Dragon Ball Super |OT6| Put your back into it.
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SolVanderlyn
Thanos acquires the fully powered Infinity Gauntlet in The Avengers: Infinity War, but loses when all the superheroes team up together to stop him.
I hope we never get XV3 and get a proper fighting game with an adventure mode. Like Budokai 3
BoG is like the pilot episode of a TV show. Shows core concepts but largely doesn't know what it wants to be yet and feels off compared to the series proper
RareFantasy64
Member
Agreed. I want essentially a new game in the Budokai series based on the Tournament of Power. Imagine all those characters
What does knowing that he can lose the form have to do that we know that Ultimate is massively inferior to Super Saiyan God?
And it wasn't forgotten about at all. In Resurrection 'F' Saga, it make it clear that Goku's base form has no god ki, yet he still kicked Frieza's ass. When he used Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan, everyone was confused since they couldn't sense Goku anymore and thought he turned into a Super Saiyan God.
Look at the episodes for Resurrection 'F' before stating such things. Better yet, just read the freaking script after Goku goes blue.
Even if that was true, he was Ultimate in the retelling, which Super is based on. So Ultimate Gohan is less than fodder to Super Saiyan God. In fact, he performed worse in the retelling than he did in the movie since he at least grabbed Beerus in the movie and it took two-shots to take him down.
You guys can keep trying to rewrite history or what the show have shown us but these are the facts. Ultimate is weak before Super Saiyan God and Goku absorbed that power into his base/Super Saiyan. This has not been retcon.
Roshi didn't break his arm because Goku was fighting him at his level. Ki control has been explained several times in the show. While I agree with most of your posts, it's odd that you used this example when the show gave an in-universe reason.
Tal Shiar Agent
Banned
Only if it has a character creator.
donkey show
Member
*Prays to Dimps*
Goku's mystic form likely just looks like SSJ with black hair.
I dunno if it'll be more powerful than his Blue form, though. Unless Goku's potential is higher than Gohan's, which conflicts with established lore. I think Goku is more or less Mystic level in his base form. They've already stated in Super that Goku and Vegeta in their current states can't get all that much stronger, so it's like Goku needs a genuine new form to advance rather than just a Mystic boost.
I dunno if it'll be more powerful than his Blue form, though. Unless Goku's potential is higher than Gohan's, which conflicts with established lore. I think Goku is more or less Mystic level in his base form. They've already stated in Super that Goku and Vegeta in their current states can't get all that much stronger, so it's like Goku needs a genuine new form to advance rather than just a Mystic boost.
SenjutsuSage
Banned
They're just stronger for a variety of reasons, and power has never just been about raw energy level exactly, but every bit as much a mental thing or about their mindset as a warrior. Goku when training with Gohan in the room of spirit and time experienced a version of Gohan he knew to be more or less unstoppable for the upcoming battle.
Gohan took the beating for a time that he took not because the power wasn't there, but because something hadn't yet clicked in his own mind to trigger the power that Goku already knew to be there. So Gohan has proven how he can go from shaky and unsure, and generally not that powerful or threatening, to one of the universe's deadliest and combat ready warriors in a snap.
This is why nobody should be surprised about a far more mature Gohan who re-aquired lost power having his mental state of mind come together in just the right way to Grant him previously unimaginable power.
Gohan's super Saiyan 2 was always more special and potent back then, and I'm sure now that whatever new height he reaches will be similarly special or potent.
Gohan's potential has always been his kaioken, except it places zero strain on his body when that potential awakens. Gohan's potential is whatever the situation needs it to be. Throughout the series he has awakened it in dribs and drabs, but couldn't sustain. When it comes together in a sustainable way with further tutelage he's more dangerous.
Gohan took the beating for a time that he took not because the power wasn't there, but because something hadn't yet clicked in his own mind to trigger the power that Goku already knew to be there. So Gohan has proven how he can go from shaky and unsure, and generally not that powerful or threatening, to one of the universe's deadliest and combat ready warriors in a snap.
