User 100115
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The events surround the end of the universe and the pandoria happened BEFORE silenceo. So yeah, they needed to trap him because they thought he would end the universe.
Doctor Who Series Seven |OT| The Question You've Been Running From All Your Life
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The events surround the end of the universe and the pandoria happened BEFORE silenceo. So yeah, they needed to trap him because they thought he would end the universe.
peanutbutterlatte
Member
Not if the story contains a pre-Doomsday Rose & Ten as rumoured.
Aw maaan that sounded cool. I would much rather see Ten and Amy over Ten and Clara interact in the 50th :\
Yeah it's a mess. I mean, to add more problems to the pile - how does anyone of series 5 or 6 make sense if the doctor has now erased himself from every database in history? Lol. River said she was released because the man she killed no longer existed, but if time works like that how was she ever convicted in the first place? MY HEAD. Maybe it'll make more sense after some light is shed on what happens at trenzalore but I'm not holding my breath. I enjoy the ambition of Moffat's storytelling even if he doesn't always play by his own rules.
I still don't understand how reading ahead "fixes" your future, or why amy and rory are trapped, to this day.
brucewaynegretzky
Member
GUYS! What if 11 regenerated into....... 10!?!?!?!
The 12th doctor has already been cast and will appear in the 50th - with 11's regeneration into 12 being detailed at christmas.
Calling it.
peanutbutterlatte
Member
I would really love this. Assuming it won't be pointed out that 12 is 12.
Referring to your earlier post, I found the "deleting evidence of his history" thing weird too. Mainly because in the reboot series, it always seems like people are surprised he exists anyway. "You shouldn't exist!" etc.
And I mean it's not as if he's going to stop doing batshit insane things like driving up the side of a building that gained him that notoriety in the first place... so I don't honestly see the point.
Moffat keeps talking about how he wants the 50th to be as much about looking to the future as reminiscing about the past so I'm not quite sure what he could mean other than the above.
And yeah it's pretty confusing, but I guess time travel by its very nature is completely paradoxical and non-sensical, so to expect a series where time travel is the central conceit to be completely self-congruent is probably asking too much.
Wibbly wobbly timey wimey logic solves the 'known' date of death of the doctor. It's not traditional cause and effect. It's like a closed loop which starts at his death and follows through until it happens again in his point of view. If S5 Doctor/Daleks/Cybermen/Etc looked up his death he wouldn't find it at Lake Silencio since although it would happen, it hadn't yet happened.
Like Melody Malone's book in Angels take Manhattan. Once you read it, or experience it, it becomes fixed.
Like Melody Malone's book in Angels take Manhattan. Once you read it, or experience it, it becomes fixed.
Isn't that one of the major prevailing theories right now? I know it's been discussed before in this thread.
Especially since Moffet is so fond of introducing characters out of order.
Hot Coldman
Banned
Have they started burning effigies of Eccleston in the middle of Cardiff yet
So when the doctor dies at lake silencio, do all of the details of it magically appear in all those books at the university river was at and on the tesselecta's database? (Not being facetious, , just desperate to understand!) - if not, why didn't all of the aliens already know about it?
Also regarding the logic of time being fixed once you've read about it, why did the book have to be factual? From the doctor's perspective in that episode he contradicts fixed time because he doesn't free river from the angel when he thought he had to break her wrist (even if by reading on in the book he might have discovered that he doesn't) - if Amy and Rory had just planted dummy gravestones in that graveyard instead of actually living out their lives in the past, what difference would it have made, surely that wouldn't be paradoxical? As long as the book doesnt change it doesn't create a paradox, so the doctor and amy could have done anything really as long as they told river to lie about the altered events when she came to write the book.
Gah, this is bringing back the disappointment of the angels take manhattan all over again. I wish that ending had just been presented as Amy making a final choice of a life with Rory over travelling with the doctor instead of contriving some dubious timey wimey cage.
peanutbutterlatte
Member
I'm just finishing mine off with big, potato ears.
I personally found it weird he lived a 100 years or so before getting the balls to go face his fate. It's hard to believe nothing hugely significant happened to him in that time.
The Real Abed
Perma-Junior
Someone explain exactly why we hate Eccleston now please. I still don't get it and really like him as The Doctor.
Man, I know the audience at large probably wouldn't be happy with it, but John Hurt would make an amazing doctor.
The days of septuagenarian actors playing the doctor are probably long gone though.
The point is that the cause doesn't necessarily come before the effect.
Our real universe follows the arrow of time. The Doctor's doesn't. I'm not just handwaving it, but it's been an integral part of doctor who mechanics forever.
