Support NeoGAF

[Violet_0]

How is that movement going BTW?

I think some of them found a job

 

[DY_nasty]

Fox News and basically every other national news network had nothing but pleasant things to say about Occupy Wall Street. Top headlines included, "Well-groomed hippies protest financial corruption and inequality"...and "R.E.I. launches its OWS advertising campaign to show off its latest line of high tech city camping tents - camp in the city with style".

Or not...OWS was a threat to business as usual and was treated by big media as such. If you wanted to get an honest perspective about the movement you had to look to independent bloggers. Otherwise if your source of news was Fox or CNN you were left with the impression that Occupy equals smelly people in tents.

We're so quick to allow our government to extinguish OWS...DY_nasty, what happens when a legitimate (by your standards) movement comes along and the same thing happens. Will you still argue they deserved it?

The government did what?

OWS made itself look bad by screwing up on over half of their appearances on an open mic. You got it all wrong, I'm not arguing the message. I'm saying that they were a self-defeating mess of an organization that wasted a great opportunity by thinking that good things simply just HAPPEN and bad things should never happen to warriors of truth. And they were utterly clueless at times that they turned down the "1%" that offered to support them because they were either incapable of receiving the support because their shit was in order or because they went all high and mighty on them by sticking to their "1 v 99" tagline over common sense.

The Tea Party is funded by the billionaire Koch brothers and advertised by Fox News.

If my startup had that kind of support I might be able to compete with Google too.

You make it sound like OWS couldn't get interviews or airtime. That's completely false. They got their shots and they ruined them time and time again. Also, its really hard to get money when you alienate anyone willing to cut you a check.

 

[kame-sennin]

OWS/Tea Party really isn't a fair comparison to make. The Tea Party naturally struck a chord with any wealthy party who felt like not paying as much taxes, and benefited by having sympathizers in prominent positions in politics and in the media.

OWS, on the other hand, seemed to threaten nearly any party in any position of power (at least on the surface) and so it naturally drew nothing but criticism from the media and opposition from all angles.

I think you'd find it hard to argue that the Tea Party faced or overcame anything close to the levels of opposition that OWS was faced with as soon as it gained the slightest bit of traction.

Indeed. It's so obvious in fact that one might wonder if people making the comparison aren't being intellectually dishonest.

And they were utterly clueless at times that they turned down the "1%" that offered to support them because they were either incapable of receiving the support because their shit was in order or because they went all high and mighty on them by sticking to their "1 v 99" tagline over common sense.

What in the world are you talking about?

 

[empty vessel]

The government did what?

OWS made itself look bad by screwing up on over half of their appearances on an open mic. You got it all wrong, I'm not arguing the message. I'm saying that they were a self-defeating mess of an organization that wasted a great opportunity by thinking that good things simply just HAPPEN and bad things should never happen to warriors of truth. And they were utterly clueless at times that they turned down the "1%" that offered to support them because they were either incapable of receiving the support because their shit was in order or because they went all high and mighty on them by sticking to their "1 v 99" tagline over common sense.

It is not the case that change is made by taking checks from rich people. This sounds to me like it comes from a person who has no idea how difficult popular struggle is and how strong the forces against which it fights are. How comfy is the armchair you sit in? And what, exactly, do you do to effect change?

 

[ironichaos]

OWS/Tea Party really isn't a fair comparison to make. The Tea Party naturally struck a chord with any wealthy party who felt like not paying as much taxes, and benefited by having sympathizers in prominent positions in politics and in the media.

OWS, on the other hand, seemed to threaten nearly any party in any position of power (at least on the surface) and so it naturally drew nothing but criticism from the media and opposition from all angles.

I think you'd find it hard to argue that the Tea Party faced or overcame anything close to the levels of opposition that OWS was faced with as soon as it gained the slightest bit of traction.

This post deserves to be quoted (rather than being stuck at the bottom of the previous page). Occupy was standing up for those without money, without power. And like those without money, without power, it was quickly silenced by those with money, with power.

 

[radioheadrule83]

I didn't really like the way private security was mobilised against wiki leaks... And this sounds like similar action against OWS but with government complicity. Investigation is one thing if its in the name of safety, but plotting to dampen or derail civil movements is conspiratorial.

