Support NeoGAF

[Already Torn]

How do we reconcile this with the idea others were touting in this topic that there are no "degrees" of immune system strength, and that if you are infected you're guaranteed to be down for the count. How can you be infected but asymptomatic.

Who is saying there are no degrees of immune system strength? That's idiotic. I'm covered in MRSA but it stays in my nose because I have a healthy immune system. If it got on someone in the hospital it could cause a serious problem.

Of course even if you don't have the virus at all, you're not helping to contribute to herd immunity, so you're really both risking your health and the health of others.

 

[A Fish Aficionado]

Where is this idea that the immune system is some binary phenomenon, and getting sick is 100% up to luck, coming from? This topic is maybe the first place I've ever seen people assert this. Even among the most hardcore "standard/traditional" medicine advocates.

My head hurts.

I'm pretty sure your local community college offers undergrad bio and immunology, or microbiology classes. I've already taken them.

 

[Joni]

A lot of individuals in those high-priority groups that you mentioned may not be able to get flu vaccines themselves, either because of allergies or weakened immune systems. Herd immunity is the idea that these extremely at risk groups can still be protected by being surrounded by people with immunity, as evidence shows that immunity can be somewhat shared. So your WHO links are a good argument for why you should get vaccinated, unless you really only give a shit about your self and not pregnant women, children, elderly people, and the immunocompromised..

Which is why they recommend it to health care workers. I however don't come into contact with the elderly or children on any regular basis. Maybe it would be better if all countries we are debating here, mandated the vaccines for these groups. I'm such a non-factor that my country doesn't even consider a partial rebate for a flu vaccine for me.

 

[badblue]

I should get a flu shot, but I'm lazy. I had a bad reaction to the last one I had 10+ years ago.

I had the flu a few years back and I was in bed for two weeks strait. It was terrible.

Maybe this year.

 

[andycapps]

Getting the shot at my workplace today. Get it every year.

They didn't cover a myth that some relatives of mine believe: Flu shots are linked to more rapid development of Alzheimer's.

Which is weird because they're REALLY not the anti-vacc types at all, it's specifically the flu shot.

No basis in science.

Flu shots increase risk of Alzheimer's disease.

Reality: A theory linking flu shots to a greatly increased risk of Alzheimer's disease has been proposed by a U.S. doctor whose license was suspended by the South Carolina Board of Medical Examiners. Several mainstream studies link flu shots and other vaccinations to a reduced risk of Alzheimer's disease and overall better health.

 

[prag16]

Who is saying there are no degrees of immune system strength? That's idiotic.

At minimum, two people asserted this on the last page. Prior to that I think there may have been more. And the guy who posted directly below you appears to be in that camp as well.

Your immune system isn't going to prevent the influenza if it's a new strain, you're going to get the full live virus. And get sick. And stay indoors, to (hopefully) not infect others. That's when your immune system fights it, understands the strain, and then memorises it for the future but then since influenza has a high mutation rate, it'll be useless for the next time.

When people say "I've got a great immune system" as a retort to why they refuse to get the flu shot, it doesn't amount to anything other than the equivalent of saying "yeah I don't mind getting the flu and suffer for a week". You're not going to die compared to an immunocompromised person, but that isn't exactly great consolation.

Bolded: How can we say this but also be afraid that there people who were infected, but are not symptomatic (who will then go on to effect people with weaker immune systems).

There is no such thing as a 'strong' immune system, so this idea that you somehow have a 'strong' immune system is pseudo-science nonsense. Your immune system is either on or off.

This one is even more absurd.

 

[Moff]

Nope, haven't gotten the flu in 15+ years so I won't take the risk of side effects

 

[Already Torn]

Which is why they recommend it to health care workers. I however don't come into contact with the elderly or children on any regular basis. Maybe it would be better if all countries we are debating here, mandated the vaccines for these groups. I'm such a non-factor that my country doesn't even consider a partial rebate for a flu vaccine for me.

You never use public transportation? Walk around busy streets?

 

[Zantetsuken]

Who eats the cost of flu shots?

 

[thelastcrusader]

At minimum, two people asserted this on the last page. Prior to that I think there may have been more. And the guy who posted directly below you appears to be in that camp as well.



