Support NeoGAF

[BruceLeeRoy]

The benefits of porn and meat greatly overcome the bad aspects.

The Benefits? Please explain

 

[LeeRoyBrown]

Ugh. I don't watch rape porn. And I don't like vegetables which are slaughtered without a voice.

 

[Gastone]

Would you please elaborate on your thought process? I'm interested in understanding the way others think about this topic!

It's just lack of empathy, sadly. Not much else.

 

[Randy Monk]

The Benefits? Please explain

Are you celibate or a vegetarian?

 

[Kyzer]

Not at all, and arguments can be made for sure but they're not objective, and just because within your schema something has logical flaws or moral ambiguity doesn't mean it actually does. By using technology does OP believe in slavery (which was an integral part of society reaching the point where we can have the tech we do)? Are you unable to walk without fear of falling? Can you breathe without fear of toxins?

Human life is weird, that's normal. You just dont think about everything. If you require cognitive dissonance for something within it it's really just because of your own consciousness and the things that matter to you. It's not objectively bad. Just in your head

Like what if I like being treated like shit and filmed for porn?

 

[Mr Waluigi]

Over the course of your life, hundreds or thousands of animals would not suffer and be killed because of the drop in demand. Not sure why people have trouble understanding this basic point.

What "drop in demand" is 1 person not eating meat anymore? Unless vegetarianism becomes an actual, major, united movement, no less animals will suffer. If I personally stop eating meat, it won't change anything but I'll private myself from accessible food.

Edit: I'll add that I don't buy food - I eat at a university canteen. Even if I don't have meat, other people will gladly have it, so what's the point? Until the public is globally outraged by the treatment of animals, there is no use in not eating meat anymore (at least not for that purpose).

 

[The Wall]

Defeatist? Closer to morbid realism.

I hate that train of thought-'You are powerful as singular people! One person can change the world!'.

Only very few people can 'change' the world by themselves. Even then, they usually require a network that is there to support them in that change.

But all it takes is one person who cares about and wants to change things to get those networks created and going. Sometimes, things really can change for the better by something one person starts.

I find it's about not feeling guilt over how you do things currently, because it's all you've known/learned. Doing what I can within my means, and slowly changing and adding better choices to my life. For example, I'd go to the butcher for meat eventually when I can add that into my routine and life.

 

[ultratruman]

It's called ideology.

I know very well, but.

 

[ebullientprism]

Food? Not really. Animals die and people eat them, it seems pretty natural to me. The factory like nature of modern food production might bother some but even knowing a bit about that doesnt bother me at all. No more than eating vegetables does.

Porn though, I think there is some dissonance there. If I thought too much about what happens in the background (immediate practical and longterm philosophical) I probably wouldnt enjoy it.

 

[marrec]

Does anyone else think it's weird that OP reposted his OP?

 

[thecouncil]

Like what if I like being treated like shit and filmed for porn?

Good for you but I don't have to sit there and jack off to it.

 

[Johndoey]

I made a shitty post early in the thread but seriously I don't really care about the exploitation of people I don't know, society is based around exploitation I won't pretend to care much. And livestock is livestock I feel nothing, I mean keep suffering to a minimum in all cases ideally but it's whatever.

 

[Nostremitus]

The Benefits? Please explain

Regarding meat.

http://www.npr.org/2010/08/02/128849908/food-for-thought-meat-based-diet-made-us-smarter

Regarding porn, and (by association) masturbation

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blo...uchy-subject-the-health-benefits-masturbation

http://www.harvardprostateknowledge.org/does-frequent-ejaculation-help-ward-off-prostate-cancer


Something being taboo doesn't make it bad for you. It just means that the majority is either poorly educated or hold a belief in some form of dogma that says it's bad.

That's not to say those who hold on to the dogmatic beliefs are poorly educated, it just means that their belief system tells them not to do it for other reasons than health.

Also, dogmatic beliefs do not inherently mean religious beliefs even though most religious beliefs are dogmatic.

 

[magnetic]

Aizo, thinking about what living in a less harmful way looks like is always a good thing, even if you start feeling defeated in the end.

My girlfriend stopped buying products with palm oil in them. Why? Because they kill the rainforest to make more space for the palm monocultures and destroying the environment of many kinds of animals, especially apes.

The thing is, palm oil is almost everywhere. It's the cheapest oil on the market. If you're really trying to not hurt any living being with your eating habits and you happen to already be a vegan, the pool of options available to you shrinks even more.

And most people don't even know about the problems of palm oil. I really admire her for sticking to this, because it's one of these cases where it's impossible to make a real difference all by yourself.

