I see. That's fair enough.
Dragon Ball Super |OT6| Put your back into it.
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I see. That's fair enough.
unknownstranger
Member
Uses Solar Flare more than Tien.
Calls it Tien's thing.
Wikipedia is more credible and accurate than Goku.
This got me thinking. Doesn't Solar Flare require a sun? How would Krillan be able to use it in the tournament?
Krillin is an average fighter but a brilliant scientist
Fake sun i guess
Romars202129
Member
Uses Solar Flare more than Tien.
Calls it Tien's thing.
Wikipedia is more credible and accurate than Goku.
I mean, its Tiens move. Krillin just won the fire sale of his moves from when Toriyama decided to forget him.
Freshmaker
I am Korean.
He built up his body for that by swinging the Z sword around a lot before he sat on his butt tho.
GuessMyUserName
Member
I don't know how Krillin is supposed to be able to use Solar Flare x100 when it's a massive AoE attack that would flash all the U7 warriors
It was never really suggested Gohan got stronger from that. When Gohan said he did, Goku wasn't sure. So if he did get stronger, the power different was really small.
sunglasses only exist in their universe. im sure gohan has a few spares to give out.
ArtHands
Thinks buying more servers can fix a bad patch
Maybe he'll use it when he's the only U7 fighter left. Either way it doesnt matter if his U7 teammates get affected since its not like the other universes warriors can strike them either when they got blinded. Krillin is the only one who can strike during that brief period of time (not counting any possibility of any fighter who is blind visually and sense his opponents by ki)
Doubt he'll use it though. I think he'll use a limited form of the move so it only affect the opposing fighters near his vicinity
roflwaffles
Member
Didn't Gohan struggle holding the Z Sword in SSJ2 at first and then was able to swing it regularly in base? Been a while since I've seen those scenes.
Yes Gohan getting this strong so fast is stupid as well, I think some people are more okay with this because they've felt cheated that he was trash for almost 90 episodes and Z made it seem like Mystic was a permanent thing and was basically retconned so they could do a 5 SSJ ritual scene in BoG.
Not trying to justify it, I think its less dumb than 17 being SSB tier or Frieza going from weaker than Gero to stronger than SSB in 4 months but dumb is still dumb.
Yes Gohan getting this strong so fast is stupid as well, I think some people are more okay with this because they've felt cheated that he was trash for almost 90 episodes and Z made it seem like Mystic was a permanent thing and was basically retconned so they could do a 5 SSJ ritual scene in BoG.
Not trying to justify it, I think its less dumb than 17 being SSB tier or Frieza going from weaker than Gero to stronger than SSB in 4 months but dumb is still dumb.
It's not less dumb that Gohan does it 3 hours when the other two did it in 4 months and 13 years respectively, no. Because we have seen Gohan train with little to no result for an entire year and now magically the same exact training allows him to break all limits. There's no mystery card ( which is terrible writing too, don't get me wrong ) to play like Frieza and 17 that had never trained and have an unknown biology.
I wouldn't call it little to no result since Gohan at the beginning of this arc was clearly stronger than Gohan in Resurrection 'F'. The same with the filler episodes.
The problem is going from that to probably being equal to Goku at his best.
GhostTrick
Banned
It is less dumb considering it was something he had already. Gohan didn't get stronger, Gohan did get back to his former level (even that isn't sure). Although, yes, the 3 hours thing is silly. And it'll be silly if Gohan holds his own against SSB Goku. I know 17 is your fav, but it's still stupid, despite biology or whatever when you take into account the environnement for training.
At least, they didn't make Tien or Roshi overpowered.
I'm not considering that he made progress until he got his mystic form back. Once again I have nothing against him getting that form back, I just thought it was anticlimactic how they handled it but I'm fine with that.
I'm bothered by what's happening after he gets it back to get him stronger than Goku within that very short time span.
I disagree. Gohan got more consistent, but he didn't get much stronger.
He one shotted Tagoma that was supposedly "stronger than Gohan at his peak".
Yet Goku and Piccolo's comments definitely didn't imply Gohan was crazy beyond his original level. On the contrary.
Did you read what I said at all ?
