Does finding the act of gay sex repulsive, make you prejudiced?

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Well said. And, balladofthewindfish, if you're still wondering why people are mad at you, maybe consider that while this may be some impersonal argument on the internet to you, to many people here (including myself) you're attacking them fundamentally as people. And yeah, that's a pretty shitty thing to do.

Check his post history. In less than 100 posts his "friend" has reasonable arguments against gay marriage, he has issues using the correct transgender pronouns, chimes in support of those against people making cakes for them there gays, and starts the anti sodomy crusade here.

In the circles where he runs, this is all ok.
 
I think you are suggesting that I have been dishonest all along, and that my anti-gay agenda is now surfacing. Sorry to disappoint you, but no, you are wrong. As I have said in other threads, I care very much about intellectual honesty.
And I honestly believed you and gave you the benefit of the doubt, but your recent post history--involving anything that happened to center around homosexuality or gay people--has started to change that. My position is flexible, however, and I am always ready to be convinced by evidence to the contrary. As it stands, you yourself have been suggesting that you were dishonest all along.
 
How about, finding two adults sharing a light peck shouldn't really be gross.

I said making out, not a light peck. Putting words in other peoples mouths makes it hard to have a conversation on a delicate topic.

Im not attracted to men just like Im not attracted to eating out of plastic spoons or scandinavian music.

If one of my gay friends is sharing an intimate moment with his couple while Im present I will experience it with joy because I enjoy my friends happiness and, like I said, I can get over myself.

But yeah, if Im browsing for porn and a thumbnail of some dude sucking dick or frenching another dude shows up, it grosses me out because Im not attracted to men.

Its really pretty simple. No hate, no disgust, no outcry. Some things stimulate me visually and some dont.
 
If two guys kissing makes you physically revolt, you might need to look in the mirror and ask yourself why.

Kissing is important to reproduction and evolutionarily beneficial because when two people kiss the cytomegalovirus in the saliva can be given to the female partner and it can immunise a potential foetus against it. Themoreyouknowetcetera

Watching two people kiss makes me want to look away. Regardless of what gender they are. I don't need to reflect on why either: I find the human body disgusting. I don't think this makes me a misanthrope.
 
Extreme distaste is not the same as discrimination.

And I used to know a gay guy that found heterosexual couples kissing disgusting, it's totally a thing.

These things are not black and white.
 
I said making out, not a light peck. Putting words in other peoples mouths makes it hard to have a conversation on a delicate topic.

Im not attracted to men just like Im not attracted to eating out of plastic spoons or scandinavian music.

If one of my gay friends is sharing an intimate moment with his couple while Im present I will experience it with joy because I enjoy my friends happiness and, like I said, I can get over myself.

But yeah, if Im browsing for porn and a thumbnail of some dude sucking dick or frenching another dude shows up, it grosses me out because Im not attracted to men.

Its really pretty simple. No hate, no disgust, no outcry. Some things stimulate me visually and some dont.

Errrr...
But...you just said it "grosses" you out to see two men performing oral sex or kissing each other.
"Gross" is an incredibly loaded word and means a lot more than "Meh...this just doesn't stimulate me.".
Using a word like "gross" or "repulsive" to describe same sex relations signals to me that one has more than a few socially conditioned issues that he/she should probably try to address in the future.
 
Not liking or not getting into anything is fine. Butts aren't for all people (but dudes should try at least one prostate orgasm).

It's when people try to justify it as not being natural or against the purpose of a body part and use a word from the Bible to justify that it's not natural..
 
Necromanti said:
The issue with your reasoning here is that you are assuming that an organ or mechanism exists for one sole purpose. "X is for Y" is a mindset that does not sufficiently explain our evolutionary history, or the function of, say, a single protein that can be involved in multiple dependent and/or independent processes depending on time and space. Take the mouth, for instance. Would you say that it is for eating? For communication? For assisting in respiration? Such reductionist reasoning is counter to what the evidence shows.

