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[thespot84]

http://atlantablackstar.com/2014/04/09/5-neil-degrasse-tyson-quotes-cosmos-get-side-eye/

Having grown up in a euro-centric society and being taught euro-centric history in my euro-centric school I legitimately did not know there was controversy regarding the accuracy of discoveries and underpinnings of modern science. Newton discovered gravity, galileo made the first telescope, watson discovered the double helix of DNA while on LSD...it was all so simple.

But now I read that the ancient Egyptians had telescopes and that understanding star and weather patterns = science! I'm honestly skeptical about the conclusions drawn the article and downright incredulous regarding the claims made in facebook comments, but in all serious: am I missing something? Are there serious contributions to science from ancient civilizations that are overlooked because they were not white? Educate me GAF

Edit: the first page:

Dr. Neil deGrasse Tyson is a world-renowned astrophysicist who has won the admiration of the scientific community, and laymen alike, with his inviting and sometimes entertaining personality. People of all ages and ethnic backgrounds are taking interest in learning because Tyson has introduced science into pop culture. On March 9, 2014, Tyson extended his knowledge to television audiences by hosting the first episode of “Cosmos: A Spacetime Odyssey”, which is produced by Seth McFarlane (creator of “Family Guy,” “The Cleveland Show” and “American Dad&#8221 and distributed by 20th Century Fox. The concept of the show is a follow-up to the “Cosmos: A Personal Journey,” produced by Tyson’s mentor and friend, the late Carl Sagan.
Tyson is making history with every word he writes and speaks. However, he falls short when it comes to delivering historical information on his series. The narrative driving “Cosmos: A Spacetime Odyssey” is presented from a Western, Euro-centric perspective. Some statements made on the show are historically inaccurate. Other statements clearly place importance on European contributions to science while excluding discoveries made by other cultures. Racial and cultural inclusion within science history would make the information he provides on “Cosmos” accurate and empowering to all.

 

[Concept17]

The article seems really defensive...

I'm not familiar with Egyptians, but if nothing else, we can't say specifically who, when, where, or how people 5,000 years ago supposedly already knew some of this stuff, nor was it suddenly common knowledge to all? What do we know other than a few artifacts?

 

[Jasup]

But ancient Egyptian culture is one of the roots of modern European (or should I say western) culture.

 

[Aaron]

We know that ancient Egyptians didn't have anything close to the technology to produce the lenses in Galileo's telescope.

 

[saunderez]

The article seems really defensive...

I'm not familiar with Egyptians, but if nothing else, we can't say specifically who, when, where, or how people 5,000 years ago supposedly already knew some of this stuff, nor was it suddenly common knowledge to all? What do we know other than a few artifacts?

This. Lots of knowledge has been lost over the ages, only for the exact same discoveries to happen again later on, and be built on due to the time being more conducive to scientific discovery. At the end of the day if it wasn't written down, we probably don't know what truly happened and have to extrapolate from artifacts.

 

[thespot84]

The article seems really defensive...

I'm not familiar with Egyptians, but if nothing else, we can't say specifically who, when, where, or how people 5,000 years ago supposedly already knew some of this stuff, nor was it suddenly common knowledge to all? What do we know other than a few artifacts?

The sources provided in the article indicated that the Egyptians did indeed have a calendar, and nothing else.

What I find difficult to believe is that contributions were made to science, which invariably lead to engineering, technology, and eventually profit, yet were ignored by white people because of ethnocentrism. Some of the commentors even claim that the egyptians had a profound knowledge of the workings of nature that were lost to history, yet somehow we still know they knew it.

 

[alekth]

Some of it seems like legitimate criticism, especially where his statements are very broad, like the one about astronomy being 400 years old.

I'm not sure though in stuff like "other cultured knew the Earth went around the sun". They might have had some model about that being so, but guessing isn't knowing. I'd be interested to see what actual knowledge there was about it. Persians did a lot of astronomy until 15th century or so, and afaik, they challenged the geocentric view, but more in the line of seeing problems with it rather than proposing and demonstrating a working heliocentric one.

 

[thespot84]

Some of it seems like legitimate criticism, especially where his statements are very broad, like the one about astronomy being 400 years old.