And things like this sound worrying indeed

banks sat down with FBI officials to pool information about OWS protesters harvested by private security; plans to crush Occupy events, planned for a month down the road, were made by the FBI – and offered to the representatives of the same organizations that the protests would target; and even threats of the assassination of OWS leaders by sniper fire – by whom? Where? – now remain redacted and undisclosed to those American citizens in danger, contrary to standard FBI practice to inform the person concerned when there is a threat against a political leader (p61).

 

[DY_nasty]

It is not the case that change is made by taking checks from rich people. This sounds to me like it comes from a person who has no idea how difficult popular struggle is and how strong the forces against which it fights are. How comfy is the armchair you sit in? And what, exactly, do you do to effect change?

I'm fucking black lol

Talk to me about a struggle after you volunteer in Detroit for 3 months. There are people on GAF that I worked with during Katrina relief. You want to pull cards, do it - but I'm not the one. The problems are simple to see with OWS. But no. There has to be a boogie man. Some reason it didn't work like it should've. Some big reason why. But don't look in the mirror. That can't possibly be it...

 

[PezDispenser]

I'm fucking black lol

Talk to me about a struggle after you volunteer in Detroit for 3 months. There are people on GAF that I worked with during Katrina relief. You want to pull cards, do it - but I'm not the one. The problems are simple to see with OWS. But no. There has to be a boogie man. Some reason it didn't work like it should've. Some big reason why. But don't look in the mirror. That can't possibly be it...

I agree that OWS had its problems when it came to organization and priorities, but it seems silly for you to say that those inner problems, and those alone, accounted 100% to its downfall. Stark opposition from quite literally every single major player in politics, the media, law enforcement... No, that couldn't have possibly contributed...

 

[DY_nasty]

I agree that OWS had its problems when it came to organization and priorities, but it seems silly for you to say that those inner problems, and those alone, accounted 100% to its downfall. Stark opposition from quite literally every single major player in politics, the media, law enforcement... No, that couldn't have possibly contributed...

What movement doesn't deal with that though?

That's the whole point of organizing.

 

[empty vessel]

I'm fucking black lol

Talk to me about a struggle after you volunteer in Detroit for 3 months. There are people on GAF that I worked with during Katrina relief. You want to pull cards, do it - but I'm not the one. The problems are simple to see with OWS. But no. There has to be a boogie man. Some reason it didn't work like it should've. Some big reason why. But don't look in the mirror. That can't possibly be it...

I don't know what being black has to do with it. And you seem to be confusing volunteer charity work with political struggle. These are not the same thing.

 

[DY_nasty]

I don't know what being black has to do with it. And you seem to be confusing volunteer charity work with political struggle.

Black people don't know about political struggle.

Okay. I'm done.

 

[PezDispenser]

What movement doesn't deal with that though?

That's the whole point of organizing.

Any movement that was started by any of the aforementioned major players.

See: The Tea Party, or anything else that has passed itself off as a "movement" anytime in the past 30 years.

 

[kame-sennin]

Black people don't know about political struggle.

Okay. I'm done.

I'm also black, I didn't know that made me an expert in political movements.

 

[empty vessel]

Black people don't know about political struggle.

Okay. I'm done.

Why would being black per se mean you know anything about political struggle? This isn't an argument about the daily life struggles of black people. It is specifically about political struggle: effecting political change through organization and action. And especially fundamental change to an established and entrenched order.

 

[DY_nasty]

I'm also black, I didn't know that made me an expert in political movements.

Now you're just talking to be talking lol

You really gonna sit there and tell me that organization was something to be shirked after all the shit that gets done in the black community - even after the civil rights movement? Come on. That's clown arguing. And it doesn't take an expert to see any of the shit I described. It takes a stubborn zealot to deny it though. I mean, the entire basis of this thread is looking for a boogie man. Nothing in that report is outside of protocol. "But they took private security information provided by the banks and compiled it with government sources! They were working as if someone could be killed!" Because its literally their job to gather all information sources possible in order to plan for any kind of scenario. That's all. They weren't plotting to kill people. Bomb anything. Unleash an airborne pathogen. Nothing. They were doing their job. That's it.