First, thank you for the first serious reply I have received. I'm not being reductionistic, though. Let me explain. Telos and general goal-directed behavior pervades evolution and biology - it is impossible, for example, to discuss what a heart is without explaining what it is for. There was a time when I denied this, when I was forced to deny this by the logic of naturalist mechanism, but I am slowly drifting away from that. Anyway, that is neither here nor there.

And yes, things can have more than one end. All that my analysis presupposes is that natural substances tend towards the realization of their ends (one or many, whatever) and that, from a functional and biological perspective, it does not make sense when these ends are frustrated, not just incidentally but in principle. So our mouths can realize all those listed ends, and even ends introduced by a human agent not foreseen by nature (such as, maybe, french kissing), but it's when those ends are intentionally frustrated from being realized when things don't make sense from a functional perspective.

Now, it is very true that perhaps some side-effects, considered beneficial, can result from going off the user manual, so to speak, but that does not make the sexual act for that thing. It is just a side-effect that happens to accompany it. If every time I had sex, my penis, oh, I dunnno, grew in size, that does not make the sexual act for that end. No, the end remains what I explained in my previous post. My penis growing would just be a corollary to what the end is. So while I think your analysis later in the post may be correct, it is too hasty in its reasoning and, thus, does not refute what I said. It is relevant in making other considerations, though, such as perhaps morality and the postiveness of homosexuality. Here, I reemphasize again that I am speaking from a functional point of view.
 
I said making out, not a light peck. Putting words in other peoples mouths makes it hard to have a conversation on a delicate topic.

Im not attracted to men just like Im not attracted to eating out of plastic spoons or scandinavian music.

If one of my gay friends is sharing an intimate moment with his couple while Im present I will experience it with joy because I enjoy my friends happiness and, like I said, I can get over myself.

But yeah, if Im browsing for porn and a thumbnail of some dude sucking dick or frenching another dude shows up, it grosses me out because Im not attracted to men.

Its really pretty simple. No hate, no disgust, no outcry. Some things stimulate me visually and some dont.

No one's talking about attraction. You said:

Seeing somebody eat food staight out of a can grosses me out and seeing dudes making out grosses me out.

So yes, you said "gross me out". That's different than not being attracted to something or having a neutral reaction to something, which I have when I see a straight couple kiss in a reasonable public setting.

Saying you're grossed out by two guys kissing is, well, gross.
 
Kissing is important to reproduction and evolutionarily beneficial because when two people kiss the cytomegalovirus in the saliva can be given to the female partner and it can immunise a potential foetus against it. Themoreyouknowetcetera

Watching two people kiss makes me want to look away. Regardless of what gender they are. I don't need to reflect on why either: I find the human body disgusting. I don't think this makes me a misanthrope.

lmao
 
Errrr...
But...you just said it "grosses" you out to see two men performing oral sex or kissing each other.
"Gross" is an incredibly loaded word and means a lot more than "Meh...this just doesn't stimulate me.".
Using a word like "gross" or "repulsive" to describe same sex relations signals to me that one has more than a few socially conditioned issues that he/she should probably try to address in the future.
Why do people keep coming back to this "conditioned" crap?

I don't want to watch some dude suck a dick, but I find it a little insulating to imply that the only reason this would be the case is that my simple mind has been brainwashed by society.

Yes, I find girls performing oral sex on each other attractive but don't find the same with guys. But maybe that's because I like performing oral sex on girls and not because I'm some easily led simpleton.
 
Kissing is important to reproduction and evolutionarily beneficial because when two people kiss the cytomegalovirus in the saliva can be given to the female partner and it can immunise a potential foetus against it. Themoreyouknowetcetera

Watching two people kiss makes me want to look away. Regardless of what gender they are. I don't need to reflect on why either: I find the human body disgusting. I don't think this makes me a misanthrope.

What do you do when people kiss in porn or movies? I have a hard time believing that anyone would find all types of kissing to be make you "want to look away."

Why do people keep coming back to this "conditioned" crap?

I don't want to watch some dude suck a dick, but I find it a little insulating to imply that the only reason this would be the case is that my simple mind has been brainwashed by society.