This is why nobody should be surprised about a far more mature Gohan who re-aquired lost power having his mental state of mind come together in just the right way to Grant him previously unimaginable power.
Gohan's super Saiyan 2 was always more special and potent back then, and I'm sure now that whatever new height he reaches will be similarly special or potent.
Gohan's potential has always been his kaioken, except it places zero strain on his body when that potential awakens. Gohan's potential is whatever the situation needs it to be. Throughout the series he has awakened it in dribs and drabs, but couldn't sustain. When it comes together in a sustainable way with further tutelage he's more dangerous.
Ultimate form is being revised as a classical transformation similar to SSJ at the moment. Unless they state it in Super, it has no real ties to potential or anything. It's just a form that surpasses SSJ2 for Gohan.
That was said back in the Champa Saga and Goku and Vegeta clearly got stronger since then. Vegeta alone went from being destroyed by Black to beating the crap out of him after using the Hyperbolic Time Chamber half a day. Goku can also used the Kaioken more easily since he only had a 10% chance of just actuating it in the Champa Saga, now he used it twice with no problem.
Vegeta also said in the Future Trunks Saga, 'Saiyans have no limits'.
It was never implied that Gohan's Super Saiyan was more special.
You can't keep brushing off every single one of Goku's fights as him holding back. SSJ Goku vs. SSJ Gohan in ep. 75 WOULD validate Ultimate Gohan being above SSJ3 Goku now and vice-versa if it comes to pass in episode 90. The scaling works out. Gohan was eager to fight in episode 75, you don't know exactly what he was doing off-screen before that point. The dialogue about him not being at his original power could just refer to the Ultimate form rather than actual power level. The whole Piccolo episode could just then be about removing his mental blocks and the tangible result could then be getting that Ultimate form back.
Blackleg-sanji1
Banned
Training for years after buu saga+with a god=training with piccolo
Tal Shiar Agent
Banned
Gohan gets a metaphysical fandom vindication power boost.
I mean, we've had holding hands with the power of friendship, 4 months training with a Frieza henchman, generic rage, and park ranging so far. I see 0 issues with a character who's been shown to improve faster than the rest of the cast when needed doing it yet again.
Piccolo is a god!
Because Goku does hold back, or should I assume Krillin is stronger than Super Saiyan Goku since he was able to 'hold back' a Kamehameha form Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Goku and Roshi is equal to base form Goku? We also know for a fact he held back against 17 because he said he did.
Super Saiyan is not a level. If Goku's has a higher base form than Gohan, it doesn't matter if Ultimate has a higher multiplier or whatever to Super Saiyan 3. That is why base form Copy-Vegeta tanked hits from Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks.
And we know that Gohan wasn't really training all the time, otherwise Piccolo wouldn't talk about getting his soft body in shape.
A proper FG similar to Street Fighter, Guilty Gear or Marvel would be great. Hyper DBZ is a good point of reference.
BladeoftheImmortal
Member
Wait, is that bra?
NeonZ
Member
Bulma from the first arc of DB. She wore that outfit.
re: base form. we don't know how strong non-golden Freeza is. he clearly is stronger than before, but we don't know how much, particularly cause now it is an intermediate form. we know Golden was stronger than SSB but had stamina problems, but that's it
base Goku is stronger than regular freeza in the present, which means base Goku is now at least beyond what SSJ1 was back in the day, but that does not immediately mean base form is a SSG equivalent
re: Gohan
again, you are stuck thinking that Mystic has a set power level, when it is clearly now a transformation that comes with its own multiplier; if Gohan was weak in BoG, Mystic Gohan was also weak. Beerus beat both SSJ3 and Gohan easily: can you conclude anything about either? nope
I didn't talk about levels here, I'm going by your own logic with regards to scaling. Your whole premise is that Goku was holding back against Gohan. I'm saying IF this is not the case (and there's no hard evidence either way, only fan speculation) then you have to admit that the scaling works out to Ultimate Gohan > SSJ3 Goku going by Buu Saga multipliers. Piccolo's manner of speaking could be construed as Gohan's warrior spirit not being up to par. Episode 90's results can shed light on 75 and vice-versa. Just like how 17's upcoming performance will shed light on his episode.