I said Frieza and 17's situations were not good writing either. I just said they had a mystery element to them, which they do. It's lazy writing, I never said otherwise.
As for Gohan... Just wait to see the upcoming episode. Based off what you said, I think you'll agree with me.
I'm not considering that he made progress until he got his mystic form back. Once again I have nothing against him getting that form back, I just thought it was anticlimactic how they handled it but I'm fine with that.
I'm bothered by what's happening after he gets it back to get him stronger than Goku within that very short time span.
I disagree. Gohan got more consistent, but he didn't get much stronger.
He one shotted Tagoma that was supposedly "stronger than Gohan at his peak".
Yet Goku and Piccolo's comments definitely didn't imply Gohan was crazy beyond his original level. On the contrary.
Did you read what I said at all ?
I said Frieza and 17's situations were not good writing either. I just said they had a mystery element to them, which they do. It's lazy writing, I never said otherwise.
As for Gohan... Just wait to see the upcoming episode. Based off what you said, I think you'll agree with me.
He did get stronger because when Gohan asked if he could be part of the tournament in Episode 30, Goku took one look at Gohan and marveled for a couple of seconds. This shows that he not only got stronger, but it was enough for Goku to feel it.
Also, Goku noted that Gohan isn't as strong as he should be, not that he wasn't as strong as he was before like Vegeta did back in the Buu Saga. To me this reads like Goku saying, 'yeah he's strong, but he could be so much more'. It wouldn't make much sense for Gohan to be exactly where he was at several years ago and the episode never implied that. Only that he got his Ultimate form back, hence 'his old power'.
Ok first of all, it's hard to give any credence to Goku's excitement regarding people's power. (especially in Super)
But you're wrong. Goku went there to ask Piccolo even though he could feel Gohan. When Gohan said he'd like to join, Goku showed clear doubt and Gohan had to state "Don't worry I'll be fine". The "marvel" you describe is his regular facial expression just checking out Gohan's body that probably got more muscular (remember his FnF body lol), but nothing implied Goku felt Gohan being stronger.
I also think you're twisting what Goku said. He didn't say "Considering Gohan's potential, he should be much stronger than this right now". He said "Considering Gohan's original power, he should have been able to do better than that". This is clearly contextualizing his remark regarding Gohan's level.
Anyway, it does, in any case, imply that Gohan was disappointing. Yet in those short hours he's going to be the opposite of "disappointing", so that leads to the same issues.
They had Vegeta say that Gohan had the biggest potential, but that's not at all what Goku said here. The choice of words matter.
So you had Gohan training with piccolo in the mountain stating he wants to get stronger to protect his family and loved ones. That's already where he was a year ago. Yet he remained disappointing.
The only thing that is changing is Piccolo's miraculous training (god forbids he helps the other members of the team heh) that comes out of nowhere and will require a few hours to get him beyond Goku, and I have a problem with that.
Plus your theory makes Piccolo's level wonky.
If Gohan was that much stronger than he was, then explain how Piccolo can kick his ass so easily.
Because you can't have it both ways. If Gohan in super saiyan was able to one shot Tagoma that was "beyond Gohan at his peak (aka ultimate Gohan)" and he got much stronger than that, then Piccolo is not equal to SS2, he's in fact, far stronger than ultimate Gohan from the Buu saga.
Again, we don't know yet if he'll get stronger than Goku. Holding his own does not mean stronger than Goku.
I used this example before, but, SSG Goku hold his own against Beerus, even though Beerus is far stronger than Goku.
We've had several hints implying Gohan surpasses his father.
And since Goku is gonna end up using the mystic form-ish, It makes me think it's because he recognized Gohan as superior.
Now I doubt Gohan can beat Kaioken blue x10 obviously, but I'm assuming they're going to nerf Blue Kaioken hard and explain why Goku needs something else.
BBQMan
Member
Where does this Goku Mystic form stuff come from? Are you just basing it on the opening?
Yes I am. It's also present in the ED, which proves it wasn't random.
