Do you prefer simple levelling systems or you do prefer complex levelling systems?

What do you prefer?

  • Simple levelling where I can max out everything or there is minimum choice

    Votes: 39 50.6%

  • Complex levelling where I have limited points or have to synergise

    Votes: 38 49.4%
  • Total voters
    77
cormack12

cormack12

Gold Member
So by simple I mean you can max everything out, or the choices are quite binary. See BF V and Control for example

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Or do you prefer quite complex, choice and point based systems like:

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I would say I prefer complex but not if I am "locked in" with no possibility to change. You should be able to respec, even if it costs something.
 
I'd say whatever suits the game. The only thing I really dislike is having a leveling system for the sake of having a leveling system in a game that never needed it. Which is most games nowadays. Battlefield 5 and Control in the OP are pretty good examples.
 
I like complex systems, but not ones where I'm only gaining 1% of something with a max of 5% then the next node just gives me another hill to climb with 1%-5% those trees are useless and typical of F2P games or games with mechanics like that.
 
Simple.

Only because I don't really play RPGs anymore and prefer basic stuff like Dragon Quest. I just want to level up and not get sidetracked on a plethora of perks/abilities.

I have no problem with complex systems, I'm just not overly familiar with them or seek out games that contain them.
 
jaysius said:
I like complex systems, but not ones where I'm only gaining 1% of something with a max of 5% then the next node just gives me another hill to climb with 1%-5% those trees are useless and typical of F2P games or games with mechanics like that.
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This right here. Complex systems are cool, but so many games offer make it so each individual big of progress feels meaningless. If the player can't immediately notice something has changed, then you've failed in my opinion.
 
Simple usually, but depends on the game ofc.

Control shouldn't even have had a skill tree and the "random" loot (its mostly wasn't) should have been much more curated. The DLCs gave you way more unique mods and they actually allowed you to create builds but by the time I had them all, the content was completed.

If you get 2x legendary "ammo refund on evade" mods that add up to at least 35% refund and then an "energy regen" mod that gives at least a 50% buff you can fire the Spin for about 30 seconds straight with proper management, its super satisfying.

My favourite gun setup was a Charge one where you can get a mod that refunds you ammo when you get a hit, and since it has a AOE that counts every person you hit with each shot, combine that with 1 or 2 Infinite quality "blast radius increase" mods and you just load all 3 shots into the gun, fire at one guy and you get all your ammo refunded. You can't be ANYWHERE near them though because the AOE is so big that you can easily kill yourself at even medium range.

The game would have been even more fun if they nailed that part of it. Heres hoping the Control successor takes that onboard.
 
I think it depends on the story for me. For example, if you are supposed to be driving to a point where you are essentially a god, then you should be able to max out everything but if you are not then I like paths and specializations.

Definitely not too complex though. Ones with hundreds of options are not for me.
 
I really love simple systems like Skyrim, where you simple get better at what you do, but if it's not that I want a decent amount of depth. I hate, but also really appreciate systems where you can't just max everything out. Level caps are great!
 
DGrayson said:
I would say I prefer complex but not if I am "locked in" with no possibility to change. You should be able to respec, even if it costs something.
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This.

FFX's Sphere Grid was arguably my favorite. Path of Exile has a great one, too.

Worst is generic leveling with nigh-meaningless specializations (looking at you, Elder Scrolls).
 
The question of whether a leveling system is complex or not is subjective, unless it's intentionally convoluted.

For example, many people are confused about FFXIII's crystarium and have trouble keeping up with what's going on. But the truth is there's little interactivity and leveling up can be basically compared to... a hallway, a hallway that moves to the next point on the grid automatically even when there are twists and turns. It's all just visual trickery, but some individuals are not able to see past the presentation, so for them it would be complex.
 
I prefer simple, can be asked to figure out what stat needs to be increased for .1% increase in whatever.
 
I hate useless skills or dump stats. If they don't factor into the gameplay than why are they fuckin there in the first place. Older crpgs were rife with this stuff, but you still see it nowadays.
 
I would love to come back home after a busy day squeezing gaming time to find myself spending 5 min customizing a gun or a skill.
 
As I dont replay games, I went with simple as I can see most abilities in one go.

Someone preferring multiple playthroughs could prefer complex systems as that would add variety to otherwise same game.
 
Out of those 2 options I guess complex.

But to be honest I'd say what I really want is something in between the 2.
I like leveling systems that are rather straightforward, without a million stats and skills and passive upgrades and having to spend hours looking at a menu to figure out how to build your character. But I still want choice, I don't want to be able to get every skill, I want there to be enough variety to allow for multiple builds and so my character still feels a bit more unique.

From the upgrade systems you posted I think the Witcher 3 comes closest to what I want.
 
I like complex systems with lots of different builds and skill combinations to play with. BUT

a. There should at least be some way to respec

b. You shouldn't be able to permanently gimp yourself (e.g. randomized stat boosts at level-up, or equipment/espers that give you stat bonus at level up if you happen to have them equipped at the time)
 
Part of the game for me is the skill point road map and allocation.

I don't like when I have 20 skills and 20 skill points. The last few points should be the most epic, but ends up being the worst skills as they had low priority.

That being said. Path of exile was a bit too much choice and complexity.

Like many have said, low/medium cost unlimited respec is important.

Locking in with no chance to try skills and no respec for the entire game no longer flies!
 