Bolded: How can we say this but also be afraid that there people who were infected, but are not symptomatic (who will then go on to effect people with weaker immune systems).



This one is even more absurd.

I have had multiple doctors tell me "some people just have stronger immune systems" in regards to why everyone in the house might get sick minus one person. Guess they should all lose their licenses for their ignorance.

 

[KurtSloane]

Get it every year since available, have serious asthma issues if I contract a cold, Nevermind the flu.

Getting mine in 2 weeks.

 

[Trojita]

The bodies immune system is a complex machine in the body that produces antibodies to kill foreign material introduced into the body.

Prior exposure to the same virus can setup your immune system with the ability to catalog the virus. It's like giving your immune system enemy data and their weak points.

In general if you are in bad health, your immune system will be worse.

The flu is such a headache in general for the medical field because of the many strains it has (Flu vaccines will be 3-4 strains) and their ability to mutate.

Herd Immunity helps a shit load and is not to be underestimated at all. It can help reduce the chance you encounter the virus by up to more than five vectors.

 

[prag16]

I have had multiple doctors tell me "some people just have stronger immune systems" in regards to why everyone in the house might get sick minus one person. Guess they should all lose their licenses for their ignorance.

The immune system is extremely complex, and likely not as well understood as we would like to believe. Autoimmune disease is even less well understood.

 

[Miles Quaritch]

I have had multiple doctors tell me "some people just have stronger immune systems" in regards to why everyone in the house might get sick minus one person. Guess they should all lose their licenses for their ignorance.

I think this is just what they say to keep it simple instead of going into the long winded explanation of why some people's immune systems don't react in the same way as others.

Things like weight, water intake, stress levels all impact the immune system and no one is really immune from at least one of those.

Stronger immune system, when you consider those, is slightly misleading and inaccurate.

 

[Joni]

You never use public transportation? Walk around busy streets?

I have a car. And the flu doesn't tend to spread by walking close to a person.

 

[Miles Quaritch]

I better not see you out on the streets, Joni. I'll get a baby and old person to spit their germs all over you.

 

[Izayoi]

The crazies were out in force while I was asleep, it seems. The ride never ends.

I don't remember the last time I was sick. That was worse case is what I was saying. And not sure how doing research and making a decision based of what I think is best for my family makes me a scumbag dad.

How hard is it to understand that you can carry the virus without being symptomatic?

You are directly and willfully putting your children at risk of an infection that kills hundreds every year.

The fact that you proudly shout your flagrant disregard for the health of your children to the world says plenty about your character.

I have a car. And the flu doesn't tend to spread by walking close to a person.

As yes, the man is island all of his own! I'm sure you never, ever come in contact with society at large. You're just too good for that, right? How could one so awesome as you ever interact with us plebeians? It's simply absurd!

 

[Messofanego]

You never use public transportation? Walk around busy streets?

Interact with society? But gamers got everything they need down under.

 

[Joni]

I better not see you out on the streets, Joni. I'll get a baby and old person to spit their germs all over you.

Did I forget to mention that I live in a bubble?

As yes, the man is island all of his own! I'm sure you never, ever come in contact with society at large. You're just too good for that, right? How could one so awesome as you ever interact with us plebeians? It's simply absurd!

The flu is spread in three important ways: direct contact, fluids like sneezing, coughs; Contact with objects like tissues and other things people tend to sneeze on. That is stuff I don't tend to achieve with strangers on the street. I also tend to follow basic hygiene, so I wash my hands and I only touch the doorknob of the toilets using tissues because I see people that don't wash their hands. I'm also not an island, so yes there is a chance I could get sick. As I have made clear before, I'm not a risk group and I don't have any specific health issues. So I'm simply following government-regulations for flu-shots. And people are calling me anti-vaxxer for that while you know, coming up with things that the WHO, ECDC and doctors in general don't recommend. There are even people claiming there is a powerful lobby stopping this recommendation. So yes, this is absurd as people here are simply not discussing on content, not on statistics, just emotions and the fact that the American CDC recommends this. Despite that the American CDC only started this in 2010, as a reaction to the 2009 pandemic, for which there was no vaccine at all yet this wasn't a specifically high killing flu.