 

[NoblesseOblige]

I watch pornography approved by sex-positive feminists.

So no to that one.

 

[jph139]

I eat meat, and I consider it wrong to eat meat - not due to treatment or quality of animal life or whatever, but due to the fundamental act of killing another thinking, feeling, living creature when there are clear and easy alternatives. Eating meat in any capacity is selfish, lazy, and fundamentally immoral.

And you can say the same for most things I consume (electronics, etc.) - and I mean things I make an active choice in consuming, I feel like I'll get a pass for taking a bus built by exploited workers when I have no practical alternative to make a living.

How do I deal with that? I guess nihilism. I'm a bad person making bad choices. Most people are. It's compounding immorality to accept that you're immoral and make no effort to change it, but... eh. I'm awful. You're awful. The world's awful. May as well succumb to hedonism.

But it does bother me when people are like - no, I'm fine, there's no real alternatives, it's no big deal, Thing X is bad so who cares about Thing Y? Bullshit. You're acting immorally - or at least, with suboptimal morality. Accept it. Don't try to handwave it or justify it. Participating in a system that you find immoral is immoral, so long as there are alternatives to that system.

 

[Aizo]

well you're trying to imply you have no unconscious craving for meat. we are not that kind of animal to just be herbivores. put that meat in front of me

Spoiler

a statement i suggest you to post in LettersGAF to put some happiness in your life at the responses you'd get

I think you missed the part where I said that I eat meat.

Does anyone else think it's weird that OP reposted his OP?

That was already addressed. In the re-post, even, I explain why I did it. I did it to archive and take off the first page, because it was doing more harm than good. I didn't do it so people would look at it again.

I made a shitty post early in the thread but seriously I don't really care about the exploitation of people I don't know, society is based around exploitation I won't pretend to care much. And livestock is livestock I feel nothing, I mean keep suffering to a minimum in all cases ideally but it's whatever.

Are you a Nihilist?

snip

The benefits of masturbation aren't tied to pornography. Bonobos masturbate. Bonobos don't have pornography. Sure, anyone is free to masturbate to anything they want, but porn is not a great benefit for humankind.

 

[CloudWolf]

Question for OP: Do you also feel guilty playing games? Because most games are made in terrible work conditions.

As for the question in the OP: No, I don't feel guilty eating meat or using electronics. If I did, I had to feel guilty for almost everything I enjoy. I do generally try to avoid professional porn, not because it's wrong, but because it's the opposite of appealing to me.

 

[Nostremitus]

The benefits of masturbation aren't tied to pornography. Bonobos masturbate. Bonobos don't have pornography. Sure, anyone is free to masturbate to anything they want, but porn is not a great benefit for humankind.

Porn also increases the number of good sperm in male ejaculate vs having sex with or viewing/thinking of their partner. Watching porn during sex while trying to conceive can actually increase the chances of pregnancy by making the man more fertile.

http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s40806-015-0022-8


And, since porn is proven to increase the male labido and make masterbation more enjoyable and fulfilling, the other two points are still points for porn. This is especially true considering that men who are not fully arroused can ejaculate without actual orgasm. This would hinder the psychological benefits of masterbation.

 

[TruHero]

I tend not to walk around in a perpetual state of guilt.

 

[Kinokou]

Cows, as an example can be sick of bacterial and other infections. Cows should be given the treatment.

Under normal FDA rules, antibiotics are not present in the the consumption of meat. It's a schedule, and the appropriate time is given from antibiotic course to slaughter.

It should be given as needed, and not as a prescriptive risk abatement.

Antibiotic free is just another marketing tool with no regulative weight.

Thank you for the clarification, it is clear now.

Aizo, thinking about what living in a less harmful way looks like is always a good thing, even if you start feeling defeated in the end.

My girlfriend stopped buying products with palm oil in them. Why? Because they kill the rainforest to make more space for the palm monocultures and destroying the environment of many kinds of animals, especially apes.

The thing is, palm oil is almost everywhere. It's the cheapest oil on the market. If you're really trying to not hurt any living being with your eating habits and you happen to already be a vegan, the pool of options available to you shrinks even more.

And most people don't even know about the problems of palm oil. I really admire her for sticking to this, because it's one of these cases where it's impossible to make a real difference all by yourself.

Cool send her a high five!

Norway got a big consumer boycott going on against palm oil and it proved quite effective, I can't manage to find a recent number but before 2012 food producers here used 15000 tonns of palm oil and it got reduced to 5409 tonns in 2012 (Regnskog.no) and those who still use it for food have become stricter in controlling that they are buying sustainable palm oil.