But still, you make that post after dude tries to pull someone's card on a damned internet forum about posting from an arm chair. Come on. Why even try to back that bullshit up?

Come on.

Why would being black per se mean you know anything about political struggle? This isn't an argument about the daily life struggles of black people. It is specifically about political struggle: effecting political change through organization and action. And especially fundamental change to an established and entrenched order.

If you have any questions regarding the ties between minorites and political AND private institutions, ask away.

Clearly you missed a couple classes.

 

[empty vessel]

I mean, the entire basis of this thread is looking for a boogie man. Nothing in that report is outside of protocol. "But they took private security information provided by the banks and compiled it with government sources! They were working as if someone could be killed!" Because its literally their job to gather all information sources possible in order to plan for any kind of scenario. That's all. They weren't plotting to kill people. Bomb anything. Unleash an airborne pathogen. Nothing. They were doing their job. That's it.

So it was just "their job" to harass and destroy the black power movement in the 1960s?

 

[DY_nasty]

So it was just "their job" to harass and destroy the black power movement in the 1960s?

You're really comparing OWS to the civil rights movement?

Really?

 

[ironichaos]

Now you're just talking to be talking lol

You really gonna sit there and tell me that organization was something to be shirked after all the shit that gets done in the black community - even after the civil rights movement? Come on. That's clown arguing. And it doesn't take an expert to see any of the shit I described. It takes a stubborn zealot to deny it though. I mean, the entire basis of this thread is looking for a boogie man. Nothing in that report is outside of protocol. "But they took private security information provided by the banks and compiled it with government sources! They were working as if someone could be killed!" Because its literally their job to gather all information sources possible in order to plan for any kind of scenario. That's all. They weren't plotting to kill people. Bomb anything. Unleash an airborne pathogen. Nothing. They were doing their job. That's it.

That's it... They weren't monitoring and strategizing ways to shutdown a peaceful group of people? Oh wait, they were. That's it. When did that become the job of the FBI?

 

[DY_nasty]

That's it... They weren't monitoring and strategizing ways to shutdown a peaceful group of people? Oh wait, they were. That's it. When did that become the job of the FBI?

Did you even read the article?

The F.B.I. was concerned that the movement would provide “an outlet for a lone offender exploiting the movement for reasons associated with general government dissatisfaction.”

Its called contingency. It happens all the time. Shit, they have snipers at the Superbowl.

 

[kame-sennin]

Now you're just talking to be talking lol

You really gonna sit there and tell me that organization was something to be shirked after all the shit that gets done in the black community - even after the civil rights movement? Come on. That's clown arguing. And it doesn't take an expert to see any of the shit I described. It takes a stubborn zealot to deny it though. I mean, the entire basis of this thread is looking for a boogie man. Nothing in that report is outside of protocol. "But they took private security information provided by the banks and compiled it with government sources! They were working as if someone could be killed!" Because its literally their job to gather all information sources possible in order to plan for any kind of scenario. That's all. They weren't plotting to kill people. Bomb anything. Unleash an airborne pathogen. Nothing. They were doing their job. That's it.

But still, you make that post after dude tries to pull someone's card on a damned internet forum about posting from an arm chair. Come on. Why even try to back that bullshit up?

Come on.

If you want to be real about it, as people of color, we should be more sympathetic to the shit OWS went through because of what's happened to us in our history. I know you hate this argument, but what happened to OWS is what was done to every black, latino, and asian group that emerged in the 60's.

 

[Baraka in the White House]

What movement doesn't deal with that though?

That's the whole point of organizing.

Yet you don't see anything amiss with comparing OWS's lack of success with the Tea Party? You're still not considering the circumstances surrounding each group beyond, "they're both movements!" or at most being very dismissive of them.

 

[ironichaos]

You're really comparing OWS to the civil rights movement?

Really?

OWS is an extension of the civil rights movement. It is about civil rights, about fighting the inequality that still exists in this country.

 

[DY_nasty]

If you want to be real about it, as people of color, we should be more sympathetic to the shit OWS went through because of what's happened to us in our history. I know you hate this argument, but what happened to OWS is what was done to every black, latino, and asian group that emerged in the 60's.

lol it factually is not

this shit is why people don't take ows seriously

edit: this is probably some of the most self righteous bullshit i'm probably gonna read all year long...

i'm done with this thread and thank you all for reminding me how fucking retarded ows was in the end.