 

[Moral Panic]

As yes, the man is island all of his own! I'm sure you never, ever come in contact with society at large. You're just too good for that, right? How could one so awesome as you ever interact with us plebeians? It's simply absurd!

Its stuff like this that makes GAF frustrating. You are so up in your high horse, so convinced of your own righteousness to the point where having a simple discussion is impossible. It is embarrassing.

 

[MC Safety]

I take a flu shot annually.

The thing is, there are lots of different types of flu strains. The flu shot you get is a vaccination for the strains the CDC thinks is most likely to be prevalent that year.

http://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/season/vaccine-selection.htm

 

[Izayoi]

The flu is spread in three important ways: direct contact, fluids like sneezing, coughs; Contact with objects like tissues and other things people tend to sneeze on. That is stuff I don't tend to achieve with strangers on the street. I also tend to follow basic hygiene, so I wash my hands and I only touch the doorknob of the toilets using tissues because I see people that don't wash their hands. I'm also not an island, so yes there is a chance I could get sick. As I have made clear before, I'm not a risk group and I don't have any specific health issues. So I'm simply following government-regulations for flu-shots. And people are calling me anti-vaxxer for that while you know, coming up with things that the WHO, ECDC and doctors in general don't recommend. There are even people claiming there is a powerful lobby stopping this recommendation. So yes, this is absurd as people here are simply not discussing on content, not on statistics, just emotions and the fact that the American CDC recommends this. Despite that the American CDC only started this in 2010, as a reaction to the 2009 pandemic, for which there was no vaccine at all yet this wasn't a specifically high killing flu.

Person to Person

People with flu can spread it to others up to about 6 feet away. Most experts think that flu viruses are spread mainly by droplets made when people with flu cough, sneeze or talk. These droplets can land in the mouths or noses of people who are nearby or possibly be inhaled into the lungs. Less often, a person might also get flu by touching a surface or object that has flu virus on it and then touching their own mouth or nose.

http://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/disease/spread.htm

Its stuff like this that makes GAF frustrating. You are so up in your high horse, so convinced of your own righteousness to the point where having a simple discussion is impossible. It is embarrassing.

There is not a lot of discussion to be had when people willingly choose to ignore hundreds of well-documented scientific studies that prove over, and over, and over again that their point of view is not based in reality. It's like trying to debate someone who spouts "All Lives Matter" hogwash on the intricacies of institutionalized racism. It just doesn't work.

 

[weremichael]

I work in Public Education. I'd be a fool not to get a shot. Those kids are breeding grounds for all sorts of baddies!

Very much the case. I work at a high school and the infectious agents my students bring to school are the CDC's wet dream. Gimme my immunizations.

 

[Skellig Gra]

Can't be bothered, haven't ever had the flu. If I ever get it then I'll spend the time every year.

 

[redlegs87]

Just got back from getting mine. Asked the person giving me the shot how many strains it was covering he said it was 3 this year. Told me flu season is starting early in places so it's a good idea to get a shot now rather than later. The responses from some of the people in this thread make me incredibly angry.

 

[Laekon]

I'm required to get one. I know you don't get the flu from the shot but I see to many people feel run down in the days after to not believe it really puts a hurt to your immune system.

 

[Desi]

I get it at work and it's free. I have had the flu the times and am always sick kind of so it makes sense to protect myself at all times.

 

[Izayoi]

Just got back from getting mine. Asked the person giving me the shot how many strains it was covering he said it was 3 this year. Told me flu season is starting early in places so it's a good idea to get a shot now rather than later. The responses from some of the people in this thread make me incredibly angry.

Think about how it makes those in medicine and public health feel! :lol

I've never seriously participated in a vaccination thread on GAF before this one, but holy fuck. At least I'll know what to expect next time...

 

[redlegs87]

Think about how it makes those in medicine and public health feel! :lol

I've never seriously participated in a vaccination thread on GAF before this one, but holy fuck. At least I'll know what to expect next time...

Other than being allergic to either eggs or anything else in the shot there is no excuse not to get a shot. Many of those people are the kind that will go out of their way to cough at you if you try and not be near them when they have the sniffles or coughing fits.