As a role-player (even in non-role playing games) I lean toward complex. But I'd say "deep" is a better word. There are a lot of games that make leveling and progression complex just for the sake of complexity but it doesn't really add anything to the experience. I want something deep that gives life to my character, or something customizable if we're talking about leveling up gear.
 
I like complex leveling, but I'm cool with spreadsheet levels of options. I don't have the time nor attention span to look through all the calculations.
 
I would say both.

Simple but not too simplistic, since it would feel like making the player look way too dumb to figure.

Complex but not exaggerate levels of complexity. We're talking about games, not realistic circuit programs.

Anything other than something like Skyrim leveling armor mechanic(which I believe is pretty moronic) is good.
 
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I think my bigger issue is games with skill trees that don't need them. Control is a good example from the OP. Not every game needs RPG mechanics.

My preference is for more in depth stat/skill management. Also don't be afraid to let me become a god and break your game if that's how I want to invest my time.

Something I've always wanted and Peter Molyneux of all people touched on with Fable, but in typical Molyneux fashion failed miserably is an organic system were skill and character levels aren't surfaced. I've always called it "You Are What You Do (YAWYD)". Want more health points? Take more damage in combat. Want to become better with swords? Wield it in combat. Want to increase your encumbrance? Carry more shit. Proficiencies wouldn't scale linearly and I realize balancing would probably be a nightmare, but I go back to letting the player break the game. You could even have a hardcore mode that allowed for skill atrophy should you neglect using them.
 
Depends on the game, generally I like it simple so that in late-game I have everything maxed-out, even if it needs XP grinding or multiple New Game+, but Fallout 2 SPECIAL system is the GOAT for me, just as the game itself. Also in Star Wars games it totally makes sense to lean towards either Light or Dark side.
 
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I prefer complex, but there's a limit. I hated Divinity OS2 for example because it was way too complex, but I love some of the old school DND rpgs.
 
Borderlands does complex leveling good. Enjoying figuring out the mixture that suits my play style best.

But I like both systems depending on the game.
 
I voted simple purely because most complex I've played don't give a respec option. If I could respec whenever I pleased I'd love the complex.
Certain games work better with a specific system though and changing to the other might not work as well.

Also POE was too much complexity for me, I like a little less than that.
 
Trick question since there are a good number of action games which would be better without leveling systems IMO.

For the rest of the games which earn its RPG stripes, I prefer more complex most of the time. Even Dragon Quest benefits from mechanics like jobs which changes stats, equipment and skills. Had a lot of fun tinkering my characters in Dragon Quest IX.
 
Ideally any levelling up choice will give a meaningful change to the way the character moves or plays such as a new move. Just buffing up numbers especially if they are marginal is boring as you don't notice the difference.

You shouldn't be able to max all of them out because the choice becomes meaningless. What you need as a range of meaningful things to level up but not able to achieve all of them

The skill trees also should not be linear because you don't want to be half way through a game and realise that, that skill at the end of the path you didn't choose at all is really useful.

As to how to make this work I'm not sure except possibly class each point of the levelling up in stages and keep all skills available at all points and just have the requirement that for you to gain a stage five skill you must previously have had 3 stage ones, 3 stage twos etc.

You could say why not have a respec. Firstly it is brain ache. Secondly, it gives me the impression that a particular boss was designed with a particular build in mind and so I have to reallocate just right to have a chance of beating it. All enemies should be of similar difficulty whatever spec you choose.
 
My ideal levelling is one which gives me lots of options to choose from, and where the choices I make have a tangible impact on how I play. I don't mind not being able to max out.
 
I'd say in general I'm more leaning toward simpler trees that I can max out everywhere or without much hard choices, I'm too prone to analysis paralysis (and a game that does it too much can feel tiresome).
 
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DeusExSkills.jpg

I prefer systems with a smaller number of more meaningful choices that have clear impact upon upgrading.

As others have mentioned, I don't want a grid of 10,000 icons where each one adds 0.1% to my chance to parry critical strikes. I want a leveling system where jumping from level 1/4 to 2/4 feels like a big change, and that that change is clearly explained.
 
I prefer nicely implemented complex leveling systems.

Path of Exile is not a great example though - despite having the enormous skill tree - you literally can broke your build and have to start from the very beginning if you don't use guides. Then what's the reason to have the complex skill tree if you are still required to have a certain way to play?
 
The only games to do this right have usually been Arcanum, Ragnarok Online and Diablo 2. Maybe system shock 2 as well. Wish I had more examples.

Where you can put in a single point and your gameplay can be entirely changed.
 
Complex.

But that's assuming it's a good leveling system, if it's a bad system, for example with uninteresting upgrades that don't really feel like they make much difference, then a simple system is better.

In a good complex system, I can make a creative build for a character that really feels like it's my own character, and that I'm playing the game my own way. Or it feels like I could find some exploit to build an overly powerful character and there's a satisfaction that goes with coming up with some clever way to do that. Simple doesn't feel like much of anything, it's like you're experiencing exactly what everyone else does with no variation, leveling up doesn't seem very special in that scenario.
 
When a leveling system allows you to max everything eventually i find it to feel like a pointless grind, the only saving grace being that in some games works as an artificial tutorial allowing player to familiarize themselves with new mechanics one by one when the game it's to complex to introduce everything at once.

If the game has a leveling system my expectations are that those decisions while leveling would carry some weight in how you play and your options because of it. The leveling system in games like Witcher 3 and Horizon are completely redundant in my eyes, the games are mechanically and strategically way to simple to justify it as a learning tool and they carry no weight behind what you chose.
 
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