Is that really out of line, though? On the assumption that no telescopes existed prior to galileo, knowledge of the fact that the stars and planets were anything other than moving dots in the night sky would seem hard to come by. Greek philosophers philosophized about the universe, sure, and even its possibly infinite nature, but with no connection that I'm aware of to the study of the stars themselves.

 

[Mael]

White people ignoring discoveries made by other older civilisations to only claim the discovery later?
That seems like a very racist PoV.
And blah I'm not reading the whole articles, I mean 5 paragraphs on 5 pages?
They're that desperate for clicks?

 

[alekth]

Is that really out of line, though? On the assumption that no telescopes existed prior to galileo, knowledge of the fact that the stars and planets were anything other than moving dots in the night sky would seem hard to come by. Greek philosophers philosophized about the universe, sure, and even its possibly infinite nature, but with no connection that I'm aware of to the study of the stars themselves.

I'm thinking more in line with the Persians really, who seem to have understood roughly what these things are, and derived systematic knowledge out of it. wiki link

For sure they didn't get as far as they would have, had they had telescopes, but any way I look at it, they were astronomers, not so much philosophers like the Greek.

 

[KarmaCow]

Is that really out of line, though? On the assumption that no telescopes existed prior to galileo, knowledge of the fact that the stars and planets were anything other than moving dots in the night sky would seem hard to come by. Greek philosophers philosophized about the universe, sure, and even its possibly infinite nature, but with no connection that I'm aware of to the study of the stars themselves.

Study of the stars themselves is hardly 400 years old either. If you want to discount ancient astronomers as astronomers on the basis of that they didn't know they were giant fusion reactors, Galileo isn't that knowledgeable either.

 

[Jay Sosa]

But now I read that the ancient Egyptians had telescopes and that understanding star and weather patterns = science! I'm honestly skeptical about the conclusions drawn the article and downright incredulous regarding the claims made in facebook comments, but in all serious: am I missing something? Are there serious contributions to science from ancient civilizations that are overlooked because they were not white? Educate me GAF

Obviously.

Spoiler

Everything and everyone is racist.

 

[Fallout-NL]

I don't know, it seems a little exaggerated. The last episode also mentions how the environment of turn of the first millennium Islamic culture was conducive to a lot of important scientific thought (before the Mongols killed pretty much everyone there).

 

[bobbytkc]

The modern view of our acquired knowledge of the math and sciences is Eurocentric in nature, because of the socio-economic dominance of the european nations in recent history. This is natural, if regrettable.

I know not of other culture's contributions, but the Chinese, for instance, were the first, or one of the earliest in any case, to have developed a binary system, a decimal system, the concept of negative numbers, the method of gaussian elimination among others. The oldest known proof of the Pythagoras' theorem is also Chinese in origin.

 

[kess]

The Ancient Egyptians Studied The Stars 5000 Years Before Europeans

The writer is so wound up on pushing a narrative that he ignores sites like the Goseck circle and Stonehenge. The Pyramids are a lot more sophisticated, obviously, but it's not like Europe was completely ignorant in the duration. By the Hellenistic era, all that was known, and more.

 

[Devolution]

Well there's a solid difference between knowledge that was saved and built on versus ancient civilizations having advances that were lost to time, ruin and cultural shifts.

 

[RaikuHebi]

The latest episode talked about Chinese and Arabs.

Are there serious contributions to science from ancient civilizations that are overlooked because they were not white?

If we want to get technical then not all Ancient Greeks nor Romans were White. Look at their populations today, much diversity.

 

[kess]

Sun Ra knows the score:

 

[thespot84]

Study of the stars themselves is hardly 400 years old either. If you want to discount ancient astronomers as astronomers on the basis of that they didn't know they were giant fusion reactors, Galileo isn't that knowledgeable either.

I'm not discounting them, the theories they proposed without the aid of telescopes are remarkable. The fact that common belief held that the stats were contained on a sphere 65 million miles in diameter (an order of magnitude smaller than the solar system) makes me think that Tyson is right. Astronomy and cosmology as we know it was not born until the telescope, even as the galileo and the like had lots of prior work to go off of.

Sun Ra knows the score:

The ancient egyptions spoke German?