Yes, I find girls performing oral sex on each other attractive but don't find the same with guys. But maybe that's because I like performing oral sex on girls and not because I'm some easily led simpleton.

He's talking about two guys kissing.
 
I think you are suggesting that I have been dishonest all along, and that my anti-gay agenda is now surfacing. Sorry to disappoint you, but no, you are wrong. As I have said in other threads, I care very much about intellectual honesty. I am pro-abortion, but I acknowledge the scientific fact that a new human life begins at conception. When I pointed that out to pro-choicers who deny the plain science, there was a similar questioning of my motives and allegiances. I am not used to this in the circles that I run, that is frivolous ad hominem that, even if true, distracted from the claims and arguments, so there is no point in even raising them unless you are sophist. I am not used to these drive-by posts where people think its intellectually respectable to just make assertions. In the circles where I run, that shit would get you pretty excluded rather quickly.

So just because I don't preface my posts with saying "Hey, guys, I am really on your side, but there's no need to be fanboys about this," doesn't mean I'm secretly "One of them." Now... onto the rest of the post (I thought I would get this out of the way first).

arent u the guy whos friend is against same sex marriage and can't explain why because his philosophy is totally unexplainable and you came into the queer thread to ask what we, queer people, thought of you remaining friends with him?
 
arent u the guy whos friend is against same sex marriage and can't explain why because his philosophy is totally unexplainable and you came into the queer thread to ask what we, queer people, thought of you remaining friends with him?

See my post at 453. IT'S WORSE THAN THAT.
 
He's talking about two guys kissing.
My point still stands.

Implying that the reason you don't want to see that is because you've been conditioned by society rather than a base sexual preference based on simple biology is not only dumb, it's insulting.
 
First, thank you for the first serious reply I have received. I'm not being reductionistic, though. Let me explain. Telos and general goal-directed behavior pervades evolution and biology - it is impossible, for example, to discuss what a heart is without explaining what it is for. There was a time when I denied this, when I was forced to deny this by the logic of naturalist mechanism, but I am slowly drifting away from that. Anyway, that is neither here nor there.

And yes, things can have more than one end. All that my analysis presupposes is that natural substances tend towards the realization of their ends (one or many, whatever) and that, from a functional and biological perspective, it does not make sense when these ends are frustrated, not just incidentally but in principle. So our mouths can realize all those listed ends, and even ends introduced by a human agent not foreseen by nature (such as, maybe, french kissing), but it's when those ends are intentionally frustrated from being realized when things don't make sense from a functional perspective.

Now, it is very true that perhaps some side-effects, considered beneficial, can result from going off the user manual, so to speak, but that does not make the sexual act for that thing. It is just a side-effect that happens to accompany it. If every time I had sex, my penis, oh, I dunnno, grew in size, that does not make the sexual act for that end. No, the end remains what I explained in my previous post. My penis growing would just be a corollary to what the end is. So while I think your analysis later in the post may be correct, it is too hasty in its reasoning and, thus, does not refute what I said. It is relevant in making other considerations, though, such as perhaps morality and the postiveness of homosexuality. Here, I reemphasize again that I am speaking from a functional point of view.

This "functional/biological perspective" is irrelevant.

Morality is not derived from function.

Despite your attempts at flowery language, your argument is the same bigoted nonsense we've all heard before: it's an attempt to grasp at some irrelevant criteria by which you can disqualify gay sexuality.

My point still stands.

Implying that the reason you don't want to see that is because you've been conditioned by society rather than a base sexual preference based on simple biology is not only dumb, it's insulting.

Your base sexual preference shouldn't affect your ability to deal with the existence of other sexualities.
 
You want to know what else is insulting? Feeling unable to kiss a partner in public without practically hearing a bunch of straight guys' sphincters clench.
 
Why do people keep coming back to this "conditioned" crap?

I don't want to watch some dude suck a dick, but I find it a little insulating to imply that the only reason this would be the case is that my simple mind has been brainwashed by society.