If I remember rightly, they've been using the general weaknesses of the Kaioken in terms of straining the body, right? Like when Goku used it for the first time (with Blue) against Hit and was totally out of action for a few episodes, and afterwards he's only really been using it in short bursts. So a new transformation would be the kind of thing he can use for extended periods without screwing up his body.
donkey show
Member
Kaioken x10 strained his body.
He used Kaioken only once in the Black Arc, but since that he has been using it frequently and without showing any sign that he is being strained by it.
So as far as we know Kaioken x2 x4 x5 etc... are fine, it's x10 that's too much.
Plus he can always do what he did against Frieza, and use it in short burst to avoid getting a constant strain.
And it's a problem because Goku is already on top of basically everyone, he's the last character that needs an arbitrary cheat card that makes him twice, three times, or ten times stronger on demand.
It wasn't doubt. He looked happy to the point that he dumped Piccolo upon the chance to take Gohan. Also:
"Considering Gohan's original power, he should have been able to do better than that."
Reads like I said, considering where he was at before, he should be much better. Not that, he isn't even where he was several years ago, which is what Vegeta said about Gohan during the Buu Saga.
Goku also did expressed disappointment. It was more, 'he's good, but he can be great!'. Goku had nothing but praised for Gohan's performance during the exhibition match and even call him strong.
Yes, Gohan said that at the end of the Resurrection 'F' Saga and he did get stronger. At the same time, it seems he was doing off and on training on top of being too focused on protecting people, which was holding him back from his true power. Gohan had to become a warrior like his dad and just just protect stuff.
And how did Piccolo kicked Gohan's ass, he got stronger. There's nothing wonky about that. So I can 'have it both ways' as you put it. Gohan got stronger, but so did Piccolo who not only retrained Gohan, but he kept training himself since he wasn't sitting in a desk all day.
But, it's easy to see that we're not going to see eye to eye on this, so before this goes into out usual blackhole of banter, I'll stop it here.
Goku used the Kaioken several times since then with no ill effect. That includes Merged Zamasu when he got most of his limbs broken. So he doesn't suffer the same drawback.
ManDudeChild
Member
You're probably right, it's such a shame. The power creep in Super was taken to the extreme and never looked back during the U6 tournament arc when Hit was able to stand up ti Kaioken maxed outwith SSB.
Yeah, but like versus Frieza it doesn't cut it when there's a large, constant power difference - it's good for getting a leg up when your of relatively similar strengths. A constant power up is needed for matching, when you've got that gulf. Though, Goku not teaching anyone else the Kaioken is quite disappointing. That could've been used ages ago to give the humans some form of power boost. Saiyans get their transformations, Piccolo fuses every so often. They could have easily made it a plot point that humans could use the Kaioken and experience a much lesser strain.
This expression means suprise. The lifted eyebrows, mouth open, leaves no doubt. To which Gohan had to justify himself saying he'd be fine cause he trained, something that apparently wasn't super obvious, and then Goku was happy, but in no way did Goku say anything that implied Gohan got stronger. Not ANYTHING.
As for Piccolo, remember he's vomit. He got trashed by Tagoma, even a weaker Gohan is a better choice so that's not exactly significant that he'd drop Piccolo for Gohan.
I fully disagree.
He said Gohan was out of practice and that he tried his best despite this.
While making this face.
Wow so proud.
As for the match itself, Goku is nice to everyone after they fight. Hell he just fucking praised Roshi.
This is cute and all but that's forgetting this :
This clearly implies that Gohan wasn't getting much stronger and on the contrary, he was slacking and wouldn't be of any help towards Trunks.
But unlike Roshi, Frieza, 17 and whatever, we have seen Piccolo constantly training with marginal power increase, and somehow just now he was able to break the wall he had for a decade and that was never mentioned or shown, and he has been featured in the show on a regular basis, nobody has ever mentioned he got that strong, and we're talking a lot of stronger than ultimate Gohan here. That doesn't make any sense.
You say that before producing a wall text, otherwise you basically go like "hey you're wrong, but I don't want to be contradicted so I'm out of the debate".
It's not so much a problem versus new enemies, as it is a problem because it undermines every other character on the team.