Spoiler

who is sun ra

 

[Aaron]

There's also the serious problem of taking what we consider perfectly logical today for granted, and forgetting that ancient cultures didn't perceive the world in anything close to the way we do today.

 

[xenist]

Easily refuted by watching the show. Where scientific accomplishements relevant to the show's subjects come from outside Europe they are also presented.

And anyway it's about the scientific method. Democritus may have theorized the existence of the atom millenia before everyone else but for him it was an intellectual exercise rather than a conclusion arrived to via the scientific method. Ancient astronomers may have catalogued stars and eclipses but for them it was mere timekeeping.

 

[kess]

The ancient egyptions spoke German?

Spoiler

who is sun ra

Spoiler

Sun Ra, Ambassador of the Intergalactic Regions of the Council of Outer Space

aka Herman Blount, jazz musician

 

[Jay Sosa]

The latest episode talked about Chinese and Arabs.



If we want to get technical then not all Ancient Greeks nor Romans were White. Look at their populations today, much diversity.

They just have a nice tan, it's quite sunny there.

 

[lastplayed]

The ancient egyptions spoke German?

Spoiler

who is sun ra

A-a-a-are you German?

 

[neorej]

I don't watch the show as often as I should, but it seems to present scientific discoveries from the Persians and Chinese. IIRC they even touched on the astrological and mathematical discoveries by the Mayans.

 

[Atolm]

It's true though. Modern astronomy is only 400 years old. It's like psychology, you can trace it back to Plato and Aristoteles, but every psychologist on the planet will tell you that modern, scientific Psychology was born in the 1870's.

 

[RaikuHebi]

They just have a nice tan, it's quite sunny there.

Well some people yes, but there are definitely many European Mediterranean people with naturally olive and light brown skin, who to put it plainly, wouldn't be considered White by Northern European standards.

Trust me I know first-hand. I'm an olive-skinned Turk and I've been mistaken as both European Mediterranean and Middle Eastern/North African.

Anyway it doesn't affect the Eurocentric angle, so no big deal .

 

[Dead Man]

Study of the stars themselves is hardly 400 years old either. If you want to discount ancient astronomers as astronomers on the basis of that they didn't know they were giant fusion reactors, Galileo isn't that knowledgeable either.

I think they are differentiating between astronomy and astrology. Before about 400 years ago it was all the same thing. Since they they have diverged.

 

[Seanspeed]

The evil of white people knows no bounds.

Anyways, we can only go by what we know. You can speculate that the Egpytians might have known about blah blah blah, but without specifics or explanation other than some speculative evidence, its very hard to strip credit away from the people who proved these things in a scientific and *recorded* manner.

 

[kswiston]

It's true though. Modern astronomy is only 400 years old. It's like psychology, you can trace it back to Plato and Aristoteles, but every psychologist on the planet will tell you that modern, scientific Psychology was born in the 1870's.

Some is true for all branches of science, other than math. A lot of the biological and chemical discoveries were made over the past 5000 years, but they weren't science as they lacked the systematic methodology until the 1600s/1700s.

 

[brochiller]

Even if they did have the technology at some point they obviously didn't do anything to advance our understanding of the world or we would know about it. Perhaps that's because they didn't share it with others or didn't record it for the history books. One way or the other, even assuming they did make a discovery first, it had no lasting impact on our civilization and these Europeans you speak of still had to make these discoveries on their own.

 

[Jay Sosa]

Well some people yes, but there are definitely many European Mediterranean people with naturally olive and light brown skin, who to put it plainly, wouldn't be considered White by Northern European standards.

Trust me I know first-hand. I'm an olive-skinned Turk and I've been mistaken as both European Mediterranean and Middle Eastern/North African.

Anyway it doesn't affect the Eurocentric angle, so no big deal .

I was joking.

 

[Drazgul]

Nah, europeans have the most achievement points by far, rest are dragging way behind.

 

[Jay Sosa]

Nah, europeans have the most achievement points by far, rest are dragging way behind.

It's fair to say we pretty much platinumed everything, at least in the last 500 years.