Yes, I find girls performing oral sex on each other attractive but don't find the same with guys. But maybe that's because I like performing oral sex on girls and not because I'm some easily led simpleton.

lol
Calm down gurl.
We're all socially conditioned by our society to view certain things in a specific light or to act a certain way. Especially when we're impressionable young children or teenagers.
Being socially conditioned doesn't make you a simpleton; it just makes you a damn human being.

I don't believe that there is any kind of credible peer reviewed evidence that states that straight guys are grossed out by gay sex because of their biology.
:/
Again, if you just look at how most straight girls view lesbian sex you'll see that's it's probably not a biological thing.
 
But yeah, if Im browsing for porn and a thumbnail of some dude sucking dick or frenching another dude shows up, it grosses me out because Im not attracted to men.

Its really pretty simple. No hate, no disgust, no outcry. Some things stimulate me visually and some dont.
Still, there is some level of immaturity to the disgust and a built-in negative response that seems to be supported by a thinly veiled reason of "because I'm not attracted to it."

The opposite of attraction doesn't have to be complete and utter disgust.

For example, I may freak out a bit if I see a sudden thumbnail of a vagina or what have you. However, I think to myself, "Well, that's something that I don't want to see." Then I move on.

I don't respond with a negative feeling of disgust or think, "Gross!"

Initially, I was a little grossed out by that as a teen accidentally viewing straight stuff, but I moved on quickly. My prejudice, to use the OP's word, didn't last very long.

Today, I don't fight straight or lesbian or some other kind of alternate sex repulsive. It's just not for me.

Vaginas exist; men suck dick, too. Why is anyone freaking out about it?

Everyone just needs to try to relax.

I guess that's my point. :P
 
This "functional/biological perspective" is irrelevant.

Morality is not derived from function.

He continues to ignore the fact that people are not naturally repulsed by other forms of "sodomy" like oral sex, even though the aren't biologically or functionally productive.

Because of reasons.
 
No way am I leading you by the hand through something that is on a level as bad as "but I have black friends" or any other simpleton argument. Google it for your damn self.

You've trolled us long enough.

I missed this. Wait, were you talking to me? I cannot even figure out what you had in mind, what words of mine you were responding to.

krypt0nian said:
Clearly their straight animal brethren look down upon them from a biological and functional standpoint too, Dolphin. You know, instinctually because of reasons.

If you agree with ApatheticDolphin's missing-the-mark reply, you are doing it wrong. Read my takedown of his misunderstanding.

krypt0nian said:
You really should be ashamed.

You know what I love about logic? It is ruthless, and it's the ultimate judo, turning-it-back on your opponents art. Why? Because attacking me is fully compatible with me being right. You have done jack shit to show me why I'm wrong, and I've been nothing but respectful in letting you speak for yourself and offering you chances to prove me wrong. Ad hominem, it's a logical fallacy! So are you going to be spitting these all night?

krypt0nian said:
This is what I mean. This natural and functional argument has been dissected and ripped apart ad infinitum over the years. But he expects us to argue it again because he thinks he's come up with it and cannot google.

Haha, the argument from natural law is an Aristotelian argument. It is a damn hard one to refute since anyone who is a realist about anything is lead inevitably to its conclusions. Problem is, philosophical philistines know jack shit about philosophy and horribly mangle it. A true Aristotelian would rip you to shreds, kyrpt0nian, and it's guys like me who make the case against realism that keep them at bay. Your shitty and juvenile knocks against it just give them fodder. And, moreover, it's guys like you that have made me sympathize with the realists and have led me closer to their side, even though I utterly reject their moral conclusions right now.

Anyway, that aside, I am not making that argument here. This just proves you are not really reading. What I am doing is just saying from a functional perspective, anal sex, well, is off the user manual.

krypt0nian said:
Check his post history. In less than 100 posts his "friend" has reasonable arguments against gay marriage, he has issues using the correct transgender pronouns, chimes in support of those against people making cakes for them there gays, and starts the anti sodomy crusade here.

In the circles where he runs, this is all ok.