 

[akira28]

You can compare how forces wanted to squelch, delegitimize, obstruct, or otherwise crush the OWS movement to how forces wanted to do the same to the different groups within the civil rights movement. Lots of people didn't want to hear what they had to say, didn't think they were doing it right, felt they were ruining the chances of others to represent the cause better, or felt they should wait to be heard instead of being so rude.

this shit is why people don't take ows seriously

actually I think it's because people tend to think of OWS as entitled white students sitting around a NYC park, beating on drums, instead of any greater struggle or any of the issues OWS tried to speak to.

 

[kame-sennin]

You're really comparing OWS to the civil rights movement?

Really?

OWS is an extension of the civil rights movement. It is about civil rights, about fighting the inequality that still exists in this country.

Yup

Occupy Wall Street puts spotlight on police stop-and-frisk tactics

 

[Baraka in the White House]

lol it factually is not

this shit is why people don't take ows seriously

edit: this is probably some of the most self righteous bullshit i'm probably gonna read all year long...

i'm done with this thread and thank you all for reminding me how fucking retarded ows was in the end.

Crass and dismissive to the end.

 

[Dreams-Visions]

Crass and dismissive to the end.

Some things need to be crassly dismissed.

 

[PezDispenser]

actually I think it's because people tend to think of OWS as entitled white students sitting around a NYC park, beating on drums, instead of any greater struggle or any of the issues OWS tried to speak to.

This hits the nail on the head pretty hard. Every OWS detractor I've ever listened to is always focused on some hypothetical protestor stereotype; what they wear, what phone they carry, how badly they smell, how they don't really know what they're arguing, etc. Detractors almost never have any kind of rebuttal to any of OWS' messages (that is if you don't count the tried-and-true "they don't even have a message!") and at worst, even agree with them fundamentally (as dy_nasty claimed to on a previous page).

It's basically a blanket ad hominem.

 

[akira28]

I tend to disagree with cointelpro type tactics, no matter who the targets are. Feds infiltrating peaceful groups, like they did back then, and do today is wrong, no matter that there's a set precedent, and that the FBI really does treat this like it's their job.

 

[lenovox1]

CBS This Morning had a report today on a young Greenwich Village couple that was stockpiling weaponry and collecting materials and downloading literature to create explosives. The couple claimed to be a part of Occupy Wall Street. Occupy Wall Street has vehemently denied those claims. It would be easier to find the URL for the article if I wasn't on a Symbian.

My point being, there will always be fringe crazies involved in political groups. It's only prudent for the FBI to maintain as close of an eye as necessary, just to ensure the safety of the public. Until we learn more about the FBI's involvment, it's hard to say that they were out of bounds based on the reports in the OP.

 

[akira28]

It would be easier to find the URL for the article if I wasn't on a Symbian.

My point being, there will always be fringe crazies involved in political groups. It's only prudent for the FBI to maintain as close of an eye as necessary, just to ensure the safety of the public. Until we learn more about the FBI involvment, it's hard to say that they were out of bounds based on the reports in the OP.

Sex toys and GAF, huh?

I think they said they had a sawed off shotgun, and ingredients for making explosives. How many cookie and coffee meetings did Agent Scully have to infiltrate to find these people, over a year later? If someone had been actually planning something, this would have been a bit late.

 

[Kosmokrator]

Despite how you may feel about OWS as a viable political movement, you have to admit that the FBI colluding with private entreprise against protesters leaves a sour taste in one's mouth.

That's not mentioning the fact that there is revolving door policy between government and the very same private entreprises, it casts suspicion on this relationship.

 

[kame-sennin]

I tend to disagree with cointelpro type tactics, no matter who the targets are. Feds infiltrating peaceful groups, like they did back then, and do today is wrong, no matter that there's a set precedent, and that the FBI really does treat this like it's their job.

This is their job. The FBI was created by Teddy Roosevelt largely to keep tabs on anarchist groups after President McKinley was assassinated.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fbi#History

 

[Half and half]

Kind of like OWS.

Ouch!

