BBQMan
Member
Thats because its well established he has the most potential out of anyone in the group and the only limiting factor is his body.
Dragon Ball Super |OT6| Put your back into it.
- Thread starter ArchedThunder
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We're still bitching about power levels? Thought we were over this. What about the cycle?
One day global warming will destroy our species. Another form of intelligent life will rise up, better adapted to the new environment than we are. They will find the ruins of human civilization, uncover our histories, and spend decades trying to learn how to translate our languages. They will try to reconstruct our religious views, where we believed in the trickster god "Son Goku", and experienced a great schism when it was proposed that the creation of mortals, some Android 17, could defeat somehow him. Then Dragonball arguments will be preserved in museums until they destroy themselves too.
Also, the Kloblonians will deliberately doctor the history because they're offended that it goes against their own religious beliefs, thus replacing the main character of Dragonball with Qubob, which is later found to be ultimately derived from Yajirobe.
I'm fine with a power-up (real talk: everyone on the show needs one), I'm just annoyed at the lack of decent build-up. Like, is it so hard to show him doing some crazy training when mentioned at some point? It just feels insulting that they couldn't be bothered to try.
Chaotic-Strike
Banned
Frost needs to get some character development and turn out like like he was originally presented.
U6 could use another interesting character on their team besides Hit and Cabba.
U6 could use another interesting character on their team besides Hit and Cabba.
TheRealTalker
Banned
I get what you are saying but time restraints and deadlines likely make them toss in depth coverage and development to the side
I mean, we're talking like a 10 second quick cut. They could have even done it this very arc when Goku asks 18 where he is. It's not exactly a high bar to clear.
They were not showing 17 before Goku met him specifically. Only far away shots and stuff like this.
Would have killed what they were going for to have scenes like that.
Plus it would make no sense, because he didn't get that strong overnight. It took over a decade.
That being said, they had time to talk about it after the fight.
But maybe it will happen tomorrow.
I mean, you do that sort of quick scene just to show that he was training during all that time and not just sitting on his ass or fighting poachers. The idea is you prime the audience somehow to expect the power jump. Like 18 saying "Yea, he's apparently been training really hard for a while now" would be enough.
There's not much point in doing it after tho...
ArchedThunder
Banned
What if the point was for the audience to learn about his power jump when Goku did? If that's the case we'll probably know tomorrow I guess.
Er what ?
It's never implied he got that strong fighting poachers. He said he put some efforts into getting stronger. Fighting the human poachers isn't "effort" for someone like him. We don't know if he has faced alien poachers yet.
The point is the element of surprise, and avoiding the whiny people afterwards by having Goku simply ask "by the way, how did you get that strong ?! You're even stronger than Cell was !" "Well, turns out thanks to my infinite stamina, I can do that and that" and then you can show the clip.
There would have been nothing wrong with that. Explicit foreshadowing is definitely not a requirement. If they were doing this with everybody it'd get old fast, but 17 was an outsider. They didn't do that for Krilin, who got a mini arc right before this arc.
That doesn't mean they couldn't have primed the audience for it somehow. Any good twist will have been foreshadowed somehow, because otherwise the audience would just call bullshit. The classic example is The Sixth Sense, but everyone does it.
I don't mean they have to tell us how he got stronger or that the foreshadowing has to be explicit. Just that it should exist in some form, which it doesn't here. If it did so many people wouldn't have called bullshit.
The Silver
Member
they kinda feed into each other.
The reason you see some saying "he can't possibly be this strong" is because the show lacked an explantion of how he got there, he just showed up, they missed the journey.(and the journey to get stronger is pretty much the hallmark of shounen)
and we gotta remember that as mad as Frieza's power up made people, that was also before they went off the deep end and had Goku doing his universe punches and SSJ3 Gotenks being fodder to base Vegeta, skyrocketing their power beyond reproach and making it more unbelievable anyone could reach them by "normal" means.
Ive watched like 80+ NEP and never realised. They feel so short.
I dunno how I feel about this. If they give him a blue aura and once again dont explain whats happening, I'd be annoyed. I dont mind characters getting stronger but you have to explain saiyan transformations.
Not before having Buu heal Jiren to full first.
Byakuya769
Member
Only thing I'm saying about 17's strength:
I was happy to see another earth warrior go toe to toe with Goku. And I honestly don't care how because this series has historically been trash at power levels anyway.
I was happy to see another earth warrior go toe to toe with Goku. And I honestly don't care how because this series has historically been trash at power levels anyway.