Man, when are you going to stop making shit up? Haha, you even interpreted my question about preferred pronouns as being transphobic! Logical precision, you need to get it! So you continue to make assertions, talk about me in the third person in a derisive manner - at this point, I am just responding you only because none of you other guys have the integrity to call him out on his shit.
 
My point still stands.

Implying that the reason you don't want to see that is because you've been conditioned by society rather than a base sexual preference based on simple biology is not only dumb, it's insulting.

I don't think the answer boils down to "I'm straight, that's shit's gross, whatever man, I don't want to see two dudes kiss." Gay people are conditioned from birth to see images of straight people kissing all the time in every form of media. If you were to take your average gay person and show them a 5-10 second video of straight couples kissing, I doubt many of them would call their reaction "gross" because all of these people have been conditioned that this is normal human behavior, even if they wouldn't jack off to the couple's sex tape.
 
Since you've been exposed all of that quoting was a lovely waste, dear.

All that noted logic turned to dust. Feels good. And a true Aristotelian would be as basic as you. Full of year one philosophy and logics, thinking it means anything in this real world of ours. But keep reaching for the stars!
 
What do you do when people kiss in porn or movies? I have a hard time believing that anyone would find all types of kissing to be make you "want to look away."

I can't think of many films i've seen with extended make-outs. Regardless film is different. Seeing shit covered walls in Hunger or Michael Fassbender and Carey Mulligan nude in Shame or Lupita Nyong'o being whipped in 12 Years a Slave is a lot different than seeing them in real life.

Not to mention when two people make out there's the discomfort of knowing something physical and intimate is happening. I always think "Shit, they don't want me watching this" even though the people kissing probably don't give a shit.
 
lol
Calm down gurl.
We're all socially conditioned by our society to view certain things in a specific light or to act a certain way. Especially when we're impressionable young children or teenagers.
Being socially conditioned doesn't make you a simpleton; it just makes you a damn human being.

I don't believe that there is any kind of credible peer reviewed evidence that states that straight guys are grossed out by gay sex because of their biology.
:/
Again, if you just look at how most straight girls view lesbian sex you'll see that's it's probably not a biological thing.

I don't think the answer boils down to "I'm straight, that's shit's gross, whatever man, I don't want to see two dudes kiss." Gay people are conditioned from birth to see images of straight people kissing all the time in every form of media. If you were to take your average gay person and show them a 5-10 second video of straight couples kissing, I doubt many of them would call their reaction "gross" because all of these people have been conditioned that this is normal human behavior, even if they wouldn't jack off to the couple's sex tape.
Both good points, maybe I was being a little touchy about the conditioned thing, but it initially seemed a little dismissive. But you both make a compelling argument.

Fair enough.
 
Anyway, that aside, I am not making that argument here. This just proves you are not really reading. What I am doing is just saying from a functional perspective, anal sex, well, is off the user manual.

what kind of non-nerd gives a fuck about functional lmao

have u seen the shit straight couples get into

jesus imagine being this sheltered

imagine getting banned
 
what kind of non-nerd gives a fuck about functional lmao

have u seen the shit straight couples get into

jesus imagine being this sheltered

imagine straight people

He's like the Sheldon of cut rate philosophies. Wait til the real world shows him they are thought games and worthless.
 
I can't think of many films i've seen with extended make-outs. Regardless film is different. Seeing shit covered walls in Hunger or Michael Fassbender and Carey Mulligan nude in Shame or Lupita Nyong'o being whipped in 12 Years a Slave is a lot different than seeing them in real life.

Not to mention when two people make out there's the discomfort of knowing something physical and intimate is happening. I always think "Shit, they don't want me watching this" even though the people kissing probably don't give a shit.
Bloody hell, I never even considered this.

Also, Carey Mulligan gets nekkid in Shame?

Cool.

This thread is an eye opener...

:P
 
I can't think of many films i've seen with extended make-outs. Regardless film is different. Seeing shit covered walls in Hunger or Michael Fassbender and Carey Mulligan nude in Shame or Lupita Nyong'o being whipped in 12 Years a Slave is a lot different than seeing them in real life.