Because they're all weaker than Goku by default, except maybe Gohan. But then Goku can arbitrarily go "Times x5" or x10 or x20 if he feels like it, and go far beyond them in an instant. Which means if Goku needs that, the enemies are far too strong. And if he doesn't need that, then he can't really lose because he's not going all out... Plus the consequences are not immediate like they used to be so he can use it in dire situations and just have bad effects 2 weeks later, whatever.
It's such a nasty design and they need to get rid of it IMO.
RocknRola
Member
Everyone else is in their "final" forms in the ED as well. Dat aura.
That's just Steamy Goku. I'm sure Vegeta will have a Dreamy form too!
Baleoce
Member
Everyone else is in their "final" forms in the ED as well. Dat aura.
I have to admit, it'll be a little funny if all this pushing Gohan back in to relevancy just leads to teaching Goku to learn Ultimate / Mystic so he can have a new form to win the arc with.
This expression means suprise. The lifted eyebrows, mouth open, leaves no doubt. To which Gohan had to justify himself saying he'd be fine cause he trained, something that apparently wasn't super obvious, and then Goku was happy, but in no way did Goku say anything that implied Gohan got stronger. Not ANYTHING.
As for Piccolo, remember he's vomit. He got trashed by Tagoma, even a weaker Gohan is a better choice so that's not exactly significant that he'd drop Piccolo for Gohan.
I fully disagree.
He said Gohan was out of practice and that he tried his best despite this.
While making this face.
Wow so proud.
As for the match itself, Goku is nice to everyone after they fight. Hell he just fucking praised Roshi.
This is cute and all but that's forgetting this :
This clearly implies that Gohan wasn't getting much stronger and on the contrary, he was slacking and wouldn't be of any help towards Trunks.
But unlike Roshi, Frieza, 17 and whatever, we have seen Piccolo constantly training with marginal power increase, and somehow just now he was able to break the wall he had for a decade and that was never mentioned or shown, and he has been featured in the show on a regular basis, nobody has ever mentioned he got that strong, and we're talking a lot of stronger than ultimate Gohan here. That doesn't make any sense.
You say that before producing a wall text, otherwise you basically go like "hey you're wrong, but I don't want to be contradicted so I'm out of the debate".
He wouldn't be surprised if Gohan did grow stronger. You're also forgetting the smile and Piccolo was able to fight Gohan in his base form. So Piccolo also got stronger so he wasn't the same 'vomit' that fought Tagoma.
Goku clearly said was proud after Gohan's fight, unless you think Goku was lying which he sucks at. Goku doesn't praise people unless he thinks they have improved, which is why he praised Roshi because h was stronger than before. The same with Kirllin. If Gohan was the same strength the whole time, Goku wouldn't be calling him strong and good. He would bluntly said he sucked, just like he does all the time to Piccolo. And being out of practice doesn't mean he didn't get any stronger, especially since we have seen Gohan train.
Gohan didn't have "warrior mindset". Piccolo explained this in the training episode. Gohan had the motive to get stronger, but he was blinded by his need to protect and couldn't see the big picture. He needed to move away from just protecting and be a fighter. I thought that was clear.
And? Piccolo trained for three years and got 100x stronger. So him training Gohan off and on for a few months and jumping in power wouldn't be that shocking. Plus Piccolo probably trained extra hard after Frost played him and how he was basically the load on the U7 team. And honestly, we have no clue how powerful Piccolo was since he last fight with Imperfect Cell. Piccolo's power has been pure guess work until recently. The only thing we knew about Piccolo was who was stronger than him. On top of that, Roshi somehow broke his wall at his old age without anyone seeming to noticed.
As for this "hey you're wrong, but I don't want to be contradicted so I'm out of the debate"
For god's sakes, how did you get that? I said I was ending the debate because I know good and well how this ends (or never end). The fact of the matter is this debate like will go in circles like we're doing right now. I only answered this last point to clear some stuff up.
I am trying to be respectful to you and say, we agree to disagree. In other words, I acknowledge your opinion, but I don't agree. Isn't that good enough without you thinking I am looking down my nose at you?
This so reads like a '"Goku's OP, please nerf!" (I am being humorous)
Being serious, if they go as far as to show Goku using the Kaioken without consequences, it shows the opposing of nerfing the Kaioken. And if Goku has an 'Ultimate form' that you think exists he should be able to used the Kaioken even more easily since 'Ultimate' has no energy issues and it's basically a new base form. Meaning, Goku gets even more broken.