On the bad side apparently Norwegian cows, salmon and cars are running on palm oil :\

 

[nynt9]

I'll take this moral dilemma a step further. Every second in your life that you're not spending productively to help a cause, you're implicitly being part of that cause not being fixed. How do you feel about that? Instead of posting on this forum right now, you could be helping out at a homeless shelter or volunteering for a charity or working to get a degree in medicine to try to cure cancer. How do you justify "wasting" time when there are so many issues in the world that need solving?

 

[RadioJoNES64]

Come on guys, we should be aware that every breathe of oxygen we inhale is thanks to the hard working trees who are not compensated and are quite often murdered.

 

[True Savior]

You pose interesting questions but all of them are the result of a structure. I am, most certainly, a big consumer of porn and meat. And yes, I avoid knowing the mechanics of a slaughterhouse. For my own selfishness (but I also know there has been advances in those areas). It doesn't make any sense to only bring this two subjects to the discussion though.

I think we should tackle problems globally. Social inequality being the major issue that can be solved and redistributed everywhere. Giving better conditions to every single human being. That's the major point of fighting inequality that can be spilled over almost any activity. And that is a stance I try to live by, to vote accordingly and to help promote anything that can change the current establishment.

It leaves animals out of the equation, but that is another issue that should be evaluated separately.

 

[Gastone]

I'll take this moral dilemma a step further. Every second in your life that you're not spending productively to help a cause, you're implicitly being part of that cause not being fixed. How do you feel about that? Instead of posting on this forum right now, you could be helping out at a homeless shelter or volunteering for a charity or working to get a degree in medicine to try to cure cancer. How do you justify "wasting" time when there are so many issues in the world that need solving?

I justify it fine to myself by knowing that my priority lies in taking care of me and mine, first and foremost. This is what most people live by, i think. But all respect to those who find the time to take on the worlds problems.

 

[BruceLeeRoy]

Are you celibate or a vegetarian?

Ha definitely neither. I fail to see how someone that doesn't watch pornography is missing out on anything.

Regarding meat.

http://www.npr.org/2010/08/02/128849908/food-for-thought-meat-based-diet-made-us-smarter

Regarding porn, and (by association) masturbation

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blo...uchy-subject-the-health-benefits-masturbation

http://www.harvardprostateknowledge.org/does-frequent-ejaculation-help-ward-off-prostate-cancer


Something being taboo doesn't make it bad for you. It just means that the majority is either poorly educated or hold a belief in some form of dogma that says it's bad.

That's not to say those who hold on to the dogmatic beliefs are poorly educated, it just means that their belief system tells them not to do it for other reasons than health.

Also, dogmatic beliefs do not inherently mean religious beliefs even though most religious beliefs are dogmatic.

I agree that meat is most definitely part of a healthy diet but I don't agree that the trade off - damage to the environment and the treatment of the animal is a worthy trade off.

Trying to link porn with the benefits of masturbaton seems a bit ridiculous though. That's like trying to say eating candy is good for you because it falls under the general umbrella of eating

 

[KorrZ]

I don't think it requires either. It only requires that you put your own wants and desires first above any moral compass, which is fairly easy to do and is just human nature.

When it comes to meat, I do feel a tinge of sadness for the animals on the rare occasion that it crosses my mind, but generally I just don't think about it. That sadness though isn't any different than I feel seeing a poor seal get eaten by a shark on the Discovery channel though. It's sad but, it's the food chain.

 

[True Savior]

Ha definitely neither. I fail to see how someone that doesn't watch pornography is missing out on anything.

They are missing out Remy Lacroix and Riley Reid.

 

[Subpar Scrub]

I said it earlier, but shitty conditions exist to maximise the amount of meat you get for the least money. What conditions would you rather these cows live in?

Also, which countries are you talking about? I know a bunch of farms in mine let the cows roam in gargantuan herds across thousands of hectares. Sucks for them when they're loaded onto the trucks and sent overseas to shitty countries for slaughter, but selling live cows gives you so much more money. Meat lasts longer, too.

 

[Adaren]

That sadness though isn't any different than I feel seeing a poor seal get eaten by a shark on the Discovery channel though. It's sad but, it's the food chain.

The counterargument that I present to myself is that I don't look to sharks and lions to determine my moral standards. If I have the choice to not support the killing of animals without doing great harm to myself (ie. starvation) , then I feel that there's only one option I can reasonably justify to myself.

 

[TheAutomator]

I'll take this moral dilemma a step further. Every second in your life that you're not spending productively to help a cause, you're implicitly being part of that cause not being fixed. How do you feel about that? Instead of posting on this forum right now, you could be helping out at a homeless shelter or volunteering for a charity or working to get a degree in medicine to try to cure cancer. How do you justify "wasting" time when there are so many issues in the world that need solving?