Not to mention when two people make out there's the discomfort of knowing something physical and intimate is happening. I always think "Shit, they don't want me watching this" even though the people kissing probably don't give a shit.

Well, are we talking full on-makeout where the couple's getting ready for second base action and they're looking for the quickest way to get out of this bar… or kissing? There's a really, really wide spectrum. Sure, I get the pre-sex full on animalistic make out to be something that could make you uncomfortable. But if we're talking about a kiss that a reasonable couple would do in public? Like something you might see at a mall? Really?
 
Yeah I was definitely talking more along the lines of face-eating makeouts and not two people kissing on the lips for a second.
 
First, thank you for the first serious reply I have received. I'm not being reductionistic, though. Let me explain. Telos and general goal-directed behavior pervades evolution and biology - it is impossible, for example, to discuss what a heart is without explaining what it is for. There was a time when I denied this, when I was forced to deny this by the logic of naturalist mechanism, but I am slowly drifting away from that. Anyway, that is neither here nor there.

And yes, things can have more than one end. All that my analysis presupposes is that natural substances tend towards the realization of their ends (one or many, whatever) and that, from a functional and biological perspective, it does not make sense when these ends are frustrated, not just incidentally but in principle. So our mouths can realize all those listed ends, and even ends introduced by a human agent not foreseen by nature (such as, maybe, french kissing), but it's when those ends are intentionally frustrated from being realized when things don't make sense from a functional perspective.

Now, it is very true that perhaps some side-effects, considered beneficial, can result from going off the user manual, so to speak, but that does not make the sexual act for that thing. It is just a side-effect that happens to accompany it. If every time I had sex, my penis, oh, I dunnno, grew in size, that does not make the sexual act for that end. No, the end remains what I explained in my previous post. My penis growing would just be a corollary to what the end is. So while I think your analysis later in the post may be correct, it is too hasty in its reasoning and, thus, does not refute what I said. It is relevant in making other considerations, though, such as perhaps morality and the postiveness of homosexuality. Here, I reemphasize again that I am speaking from a functional point of view.
Attributing goal-directed behavior is something we tend to avoid doing in biology, though, as we cannot ever empirically deduce what the purpose of a molecule existing or performing a function may be (and indeed, the premise itself assumes that such a purpose exists, which is more in the realm of philosophy or religion rather than science). So from a scientific perspective, at least, we would be asking what role the heart has in a process, or what would functions would change if we changed some aspect of the physiology or chemistry involving the heart, rather than asking what it is for.

Ends are not frustrated, because following the reasoning above, there is no one single end. Diversity is at the heart of biology, for without it, extinction would surely follow. Adaptability helps assimilate and respond to stimuli in the environment, and allow a reaction accordingly. An action performed by a human that has no deleterious effects on the survival and propagation of the species in the long run would not be a target to be selected against (and phased out) by evolution.

Humans in particular are good at adapting to (or changing) their environments and behaviors in response, including the use of tools that we didn't expressly evolve organs to utilize, but it represents the diversity of behavior possible by us that, if not deleterious, would not necessarily be selected against by evolution. But being able to respond to the unseen is part of what makes us successful. A tool like a computer, for example, has multiple potential uses and functions, but to define a strict sense of what its functions should be rather than what they have shown to be capable of (and that has shown to have benefits in some regard) would require an external source of morality applied to it, rather than an intrinsic one.

These "side effects" as you may call them are just part of what makes evolution so fascinating, but it is easy to fall prey to fallacies of forcing biological facts through, as you said yourself, interpretations that may distort facts to serve a philosophy. The penis isn't simply a reproductive organ, but is also, as you know, a path for the body to excrete waste. I see the diversity of function as the ability to respond to a multitude of needs in different environments in the same way that our hunter-gatherer forbears were able to switch between plant and meat-based diets depending on availability.