Tal Shiar Agent
Banned
If we aren't getting a Xenoverse 3 this year, which I don't think we are, I hope we get a season 2 of DLC and get Tournament of Power characters like Jiren, Caulifa, and Kale.
airmangataosenai
Member
Why? Gohan in SS2 form was shown already to be a match for SS2 Goku and this is a notable powerup. If anything this is the least questionable power jump the show has done since Frieza.
What? No he wasn't. When they fought in Episode 75 they were both clowning around and they were only Super Saiyans not Super Saiyan 2. And Goku sandbags so we don't even know if he was going all out. This is the same person who used Super Saiyan to fight Krillin. Or how about when Roshi fought Goku evenly in this last episode?
Blackleg-sanji1
Banned
Sometimes I wonder if ppl truly underestimate the massive jump that goku and vegeta went thru after buu all the way till now. While the others just relaxed. Gohan is great , mystic is fantastic but no he absolutely still shouldn't be any where on par with his father after his short time training
now that Mystic is a form, we have to see that it is clearly a bigger multiplier than even SSJ3
early Buu saga Gohan was weaker than Cell saga Gohan, and Goku was beyond both; his SSJ3 had trouble facing all the Buus, but Mystic Gohan clowned on Super Buu and only had trouble once Buu absorbed Gotenks, a form that could only be surpassed by Vegitto
so as long as Gohan is stronger than Cell saga Gohan, he could be ridic powerful; and now he has an adult body to do it. if FTrunks could do it without any help, Gohan under Piccolo with a decent training regime can do it too
Adult Mystic Gohan should easily match the old Vegitto level, and that is just below Beerus, him going toe to toe with SSB is not farfetched
early Buu saga Gohan was weaker than Cell saga Gohan, and Goku was beyond both; his SSJ3 had trouble facing all the Buus, but Mystic Gohan clowned on Super Buu and only had trouble once Buu absorbed Gotenks, a form that could only be surpassed by Vegitto
so as long as Gohan is stronger than Cell saga Gohan, he could be ridic powerful; and now he has an adult body to do it. if FTrunks could do it without any help, Gohan under Piccolo with a decent training regime can do it too
Adult Mystic Gohan should easily match the old Vegitto level, and that is just below Beerus, him going toe to toe with SSB is not farfetched
Not surprised. This is the same fanbase that insists Super Saiyan 2 Trunks was even with Super Saiyan 2 Goku, despite Goku not doing anything but blocking and catching Trunks' fists in mid-attack. He did more movements fighting Krillin, Buu, and Roshi.
This becomes extra annoying when fans used the manga and claimed that Super Saiyan 3 Trunks is even with Super Saiyan 3 Goku, when in the anime Goku clearly one-shots Trunks.
What was hot in the Buu Saga isn't hot now, especially since Super Saiyan 3 is a multiplier of a Saiyans' base form and not a set level.
I again state, Ultimate Gohan got one-shotted by Beerus. Rage Vegeta took attacks from Beerus and managed to keep up somewhat. Super Saiyan God countered, attacked, and hurt Beerus on top of taking brutal attacks and Goku absorbed that power. And that is before Goku and Vegeta did all the training with Whis.
You severely underestimate the power jump. And Future Trunks got a brand new transformation which has no comparison, compared to Ultimate that we saw Beerus, Rage Vegeta, and Super Saiyan God Goku crap on.
Beerus vs Mystic Gohan was already a fight against a weakened Gohan. besides, it's not like SSJ3 gave Beerus much trouble
BoG did not happen immediately after Buu; it is around 4 years afterwards. RoF will happen only a year later, so you cannot infer much from Beerus one shotting Mystic Gohan cause he was almost as weak as he was gonna be in RoF
BoG did not happen immediately after Buu; it is around 4 years afterwards. RoF will happen only a year later, so you cannot infer much from Beerus one shotting Mystic Gohan cause he was almost as weak as he was gonna be in RoF
Just to chip in, 17's jump in strength is infinitely worse than Gohan's. If you have a problem with what's happening to Gohan atm, you have a severe problem with 17.
