I'm sure they'll add more as time progresses. I just tend to think map counts are largely overvalued by most.

What do you propose Embark do about Arc Raiders' lack of gameplay depth?

I wouldn't tell Michelangelo how to improve the Sistine Chapel. I'd let the Master Craftsman build out the vision.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

of course maps are important if you want players to spend a lot of time in your game. Arc has some amazing atmospheric maps that are just a joy to explore.

Imagine how much more successful DotA 2 would have been if they only released a new map every 3 months...

 

[Alexios]

Depends on the game, some games with many maps only a few favorites are played anyway, some BR type games are mega hits and have like 1 or 2, so, whatever works for the game and maybe more or even less, wouldn't change anything to the better, or worse. Maybe this one needs variety, Idk.

 

[I collect VHS tapes]

Imagine how much more successful DotA 2 would have been if they only released a new map every 3 months...

Comparing these games to dota of all things is the biggest cope I've seen all week

I hate to be the one to tell you this dude, but you making 1 billion marathon threads is not gonna save the game

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

Comparing these games to dota of all things is the biggest cope I've seen all week

I hate to be the one to tell you this dude, but you making 1 billion marathon threads is not gonna save the game

This is too juvenile a response. Lets add to the discussion rather than act catty.