There are multiple, valid approaches and uses of a single "tool", and culture alone shows that human behavior is full of diversity, encompassing the different ways we eat, grieve, or even perceive and define color in our environment. Masturbation, oral sex, anal sex, vaginal sex, and intercrural sex are all representative of the diversity of behavioral expression possible involving our sex organs, used to relieve stress, used socially, or to procreate, and so on. From a biological perspective, humans fully support the ability to be bisexual without deviating from a set function, as one doesn't exist. Those that make the claim that one does would have a heck of a time trying to support that argument without referring to an external source of morality, and also make the case as to why it should be considered over others. It isn't always as simple as the chicken preceding the egg.

EDIT: Y'ALL BANNED HIM!?
 
Attributing goal-directed behavior is something we tend to avoid doing in biology, though, as we cannot ever empirically deduce what the purpose of a molecule existing or performing a function may be (and indeed, the premise itself assumes that such a purpose exists, which is more in the realm of philosophy or religion rather than science). So from a scientific perspective, at least, we would be asking what role the heart has in a process, or what would functions would change if we changed some aspect of the physiology or chemistry involving the heart, rather than asking what it is for.

Ends are not frustrated, because following the reasoning above, there is no one single end. Diversity is at the heart of biology, for without it, extinction would surely follow. Adaptability helps assimilate and respond to stimuli in the environment, and allow a reaction accordingly. An action performed by a human that has no deleterious effects on the survival and propagation of the species in the long run would not be a target to be selected against (and phased out) by evolution.

Humans in particular are good at adapting to (or changing) their environments and behaviors in response, including the use of tools that we didn't expressly evolve organs to utilize, but it represents the diversity of behavior possible by us that, if not deleterious, would not necessarily be selected against by evolution. But being able to respond to the unseen is part of what makes us successful. A tool like a computer, for example, has multiple potential uses and functions, but to define a strict sense of what its functions should be rather than what they have shown to be capable of (and that has shown to have benefits in some regard) would require an external source of morality applied to it, rather than an intrinsic one.

These "side effects" as you may call them are just part of what makes evolution so fascinating, but it is easy to fall prey to fallacies of forcing biological facts through, as you said yourself, interpretations that may distort facts to serve a philosophy. The penis isn't simply a reproductive organ, but is also, as you know, a path for the body to excrete waste. I see the diversity of function as the ability to respond to a multitude of needs in different environments in the same way that our hunter-gatherer forbears were able to switch between plant and meat-based diets depending on availability.

There are multiple, valid approaches and uses of a single "tool", and culture alone shows that human behavior is full of diversity, encompassing the different ways we eat, grieve, or even perceive and define color in our environment. Masturbation, oral sex, anal sex, vaginal sex, and intercrural sex are all representative of the diversity of behavioral expression possible involving our sex organs, used to relieve stress, used socially, or to procreate, and so on. From a biological perspective, humans fully support the ability to be bisexual without deviating from a set function, as one doesn't exist. Those that make the claim that one does would have a heck of a time trying to support that argument without referring to an external source of morality, and also make the case as to why it should be considered over others. It isn't always as simple as the chicken preceding the egg.

We need to save this beautiful post for the future. Bravo.

God damn it.
 
Attributing goal-directed behavior is something we tend to avoid doing in biology, though, as we cannot ever empirically deduce what the purpose of a molecule existing or performing a function may be (and indeed, the premise itself assumes that such a purpose exists, which is more in the realm of philosophy or religion rather than science). So from a scientific perspective, at least, we would be asking what role the heart has in a process, or what would functions would change if we changed some aspect of the physiology or chemistry involving the heart, rather than asking what it is for.

Ends are not frustrated, because following the reasoning above, there is no one single end. Diversity is at the heart of biology, for without it, extinction would surely follow. Adaptability helps assimilate and respond to stimuli in the environment, and allow a reaction accordingly. An action performed by a human that has no deleterious effects on the survival and propagation of the species in the long run would not be a target to be selected against (and phased out) by evolution.

Humans in particular are good at adapting to (or changing) their environments and behaviors in response, including the use of tools that we didn't expressly evolve organs to utilize, but it represents the diversity of behavior possible by us that, if not deleterious, would not necessarily be selected against by evolution. But being able to respond to the unseen is part of what makes us successful. A tool like a computer, for example, has multiple potential uses and functions, but to define a strict sense of what its functions should be rather than what they have shown to be capable of (and that has shown to have benefits in some regard) would require an external source of morality applied to it, rather than an intrinsic one.