I personally don't mind either as I know this is necessary to ensure Super is not the Goku and Vegeta show.
Yup. I'm not as positive as you are with everything DBS does and I feel this is a massive mistake if we look at how this impacts the arc and characters.
This is the opposite of GT situation. The premise is absolutely terrible but has the potential to be executed perfectly. If that happens, I'll be happy with the arc but I have no real hope they'll do this justice.
I personally don't mind either as I know this is necessary to ensure Super is not the Goku and Vegeta show.
Yup. I'm not as positive as you are with everything DBS does and I feel this is a massive mistake if we look at how this impacts the arc and characters.
Frieza should never be brought back. I have no faith they will do justice to him and they are continuing to tarnish his legacy.
I can't buy for one second that Goku, Vegeta, Gohan, Piccolo and Krillin would even be remotely okay with fighting alongside Frieza. He's killed/tortured all of them except Goku. It is not within their characters to work with someone so inherently evil. The whole of the Cell saga was about Gohan having to accept that Cell was completely evil largely because he had Frieza's cells in him.
I'm also not happy with this discarding Buu. I'd find Buu's involvement far more interesting and pleasing than watching Frieza inevitably betray everyone at some point. And again it's not within his character at all to befriend everyone. If they do that, I'll probably stop watching Super all together.
I can't buy for one second that Goku, Vegeta, Gohan, Piccolo and Krillin would even be remotely okay with fighting alongside Frieza. He's killed/tortured all of them except Goku. It is not within their characters to work with someone so inherently evil. The whole of the Cell saga was about Gohan having to accept that Cell was completely evil largely because he had Frieza's cells in him.
I'm also not happy with this discarding Buu. I'd find Buu's involvement far more interesting and pleasing than watching Frieza inevitably betray everyone at some point. And again it's not within his character at all to befriend everyone. If they do that, I'll probably stop watching Super all together.
This is the opposite of GT situation. The premise is absolutely terrible but has the potential to be executed perfectly. If that happens, I'll be happy with the arc but I have no real hope they'll do this justice.
If Frieza stays in the mix, this could arguably make Super on GT level for me lol. It's such a dumb decision all round.
I expect them to tell him he can wish for whatever he wants on the dragon balls if he wins. He instead goes for the Super dragon balls instead and this could potentially start a new arc.
He may have been weakened, but not enough to lose his Ultimate form or for Piccolo not to freak out when he lost in one hit. There is absolutely no comparison to Super Saiyan God and Ultimate, and Super Saiyan God is Goku's base/Super Saiyan and Goku has gotten even stronger since then.
leatherhat
Member
"Hey
there's no killing allowed!"
Ok
They better give Tien an opportunity to show his stuff. Last week was a travesty.
Frieza
Ok
They better give Tien an opportunity to show his stuff. Last week was a travesty.
RareFantasy64
Member
I'm curious to see if we will get
new promo art of the adjusted lineup and a new opening/ending with Frieza
flintstryker
Banned
Reading these arguments is rather fascinating as I'm fairly sure you guys put way more thought into your points than the writers did.
That is true of almost every form of fiction.
we don't know if it is possible to lose the form
the problem in RoF was that his body was too weak to handle a SSJ2 like transformation; he gets the fury boost but his body just got overloaded
again, Beerus clowns on _everyone_ in BoG. only Vegeta can get a few hits in. Buu, Piccolo, SSJ3, they all get pwned by Beerus so you somehow centering on Mystic Gohan is weird
and again, the whole thing about base Goku being SSG is ridic and it is something that was quickly forgotten once BoG and RoF were over; they have clear godly auras in RoF when doing this whole thing, and the form has been quickly forgotten in favor of just going SSGSS
flintstryker
Banned
True but it's way sillier in db that shows fuck all in terms of regardless to consistency, if the arguments were about say HxH I'd be able to buy it but with DB I see a random powerup and just shrug and accept it without trying to think too much about why or how it happened I mean if I did I would be wondering how the fuck Roshi's arm wasn't broken from a punch clash with Goku
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