The doctor could go to the end of the universe and read how and when all his enemies died, and how he died, and how Amy died. Same for the Daleks, they could see that the Doctor died someday and so not need to ever stop him. We should also still be seeing time lords running around anyway travelling in time before the time war, all of which knowing exactly that the Doctor will kill them all.
It's just a mechanic of the universe, don't think to much about it.
Our real universe follows the arrow of time. The Doctor's doesn't. I'm not just handwaving it, but it's been an integral part of doctor who mechanics forever.
The doctor could go to the end of the universe and read how and when all his enemies died, and how he died, and how Amy died. Same for the Daleks, they could see that the Doctor died someday and so not need to ever stop him. We should also still be seeing time lords running around anyway travelling in time before the time war, all of which knowing exactly that the Doctor will kill them all.
It's just a mechanic of the universe, don't think to much about it.
peanutbutterlatte
Member
It's like all your really attractive exes are coming round to have a celebratory orgy, but the dark, broody one that was into all the kinky stuff is refusing to show. So you pretend to hate them, even though you want them like crazy.
Exterminieren
Banned
Gone? They were never here. The role has never been suitable for an actor that age, and it's even less so with the filming schedules of today.
Hot Coldman
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Pop-O-Matic
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You must have a really interesting life if that is the best simile you could come up with.
Hoolee shit, nailed it
But how could he end the universe if the time-travel-capable races were aware that his death was established as a fixed point in time?
He can't end the universe *and* die at Lake Silencio. If he does end the universe, he can't die at Lake Silencio, and vice-versa. If his death is a fixed point, if it's an established historical occurrence which the time-travel capable races should be aware of, they should come to that conclusion.
The solution I go for, for what it's worth, is simply to go with the trousers of time analogy. After he 'died', he's now in a leg of the trousers of time where the events of the Pandorica never occurred. He still recalled them - they happened to him - because he was in that particular leg at the time, but has now moved into a different one.
I suspect both RTD and Moffat have deliberately built in some huge gaps to leave nice big holes into which Big Finish or novel authors can insert new adventures.
JonathanEx
Member
I think series one had two specific points that the spinoff novels fit in to timeline-wise?
I don't know about that, but I *do* know that the novels had their own Bad Wolf mentions placing them firmly into the series one era (back when the mentions were just casual and regular rather than tying in to Something Big About To Happen - or, as in Tooth and Claw, Something Wolfy About To Happen)
JonathanEx
Member
Yes!
Just Wikipedia checked and I'm sort of right and sort of wrong. They're vague, but sort of fall around two points in the series.
Exterminieren
Banned
The Nine, Rose and Jack novels had to fit between The Doctor Dances and Boom Town thanks to being omitted from Rose's flashback to the events between Boom Town and Bad Wolf. Boom Town also features an onscreen reference to one of the Nine and Rose books, which I always thought was a nice touch, even though The Monsters Inside was crap.
I think the earlier Nine and Rose books slotted between The Long Game and Father's Day, but I couldn't swear to that off the top of my head. There's a short story compilation which uses the events of Last of The Time Lords as a framing narrative
There's an Eleven, Amy and Rory book that ends with them heading for Rio, which sets it pretty firmly directly ahead of The Hungry Earth/Cold Blood.
On a slight tangent, it's interesting to read Made In Steel, the Quick Reads novella that they brought out back in 2007. It was the first piece of media written featuring Martha Jones, and it was released a month before she debuted on TV, but Terrance Dicks was working from early scripts and character outlines, so a lot of the details of Martha's life were slightly out from what was on screen. That's another one set between two specific episodes, actually; has to be between The Lazarus Experiment and 42.
I got a chuckle from this, as everything from Moffat's run so far points to him liking to leave things like this as unanswered as possible for as long as possible, only to answer them as abruptly and half heartedly as possible at the last possible moment.
I do like the theories and chronology talk though that follows that post, as it's not something I
usually care about (outside of wanting a 8->9 regeneration/time war).
The 10th and Amy idea would certainly be interesting, and make 11 seem like less of a forgetful yutz when he finally does come back to Amy's place.
PhoncipleBone
Banned
Lol. Awesome analogy.
peanutbutterlatte
Member
I don't get this, they were always tying into something bigger about to happen.
I think he means that the Bad Wolf mentions weren't as in-your-face as the *ominous pan and zoom-in* Cracks.
EDIT: What. No, I read that wrong. Point still stands though.