 

[Sh1ner]

I don't know, it seems a little exaggerated. The last episode also mentions how the environment of turn of the first millennium Islamic culture was conducive to a lot of important scientific thought (before the Mongols killed pretty much everyone there).

I think the point that the writers and Neil is trying to make is that Science is not bound to any race/culture or religion. Truth transcends all human boundaries and divisions and is available to all that seek it.

This is aimed at the American audience and at a low level that may struggle with the belief of evolution than followers of the scientific model, evidence based decision making who have already have a grasp of this basic concept.

 

[Cerity]

Really finding the critics of the show entertaining. I haven't watched it myself but all I see is "The show isn't the way I want it!"

 

[titusandronicus]

The idea of claiming inventions or discoveries belong to political borders is just insane.

 

[kurisu1974]

The idea of claiming inventions or discoveries belong to political borders is just insane.

Why is that? Sometimes a certain level of scientific and cultural advancement and freedom is necessary which can be defined within a political (or rather cultural) border.

I mean, that's why the Arabs and Persians invented lots of stuff some 1000 years ago, Europe kinda took over after that.

 

[David Incorporated Esq.]

Didn't the last episode talk specifically about the ancient Chinese developing the camera obscura and the actual principles behind it? Is China now in Europe?

 

[teruterubozu]

Probably. The show is called COSMOS after all.

 

[Sky Chief]

This is really nitpicking. In fact the last episode was all about the contributions of other cultures to science and how the Europeans came to the game so late. In multiple episodes he states that humans have been observing the stars and using them as a guide since we were hunters and gatherers. Really not seeing this at all.

 

[RaikuHebi]

I was joking.

Damn. I should've got that!

 

[NYCmetsfan]

There is no doubt that many African and Native American cultures had amazing scientific knowledge that we know little about. The Mayans stick out a lot in my mind. But current scientific knowledge rested almost exclusively up until the last 2-3 centuries on Eurasian/North African knowledge. There just wasn't communication between Africa and the Americas. So I think it'd be disingenuous to credit the other cultures.

I have no problem with highlighting the Mayan discovery of zero and their amazing Astronomical knowledge but the European use of zero came from its 'discovery' in India and its transfusion through the Islamic world to Europe not the Americas. Even if the Mayan's discover was first the Indians was the one that had the more important effects. Most of the great 'European' discoveries during the enlightenment just weren't based on non-Eurasian cultures as far as I can tell (if someone can prove scientific diffusion that'd be awesome! I just haven't seen it, hell maybe there is such information). Much of scientific history, at least the basis, for a lot of what we term modern science is Eurasian-centric, its just a fact.

The show definitely isn't making the case that there's some superiority in Europe that caused it to be this superior place. And Neil makes it know this knowledge and the process behind it belongs to all of humanity and its many cultures.

 

[Hari Seldon]

This is stupid because the show is only presenting history enough to make a point about the discovery process in science, it doesn't pretend to be a show about scientific history. And secondly they had a whole segment on the one Arab scientist.

 

[Reuenthal]

The show relatively ignores ancient Greeks, Egyptians and many more because most correct significant of modernish science started in 16th century europe. Of course before that, having to work with less knowledge, the discoveries made were also extremely significant and 16th century europeans were standing on the shoulders of giants. So it is less about cultural superiority and more about giants standing on the shoulder of giants and history of modernish science sort of starting at a more recent point of time. That is why there is more focus on relatively more recent scientists and their discoveries 16th century europe and later such an 19th century than earlier science.

* none of the above are absolute, and I expect more ancient, medieval scientists and of different cultures to appear in the show as they indeed did in last episode.

 

[Sinatar]

Last weeks episode dedicated a significant section to discussing astrology in the middle east and how it was a scientific wonderland for a long time.

 

[speculawyer]

Oh jeez. They've covered Chinese scientists and Islamic scientists. This is just nit-picking.

 

[Nikodemos]

And secondly they had a whole segment on the one Arab scientist.

Which one of them? al-Khwarizmi, Ibn Sina or Khayyam?

(I'm asking since I've never seen the show.)

 

[Salmonax]

If the Egyptians wanted credit, they should have put out that library fire.

 

[ScottSullivan]

He spent like a whole episode talking about the contributions of Arabic Mathematicians and scientists