 

[Joni]

There is not a lot of discussion to be had when people willingly choose to ignore hundreds of well-documented scientific studies that prove over, and over, and over again that their point of view is not based in reality. It's like trying to debate someone who spouts "All Lives Matter" hogwash on the intricacies of institutionalized racism. It just doesn't work.

Indeed. I post EDCD and WHO links showing why typically we don't get flu shots yet people don't seem to read them or offer counter points instead acting little brats. They just like yelling how following the accepted medical advice on my continent is anti-scientific while refusing to back up their statements with statistics or studies. So it is more like those tipping threads with Americans being mad at Europeans for not tipping their local waiters.

 

[Naudi]

The crazies were out in force while I was asleep, it seems. The ride never ends.


How hard is it to understand that you can carry the virus without being symptomatic?

You are directly and willfully putting your children at risk of an infection that kills hundreds every year.

The fact that you proudly shout your flagrant disregard for the health of your children to the world says plenty about your character.


As yes, the man is island all of his own! I'm sure you never, ever come in contact with society at large. You're just too good for that, right? How could one so awesome as you ever interact with us plebeians? It's simply absurd!

Lol wow. Hundreds a year. Holy shit! I better go get a shot now. Seems like you guys would be afraid to even stand in a house that could fall over at any moment.

 

[ShironRedshift]

I'm going to admit. I never got the shot before because I was lazy and stuff, but that's really no excuse so this thread inspired me to change it. So I got the shot while I was at CVS today. Pretty simple and straightforward and they gave me a 20% off shopping pass coupon thing for doing so (granted, only up to a max of $10, but sitll--for a free vaccine, getting a $10 off a $50 order coupon is pretty damn cool). So, that's pretty cool. ^__^ Plan to hopefully make this a regular thing. So thank you OP for providing me with the push I needed to get this done.

 

[farisr]

Lol wow. Hundreds a year. Holy shit! I better go get a shot now. Seems like you guys would be afraid to even stand in a house that could fall over at any moment.

Yeah, LOL. Hundreds people dying. LOL. So funny. I mean, shit, I could take this relatively harmless vaccination, to prevent passing a virus to someone it could be lethal to, but I mean it's only a few hundred people after all. Who cares right?

smh

btw not just hundreds a year, can range anywhere from 3k-49k in the US. 250k to 500k worldwide.

 

[pottuvoi]

Everyone should get it. It's not to protect ourselves, it's so we don't pass it to infants and seniors.

This.

 

[1.21Gigawatts]

Was surprised to see all the ads for flu shots when I was in the US, never seen that anywhere else.

In Germany doctors usually send you home when you ask them for a flu shot. Unless you have preconditions weaking your immune system, you're pregnant, newborn, old, or work in a hospital, there is really no reason to get a flu shot.
I think in the US this is more about the business behind it than the medical necessity.

Of course you can get a flu shot in germany if you really want one, but doctors usually tell you that the side effects in comparison to the risc of getting the flu are not a good trade, at east if you are not part of any of the special risc groups.
Actually I've seen some campaigns( by the german government: http://www.impfen-info.de/impfempfehlungen/fuer-erwachsene/grippe-influenza/infektion/ ) trying to get people in these groups to get a flu shots. Iirc only 25% of medical personel in germany gets it. Thats not good.
I don't know what the reason is. I guess its just laziness of people in combination with a lack of fearmongering. There is no relevant anti-vaxxer movement in germany as far as I know.

My mom gets flu shots because she works in a hospital, but other than her I know nobody who gets them and I don't recall that anyone I know had the flu in recent years. That doesn't mean anything, but I really don't think its necessary for me to get one.

 

[YourMaster]

a flu shots. Iirc only 25% of medical personel in germany gets it. Thats not good.
I don't know what the reason is. I guess its just laziness of people in combination with a lack of fearmongering. There is no relevant anti-vaxxer movement in germany as far as I know.

O, but there is. Germany has strongly rising non-vaccination rates. And from personal experience, I have a young child and when it got vaccinated it was not assumed he would just get his shots. By me it was, but the pediatrician had a speech prepared to convince us as parents, we received lots of colored paper with anti-anti-vax-arguments and there was a list where we had to opt-in for every shot(so we had an option to pick diseases which we liked) and sign for it.