APZonerunner
Member
They weren't, no. It started out as something RTD was sneaking into his scripts and editing into the scripts of others for fun, as a challenge. It was only around halfway through filming, when the production staff kept excitedly asking him what it meant, that he realized he should actually make it INTO something. He's been on the record with this a lot. Same's true of the mention of 'Torchwood' in Bad Wolf in S1 of Who - when that was written it was a nod to the code word for Who during production (tapes of the rushes during filming etc were labelled 'Torchwood' to stop them from getting intercepted) and had no real meaning within the Who universe - but then RTD fell in love with the word, built it into Series 2, and...
peanutbutterlatte
Member
Oh, that's really interesting. First "Torchwood" reference was in S1E12, so makes sense really.
Is there any reason, be it in the plot or from the production side of things, for the words being "Bad Wolf"? I understand that Rose just used it because she knew she would in the cheap paradox way, but it always bothered me that the words themselves never meant anything in the great scheme of things. I was expecting at least a nod to red hiding hood or whatever for why they came to be. It was silly that the Host said she had "something of the wolf about her" in series 2 too, what does that even mean in this context lol.
In Series 1, they were pervasive over the whole series building to a climax in the final episodes. Later mentions had a fairly immediate and direct payoff.
The "torchwood" and "you're gonna die donna" arcs in series 2 and 4 respectively were groan-inducingly conspicuous - but I actually found the arc in series 3 the most compelling of the RTD era (isn't it implied that the master is already the primeminister at early as the christmas special with donna? The fact that "mr saxon" has the latitude to issue orders to the military certainly alludes to that)
Exterminieren
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I thought the series 4 plot was by far the most compelling; no arc words, just a series of elements that culminated at the end of the series. Missing planets, disappearing bees, Shadow Proclamation, Medusa Cascade, something on Donna's back... by far the most interesting way RTD did it.
The disappearing bees thing didn't make any sense though (as in the alleged way in which it allowed the doctor to find the earth was pretty tenuous, why would the trail move with the planet, surely it would remain in the same position?) - and the "something on your back" metaphor - what exactly did that end up meaning again - just foreshadowing for turn left?
To me it smacked of shoving lots of recurring themes in hoping that would compensate for none of them alone being particularly interesting or surprising.
Exterminieren
Banned
Something on your back was Donna's time beetle thing.
I'm not saying all the revelations paid off well, but dropping clues for us to discover for ourselves was better than TORCHWOODTORCHWOODTORCHWOODTORCHWOOD.
I mean, few people twigged that the missing planets meant anything, and then they revealed the title of The Stolen Earth and the fandom went "OH SHIT" en masse.
peanutbutterlatte
Member
This episode looks like it's going to suck. I'd love to be pleasantly surprised!
I'm trying to think of a good second episode and i'm coming up blank. I liked Dinosaurs on a Spaceship last year but it was pretty polarising.
Day of the Moon was brilliant by contrast, but only because it had the lead-in.
EleventhDoctor
Banned
But as Fuu mentions, "Bad Wolf" really is pointless. I means nothing, other than a reference to the season finale. It's just random arbitrary words.
Box of Bunnies
Banned
Dinosaurs is probably the best we've gotten in the revival. In terms of classic series serials (rather than individual episodes) there was The Daleks in series 1 and The Tenth Planet in series 4 which are both highly important to the show as a whole.
Hot Coldman
Banned
The End of the World wasn't too bad at the time, but I dunno if I'd recommend it now.
I really, really like Dinosaurs on a Spaceship.
...Does Day of the Moon count?
I really, really like Dinosaurs on a Spaceship.
...Does Day of the Moon count?
Exterminieren
Banned
I like The End of the World, Tooth and Claw and The Fires of Pompeii, and The Shakespeare Code has its moments.
The Beast Below and maybe Night Terrors if you count it are the only bad ones for my tastes.
APZonerunner
Member
Pompeii>Shakespeare>Dinosaurs>End of the World>Tooth & Claw>Beast Below>Black Spot for me.
It is worth noting that 'The End of the World' is a vital tone setter for the series in general though in a wider sense, and its fingerprints are on a hell of a lot of the non-earth based episodes since.
Well, they're two random but distinct words Rose seeded for herself. The point of it being Bad Wolf is that it's distinct enough to be easily noticed when the time comes.
It is worth noting that 'The End of the World' is a vital tone setter for the series in general though in a wider sense, and its fingerprints are on a hell of a lot of the non-earth based episodes since.
Well, they're two random but distinct words Rose seeded for herself. The point of it being Bad Wolf is that it's distinct enough to be easily noticed when the time comes.
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