 

[DragonSworne]

I wouldn't be surprised if the FBI has been doing similar digging into Tea Party organizations.

Seems like they failed big time.

We have tea party idiots infesting all levels of government and destroying this country.

 

[ironichaos]

lol it factually is not

this shit is why people don't take ows seriously

edit: this is probably some of the most self righteous bullshit i'm probably gonna read all year long...

You can't compare protests of the past to those of today. Times have changed. Tactics have changed. There was no Internet back then where now word spreads with a single tweet. We will likely never again see police officers beating protesters, shooting them with water hoses, or just plain shooting them to the extent that was seen in the past. Sure, we got to see some protesters get a healthy dusting of pepper spray. But in the age of YouTube, police are inclined to show much more etiquette when dealing with the public.

i'm done with this thread and thank you all for reminding me how fucking retarded ows was in the end.

Funny. The majority of the homeless population is "retarded". This is a group of people who are marginalized by society and took refuge in the OWS encampments because they provided food, medicine and shelter. For once in this thread you managed to say something truthful.

 

[akira28]

This is their job. The FBI was created by Teddy Roosevelt largely to keep tabs on anarchist groups after President McKinley was assassinated.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fbi#History

I know they had an anarchist squad, but they were also there to keep track of foreign nationals traveling through our country, and also to interact with formal and informal intelligence and detective agencies, and basically anything else they were asked to do. There might have been a mandate that caused the spark, but they didn't stick to tracking anarchists at all.

The bureau's first official task was visiting and making surveys of the houses of prostitution in preparation for enforcing the "White Slave Traffic Act"

I'm not quite sure that infiltrating pacifist groups and drinking cocoa under false pretenses are what they're supposed to be about. Infiltrating the Klan? Hell yeah. Code Pink? Not so much.

 

[GrotesqueBeauty]

edit: this is probably some of the most self righteous bullshit i'm probably gonna read all year long...

Oh, you must not have read your own posts in this thread.

Anyway, the way Occupy has been and continues to be regarded is disconcerting. Like any free and open movement there are unsavory elements, but it also has faced systematic attempts to discredit and undermine it from within and without from the start. That's part of how you know it's actually meaningful. It's the first time in my adult life that I can recall a true groundswell for rights and not just proping up ideology, and one which hasn't been swiftly co-opted and repurposed in a corporate friendly manner.

Seems like the establishment media has fufilled its roll defining the tenor of the debate though. As long as people are convinced it's just some radical fringe political circus they won't participate and it'll have trouble keeping momentum. Damn shame too, because the core grievances it seeks to redress are relevant to the vast proportion of people who have been getting the shaft for decades. But hey, the intensifying information snoop-fest, secret collusion of goverment entities with private financial institutions, and overall growing use of militaristic police tactics on citizens is a funny joke because those dirty hipsters use iPhones, lol.

 

[Baraka in the White House]

Some things need to be crassly dismissed.

Oh?

 

[Bloodbeard]

Yeah.

There isn't anything unusual about this at all really. Especially when these people were having rallies in and around government areas.

I fucking hate when people try and equate OWS to some struggle or something....

Tag quote and that second quote is absolutely absurd. Good that you're just trolling.

I wouldn't be surprised if the FBI has been doing similar digging into Tea Party organizations.

Put in an FOI request in and find out.

 

[kame-sennin]

I know they had an anarchist squad, but they were also there to keep track of foreign nationals traveling through our country, and also to interact with formal and informal intelligence and detective agencies, and basically anything else they were asked to do. There might have been a mandate that caused the spark, but they didn't stick to tracking anarchists at all.



I'm not quite sure that infiltrating pacifist groups and drinking cocoa under false pretenses are what they're supposed to be about. Infiltrating the Klan? Hell yeah. Code Pink? Not so much.

I agree with your sentiment, I was simply pointing out that the FBI has a long history of targeting radical leftist groups and that this behavior is not an aberration, but standard practice.

 

[phosphor112]

I feel like Russia Today reported this some time ago.

I knoooow right?

 

[YoungHav]

That Tea Party success, Occupy fail argument is intellectually dishonest at best. The Koch Brothers (top 10 richest people on Earth) backed the Tea Party and the movement was supported by the elite.