It has become so extreme that to fight the reduced vaccination rates it is now possible for schools to reject unvaccinated children.

 

[ShironRedshift]

My mom gets flu shots because she works in a hospital, but other than her I know nobody who gets them and I don't recall that anyone I know had the flu in recent years. That doesn't mean anything, but I really don't think its necessary for me to get one.

Well, that's because it's not really about you individually. It's about how even if you yourself have a strong immune system and don't show symptoms, you could still be carrying the virus and pass it on to those who aren't protected from the virus at all, such as the immuno-compromised, the young, the elderly, and those with egg allergies. The point of the vaccine is to reduce the amount of vectors the virus has to affect these groups as much as possible, and that only works when a huge proportion of the healthy (~80%) are vaccinated to make it incredibly unlikely for the virus to be able to hop from enough unprotrected people to be able to affect them. The more and more young and healthy people who get the vaccine, the harder it is for the flu to find it's way to groups such as the elderly who are most likely to suffer it's most serious symptoms, and every bit helps. That's why as many people should get it as possible.

 

[EdwardTeach]

Was surprised to see all the ads for flu shots when I was in the US, never seen that anywhere else.

In Germany doctors usually send you home when you ask them for a flu shot. Unless you have preconditions weaking your immune system, you're pregnant, newborn, old, or work in a hospital, there is really no reason to get a flu shot.
I think in the US this is more about the business behind it than the medical necessity.

Agreed, it is driven by business interests. In the UK only the weak (children, elderly) would be offered the vaccine as a matter of course.

 

[ShironRedshift]

Agreed, it is driven by business interests. In the UK only the weak (children, elderly) would be offered the vaccine as a matter of course.

Doesn't make sense. I mean, I can't speak for Europe, but in the United States the vaccine is dirt cheap (usually not more than a few bucks) and in many cases offered completely for free even without insurance. Like, even my trash-tier insurance completely covered it. If it's a mass money-making scheme, it doesn't seem like a very intelligently thought out one.

It really is exactly what it seems--attempting to minimize the amount of people who die from a virus as much as possible, but for some reason people come up for reasons not to do that because hell if I know. And even if it were true, everything I said in my previous post would still be true and still be reasons to get the vaccine anyway. How much of a profit-making operation it may or may not be is irrelevant to whether or not it's a good idea to get the vaccine anyway and if it helps to save lives.

 

[Guevara]

Thought this was relevant

Millennials Aren't Getting The Flu Shot Because What's The Point?

A new study commissioned by CityMD suggests that the majority of millennials aren't planning on getting a flu shot this year.

While 42 percent of the survey's 2,080 total respondents said they don't plan on being vaccinated this year, 52 percent of millennials surveyed said they won't get the flu shot.

When asked why, they gave the following reasons:

• 49% don't think it'll prevent them from getting the flu
• 29% think it could make them sick
• 25% don't want to spend the money
• 23% have never gotten the flu and don't think they need it
• 4% don't know where to get it

http://gothamist.com/2016/10/03/millennials_flu_whatever.php

$40 if you don't have insurance (!)

 

[YourMaster]

This seems to be one that's actually effective: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27402904

I wonder if they'll do a follow up study on longer term effectiveness.

 

[Quote]

I try to get them but i'm lazy and hate shots. Last one I got was a nose spray which was fine, but I guess the difference is it has a live virus and you're more likely to get sick and I did? Id do it again though.

 

[Xe4]

Thought this was relevant



http://gothamist.com/2016/10/03/millennials_flu_whatever.php

$40 if you don't have insurance (!)

It depends, some places have the shot for a lot cheaper. Costco has it for $15, and there are a lot of free clinics. Unless you live outside a major, or even minor city, there will also be free clinics around flu time, so if you know about them, the cost isn't really that prohibitive.

All in all, preventative medicine is still the cheapest optikn, for the individual and society. Getting the flu can cost you hundreds of even thousands of dollars in missed work and medical costs, particularly if you don't have insurance.