The Silver
Member
I loved when Goku took the senzus when Gohan was fighting, I was cracking up thinking Goku could pull the same shit he did with Cell.
I think they still have a window to explain 17. They wanted to go for the surprise.
I think they did the right thing with 17 so far. With a character like 17, I think that surprise factor on how strong 17 turned out it crucial.
My biggest complaint is how Goku wasn't surprised that 17 was so strong.
I think they did the right thing with 17 so far. With a character like 17, I think that surprise factor on how strong 17 turned out it crucial.
My biggest complaint is how Goku wasn't surprised that 17 was so strong.
They're writing Goku like a moron.
That's why I'm hoping that if it doesn't get addressed tomorrow, it's addressed when 17 meets up with Piccolo and 18.
They clearly have to comment on his power. Goku is whatever honestly. He didn't question Trunks after all.
Mister "wish I'd get that power on my own" gave no shit that Trunks put him to shame.
That's why I'm hoping that if it doesn't get addressed tomorrow, it's addressed when 17 meets up with Piccolo and 18.
They clearly have to comment on his power. Goku is whatever honestly. He didn't question Trunks after all.
Mister "wish I'd get that power on my own" gave no shit that Trunks put him to shame.
That was my one thing as well. It didn't feel right with Goku.
Goku cares people are strong, not how they got strong. 17 didn't even think Goku would care about his family when he mentioned them, let alone how he got the power he has.
I think 18 or Krillin will bring it up.
I'm actually excited to see 17's and Krillin's interaction with each other, since we got a little from them in Z, but not much.
Goku cares people are strong, not how they got strong. 17 didn't even think Goku would care about his family when he mentioned them, let alone how he got the power he has.
I think 18 or Krillin will bring it up.
I'm actually excited to see 17's and Krillin's interaction with each other, since we got a little from them in Z, but not much.
I honestly thought that would happen as well. I would have died laughing if he did that shit again.
I think everyone was expecting something to happen. Maybe that was foreshadowing for the tournament.
*tournament somehow comes down to Gohan vs Jiren*
Gohan: I can take him, he's been worn down a lot through fights with my father, Vegeta, and 17.
*Goku tosses Jiren a senzu*
Gohan: WHY DO YOU KEEP DOING THAT?!
Tournament starts, Goku does his fight with Jiren first because he's not that bright. Goku feels something in his pocket, pulls out the sensu beans from the exhibition match.
Goku: "I forgot I had these."
Grand Priest: "Goku, you're disqualified for bringing consumable items to a tournament."
Goku: "Vegeta brought them in."
Both Goku and Vegeta get disqualified.
Piku_Ringo
Banned
Someone explain to me how strong is Immortal Zamas is to be able to send God Vegeta flying across a panel with his best Might Guy impersonation?
I could see Fembrolla killing someone, and then Zeno being excited about that, and getting rid of the no kill rule.
Though I do think with each episode, each rule will slowly be dropped.
Undead Fantasy
Member
Wouldn't surprise me knowning how AT likes to troll.
I mean, there's bad handling of power levels and then there's an android sub imperfect cell level getting in the SSJB Goku ballpark by training on Earth. I really didn't like this asspull, 17 being as strong or even stronger than SSJ3 would've been more than enough for the tournament.
Lmao
What's the difference? Not saying that as an accusation, I've actually genuinely been curious about this. How much power the the limit of what people think Android 17 could have achieved on that island in 13 years? What is it that makes that limit the limit?
For me it's the fact that Goku became a god and was trained by an angel to achieve his current level. No doubt that 17 could get MUCH stronger than he was in the Android/Cell saga during these 13 years, but this is just too much (and i'm not sure it was necessary for the story, although it's a bit early to tell).
I mean, I don't expect Tenshinan and Roshi to be Perfect Cell and Android 16 level.
Yeah except Golden Frieza and Trunks happened. 17 was better than both of them initially so they're consistent.
17 was stated to have more potential, but she can probably get pretty strong too. Not as strong though.
The really simple way was to have Android 17's barrier being able to absorb powers.
Have Goku fire the ki blast, have 17 absorb it, done.
:/
That'd be a pretty cool power tbh. And totally inline with Gero making stuff to kill Goku.