Any more grasping at straws and you'll put McDs out of business.

 

[marrec]

That was already addressed. In the re-post, even, I explain why I did it. I did it to archive and take off the first page, because it was doing more harm than good. I didn't do it so people would look at it again.

That's weird.

 

[Blablurn]

I recently met a coworker who is a vegan.

I met vegetarians before but spending some good months with her really made me think about the whole meat (or milk or egg) thing. I admire her for standing strong. there was a short time where i thought about it but i dont think im ready for that. the comfort zone is too big. plus its hard to live that lifestyle in china. everytime we ordered something we had to make sure its good for her. for example no cheese on pizza. i mean, it looked nice and but there was always a lil hassle. especially if you have chinese waiters who just dont get it. felt sorry for her in those moments.

but i can i accept a pizza without ham or cheese? probably not. but im thinking more than ever about this problem

 

[Aske]

Not all porn is rape; plenty is created by respecful, sex-positive men and women who work with performers who enjoy performing. I would never knowingly watch porn that was made by anyone else.

Meat is good for me. I may not like the way livestock suffers, but while I'll vote for less cruelty and more regulation, I certainly don't feel morally compelled to stop eating animals. The suffering they endure does not cause me sufficient distress.

I have absolutely no ethical qualms about these opinions.

 

[OniBarubary]

I watch pornography approved by sex-positive feminists.

So no to that one.

Is there like...a site for this? I'm actually legit curious to see what's approved.

 

[John Kowalski]

"Some drawn" LOL

We all know what it means.

 

[poppabk]

It requires a certain level of cognitive dissonance but that is required just to live. If we considered all the suffering that our lives inflict on other people we would just shut down.

 

[Kai Dracon]

Realistically, people cannot be expected to live in an idealized ethical space because life is messy, subjective, and relative. There is wide territory between living as a monk and being a nihilist who doesn't care about anything.

The collective actions of individuals doing whatever is within their present capacity shifts society. I don't think accepting that you cannot personally save the world at any one moment requires cognitive dissonance. Just an understanding of scale.

 

[Cheesecakebobby]

What "drop in demand" is 1 person not eating meat anymore? Unless vegetarianism becomes an actual, major, united movement, no less animals will suffer. If I personally stop eating meat, it won't change anything but I'll private myself from accessible food.

Edit: I'll add that I don't buy food - I eat at a university canteen. Even if I don't have meat, other people will gladly have it, so what's the point? Until the public is globally outraged by the treatment of animals, there is no use in not eating meat anymore (at least not for that purpose).

An American eats, on average, 27 chickens a year, ignoring other animals for now. So over the course of a lifetime, one vegetarian person reduces the demand for chicken by hundreds or thousands.

Obviously if there were millions of vegetarians then the demand would drop by billions, that is beyond the point. I can't stop world poverty alone but I still donate to charity. I can't stop climate change alone but I can reduce my wastage and recycle more. I can't prevent the torture of billions of farmed animals but I can be one of the many taking a step to do so rather than justifying inhumane conditions to satisfy my base desires.

 

[UrbanRats]

I'm already generally guilt ridden from sunrise to sundown, one more or one less makes little difference.
But every once in a while you stop and think about how fundamentally evil certain aspects of existence are, soak it in and move on.
That's why meds and tv were invented.

 

[L4DANathan]

I recall reading a series of articles about how plants can communicate as well as scream (was a while ago and I don't have the links, sorry). On a fundamental level, this puts eating them on the same moral ground as eating an animal, it's simply that we have more in common to most animals, so it's more distressing to us to see them suffer. Until we devise a way to create food that doesn't include plants or animals, the only real way to keep humans alive is at their expense. As a result, while we can certainly curtail some of the harsher and more unnecessary treatments of animals, we can't remove most of it, as it's the same system that keeps us alive.

I also feel the need to point out that I'm currently more concerned about how people are being treated in the world to really focus on the animals. I consider the list of priorities to be sentience (humans) > sapience (gorillas/dolphins) > everything else.

On a side note, that information regarding porn is absolutely disgusting, anyone have a list of companies that are confirmed to deal in that kind of shit (with supporting evidence)?

 

[NoblesseOblige]

Is there like...a site for this? I'm actually legit curious to see what's approved.

There used to be a subreddit for it. I'm at work now though so I'm not able to check if it's still around. Other than that there's several feminists who self-produce amateur porn to upload into the community sections of popular hosting sites. So you can follow a few of them.