These "side effects" as you may call them are just part of what makes evolution so fascinating, but it is easy to fall prey to fallacies of forcing biological facts through, as you said yourself, interpretations that may distort facts to serve a philosophy. The penis isn't simply a reproductive organ, but is also, as you know, a path for the body to excrete waste. I see the diversity of function as the ability to respond to a multitude of needs in different environments in the same way that our hunter-gatherer forbears were able to switch between plant and meat-based diets depending on availability.

There are multiple, valid approaches and uses of a single "tool", and culture alone shows that human behavior is full of diversity, encompassing the different ways we eat, grieve, or even perceive and define color in our environment. Masturbation, oral sex, anal sex, vaginal sex, and intercrural sex are all representative of the diversity of behavioral expression possible involving our sex organs, used to relieve stress, used socially, or to procreate, and so on. From a biological perspective, humans fully support the ability to be bisexual without deviating from a set function, as one doesn't exist. Those that make the claim that one does would have a heck of a time trying to support that argument without referring to an external source of morality, and also make the case as to why it should be considered over others. It isn't always as simple as the chicken preceding the egg.

EDIT: Y'ALL BANNED HIM!?

Reading this was amazing, and the edit made it even better. I'm so sorry.
 
I just wanted to drop by to express my deep and cutting objection to balladofthewindfish's being banned. Based on the empirically Socratiteloplatonic reductionist law, I wager that his pure entertainment factor outweighed any other considerations.

oh god i'm still dying
 
Haha, the argument from natural law is an Aristotelian argument. It is a damn hard one to refute since anyone who is a realist about anything is lead inevitably to its conclusions. Problem is, philosophical philistines know jack shit about philosophy and horribly mangle it. A true Aristotelian would rip you to shreds, kyrpt0nian, and it's guys like me who make the case against realism that keep them at bay. Your shitty and juvenile knocks against it just give them fodder. And, moreover, it's guys like you that have made me sympathize with the realists and have led me closer to their side, even though I utterly reject their moral conclusions right now.


I'm still astounded that someone actually wrote this and believes it has meaning. It's like pure crazy town that anyone is out there wasting their faculties, and pretending that realists and (shudder) true Aristotelian make a fucking difference. Philosophy is pure tripe.

Necromanti, I love you.
 
You got it backwards. People tends to rationalize things that viscerally disgust them. "It makes me feel yucky so there's surely something wrong / inmoral with it!". You can see that kind of "logic" behind many, many conservative / prunish instances. See also: why violent videogames are bad, why scantly dressed girls are bad, and a long etc of arguments that are nothing but attempts at justifying "but it makes me feel queasy!".

People find repulsive a huge array of things for no rational reason or whatsoever, let it be a perfectly heterosexual bukake, gay sex, needles, or Steve Buscemi's eyes. The healthy thing to do is trying to have a little tad of instrospection and realize that that's an irrational feeling born out of your instinct and just move on rather than trying to fit it into some kind of self-agrandizing grander moral crusade because it makes you feel bad and you need to find a villain and an evil intention to blame it for your uneasyness.
 
Should I have waited longer to PM a mod? =(
Nope. :) You did what should have been done. Plus, now I can blackmail a certain mod into giving me immunity when needs be... ;)

Just kidding.

It was fun while it lasted.
We need to save this beautiful post for the future. Bravo.
Necromanti, I love you.
Reading this was amazing, and the edit made it even better. I'm so sorry.
Y'all are too sweet. Size isn't everything.
I literally already forgot what I wrote anyway. I hope it was in English!
 
Wow, Necromanti's post was beautiful.
I just wanted to drop by to express my deep and cutting objection to balladofthewindfish's being banned. Based on the empirically Socratiteloplatonic reductionist law, I wager that his pure entertainment factor outweighed any other considerations.
This doesn't even make sense.
Should I have waited longer to PM a mod? =(
You told on him?

Dude...
 
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