Freeza is an entirely different matter. He was a prodigy with the highest power level in the universe amongst mortals (except Buu... which was a demon anyway) without ever training. He built a galactic empire based on his strength. After he trained to pursue his vendetta, he unlocked an entirely new transformation that gave him immense power but he couldn't really control it and ended up losing the fight against both Goku and Vegeta. He was the main enemy of that movie/arc and still had some pretty significant drawbacks.
Trunks' power up was an asspull as well, but the false ssj blue was rage induced, and we have other examples of what rage can do (Vegeta hitting Beerus and trashing Black, Goku beating Black and Zamasu together, Black causing a distortion in space etc, likely even Freeza achieving his golden transformation was a combination of training+pure rage), while the second time his attack was something like the genkidama, and he drew power from Goku and Vegeta amongst other things.
Maybe there's also the fact that 18 was always in the anime and she never got really much stronger than she was, that too might alter perception of what an android can do, but either way it felt weird as hell. The scenario of the fight at sunset was kinda cool though.
Might have worked better if they gave a credible explanation for it it but i'm not sure how Gero would've ever seen god ki. It would've been cool though.
Iirc they explained in Z that 16-17-18 don't have anything of the sort because they have infinite stamina.
See, again, I don't think that matters. I think that the real reason that people are upset isn't that the rules are inconsistent, it's that they're being used to explain away too much and it's breaking suspension of disbelief for some people.
Another unspoken rule that I think is in play is that training in Dragonball is more effective when a precedent has been set. Like how it took Roshi years to master the Kamehameha, then Goku picked it up after one look, and Krillin and Yamcha figured it out a while after. Or how Raditz was at an incredible level that the Earthlings could barely touch, but when they learned that there was something stronger coming, they could all reach that level without needing any new kind of training.
I can foresee some sort of troll twist taking place in the tournament tbh, like one of Goku and Vegeta, or maybe even both getting eliminated early. I mean people assume that Jiren and Goku will be the last remaining two, but I don't think that will be the case. The Champa and Goku Black arcs taught me to never assume shit.
The way they trivialized previous trainings/enemies has always been my biggest gripe with DB, easily.
Still, the point is that in this tournament there are fighters that are incredibly less powerful than 17 was in Z, and they will likely have a decently big role in it (the tournament is about team work after all, and other than spending lots of episodes on secondary characters the anime already showed how good U11 is at this), so was there really a reason to make 17 around ssjb level and break suspension of disbelief like you said? SSJ3 is pretty damn strong, and nobody would've said anything if he was even considerably stronger than that. It would've been completely credible.
But Frieza's drawbacks only happened because he rushed after 4 months of training. We're talking 13 years here for 17.
17 was a lot stronger than Frieza without ever training too. He was stronger than Piccolo, the Super Saiyans, Frieza and his dad, and cell (that had to absorb millions of people to surpass 17).
He only got beaten thanks to time travel shenanigans. Which robbed him from his chance to try to get stronger.
Trunks got angry plenty of times though. More notably when Mai "died". Also, Trunks was putting up with SSR Black before actually transforming.
But even then if you consider that it's OK to have asspulls because "it's the saiyan thing to get angry" then just accept that it's the "androids" thing to be easily better than them, at the cost of not getting transformations (not that they're any useful
). 18 never cared for fighting, she cared about fancy clothes and money. 17 was the fighter.
Because they need heavy hitters in the duo/trio.
Gohan, 17, Goku and Vegeta. Then the rest will have the special techniques, and the strategists etc...
You can't have only 2 god tier people when there's hit , Jiren, Toppo and Brola.
Plus we are finally moving past only Goku and Vegeta being relevant against the strongest people. Finally. And an earthling does it at that. Personally I'm glad. I'd rather focus on fun, cool battles, nice story boarding / artistic direction and great cast with variety in their personalities, looks and fighting styles, than whatever "credibility" the power levels had. Super was awful on that front from day one, it got worse while everything else got better, the pros far outweigh the cons IMO.
A Pretty Panda
fuckin' called it, man
So how long until the Limit Break X Survivor single?
ArchedThunder
Banned
I think it's already out.
Undead Fantasy
Member
Its the training method. No other character in the series has had that big of a power increase with just regular solo Earth training.
He's a disgraced celebrity in his Universe
It's going to be fun to watch him try to go back to his glory days
The Silver
Member
Frost's heel turn was like Stone Cold's turn, fun and entertaining in the moment, but it wasn't best for business. We deserved good Frost.
RareFantasy64
Member
Gohan's look when he wins the tournament solo.
He looks so much better with the bang
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