 

[Xdrive05]

I hunt most of my red meat and all of my small game meat, and source the rest of my meat from farms with better practices than factory farms.

Not everyone has the luxury to do this. I understand that. If you live somewhere where it's practical at your location, then it's not really all that costly or time consuming. Just put in the work and get good at it, like anything else.

Re: porn,ahem, er, it's, uh, I wouldn't know, but, it's, uh, *probably* only good if it's real and made from people wanting to share it, and not people being exploited for a product. Though, frankly, I'm not that concerned about the latter situation as long as no force or fraud is involved.

 

[jph139]

I also feel the need to point out that I'm currently more concerned about how people are being treated in the world to really focus on the animals. I consider the list of priorities to be sentience (humans) > sapience (gorillas/dolphins) > everything else.

I'm curious what your justification is for that hierarchy - it's the sort of thing that feels intuitively right, but I've never been able to work out an objective reason for placing sentience at the top of the pyramid. Beyond the whole "I'm human, and more human = better" thing.

The only objectove measure I've really managed to justify is sheer amount of life - humans are at the top because a human being is capable or creating and preserving more living cells, so it's more valuable than an ant that can only produce itself and maybe some more which are really tiny in size and longevity, thus less cells. But that feels incredibly arbitrary.

 

[Cheesecakebobby]

I recall reading a series of articles about how plants can communicate as well as scream (was a while ago and I don't have the links, sorry). On a fundamental level, this puts eating them on the same moral ground as eating an animal,

Why should moral grounds hinge on communication? What you are talking about, the release of certain chemicals by certain species of plants under certain circumstances, is a mile away from consciousness. If you truly believed this then you would have to say there is no moral distinction between mowing the lawn and putting a kitten in a blender. I actually know several postdoc researchers in plant biology who are vegans and who get very tired of this argument.

On the flip side, there are animals such as small insects and sea creatures which do not demonstrate any pain-avoidance behaviour or have anything resembling a nervous system, so it is hard to argue that they suffer. Thus if you absolutely must eat animals then there are alternatives which do not require the same level of cognitive dissonance to justify eating.

 

[thelastcrusader]

What about the third option? The educated but uncaring hedonist that knows he's in the wrong to some degree? Or the fourth option? The educated consumer that avoids the immoral options?

But the title would have been too long, yeah.

I'm the uncaring hedonist.

 

[Anime lover 69]

I learned a long time ago to just not care since everything we buy or watch has something fucked around it. Although the porn completely depends on companies and the people in charge.

 

[magnetic]

Why should moral grounds hinge on communication? What you are talking about, the release of certain chemicals by certain species of plants under certain circumstances, is a mile away from consciousness. If you truly believed this then you would have to say there is no moral distinction between mowing the lawn and putting a kitten in a blender. I actually know several postdoc researchers in plant biology who are vegans and who get very tired of this argument.

On the flip side, there are animals such as small insects and sea creatures which do not demonstrate any pain-avoidance behaviour or have anything resembling a nervous system, so it is hard to argue that they suffer. Thus if you absolutely must eat animals then there are alternatives which do not require the same level of cognitive dissonance to justify eating.

Yeah, I'm not even a vegetarian, but this "but what about killing plants?" always sounds like a very facetious argument meant to mock vegetarians/vegans.

I've also read it a million times by now. Mass murder of carrots, very edgy observation.

 

[thelastcrusader]

OP you should talk to a stripper or a body rub shop girl one day. Their stories will teach you all about how fucked up we as human beings can be.

 

[Tigress]

Well, I think that from a dispassionate viewpoint, there is really no reason for humans to feel sympathy for the way a chicken is treated. Most people can't help themselves, because they tend to anthropomorphize animals and so they project values about how humans should be treated onto them. As a society, we see this as a good thing because subconsciously we're thinking "well if this person can feel sympathy for an animal, then they can probably feel empathy towards human beings" and valuing empathy toward other humans is the part that it is rational to value. When kids pull the legs off spiders it doesn't horrify us because we think that spiders deserve human rights, it horrifies us because we worry that they are a sociopath with a broken empathy system.

Now, if you accept that feeling sympathy toward a chicken can be both natural and healthy but simultaneously irrational, then it makes sense to intentionally shield yourself from information about chickens being harmed. This allows me to enjoy eating the meat without suffering from unwarranted guilt. The proper cure would be to learn to not anthropomorphize the chicken, but I think that's hard for a lot of people to do unless they grow up on a farm.

Realizing animals can feel pain is not anthromorphizing them. It's having common sense. Anthromorphizing is when you think they think like us. It is not being able to realize they can feel pain and fear. That last part is more being able to emphasize with a living thing.