BladeoftheImmortal
Member
Just confused since she wasn't that young in GT
ArchedThunder
Banned
He actually trained to do just that, remember?
He wanted to torture Goku without killing him right away.
We have an idea of how strong true form Frieza is. In is weakest form without training he put holes through Gohan and one-shotted Piccolo. On Namek, Frieza weakest form had a power level 530,00. His full power true form had a power level of 130 million. That is a 226% percent jump in power. So even if we low ball first form Frieza and say he's only as strong as Majin Vegeta, that is a giant boots that is beyond anything from previous sagas.
Goku's base is way, way, way beyond Super Saiyan Goku at any point before absorbing god ki.
I am not, I said the opposite in fact. Even if Gohan's base is Perfect Cell's level and he got whatever Ultimate gave him, he still would be far below Super Saiyan God Goku. It wood's even be where Rage Vegeta was. And, it should be noted, it was never stated in Battle of Gods Super or movie that Gohan actually got weaker. That was only said in Resurrection 'F'.
Okay, lets used your logic that Super Saiyan Goku = Super Saiyan Gohan. He still be way weaker than Goku since Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan's multiplier is why higher than Ultimate to Super Saiyan 3 because Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan is a stronger transformation than Super Saiyan God. The same transformation that took Goku from being two-shotted by Beerus to trading hits with him. Gohan would need more than a night of level grinding to reached Goku's god level.
the power level numbers are meaningless without
-a unit (so we know what they are really measuring)
-current power levels
particularly since Babidi uses a different scale of power level that doesn't fit with the freeza one, so we know at least one of them is measuring something else, partially
besides, applying percentages to a number you don't know the meaning of, and that you don't even know if it is a lineal scale is ridiculous
-a unit (so we know what they are really measuring)
-current power levels
particularly since Babidi uses a different scale of power level that doesn't fit with the freeza one, so we know at least one of them is measuring something else, partially
besides, applying percentages to a number you don't know the meaning of, and that you don't even know if it is a lineal scale is ridiculous
There are not since we can get exact percentage of the characters, especially Frieza. We know that Frieza's weakest form is 226% weaker than his final form. That is a fact, whether you like it or not. Basically, Frieza going form his weakest form to his full power form is the different between base form Goku and Super Saiyan 3 almost. It's a giant different.
What doesn't Babidi's scale have to do with this?
RocknRola
Member
I thought that was just to get stronger in general
My bad then.Say what you will, but this "move", troll or not, definitely sent the fanbase into a frenzy! Toei knows what's up!
sleverfunk
Member
I remembered that I had a dream yesterday that Necalli have SSJ4 V-trigger.
Where is it states that super saiyan transformations are multipliers? If so, what are they? When I was way into power levels like 15 years ago, I thought i read it was stated that super saiyan transformations were a bias (so +5000000 or whatever) and not a gain. I thought it was only the great ape form that was a multiplier (10x) and maybe Kaioken.
ArchedThunder
Banned
Vegeta lookin like a Mortal Kombat ninja.
I thought that was just to get stronger in general
Say what you will, but this "move", troll or not, definitely sent the fanbase into a frenzy! Toei knows what's up!
I agree. It definitely keeps things fresh and interesting in my opinion, even if it's not exactly the best written twist we've had.
This is Super's core problem. Now that they're trying to course correct with other characters it's causing a big mess and it's one they only have themselves to blame.
It was in guide books. Super Saiyan 50x, Super Saiyan 2 100x, and Super Saiyan 3 400x.
While Super Saiyans 2 and 3 are questionable, we know Super Saiyan 1 had to be at least a 50x multiplier since Kaioken x20 only burnt 50% Frieza's hand.
No one except golden boy Gohan and 17 got a huge power jumps to the level of Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan, if Gohan really is up to par with Goku. Everyone else is within reason of scaling. 17 has the excuse of being off screen for over a decade. Gohan has no such excuse other than fan prays like Tinkle Bell's claps. Even Future Trunks had the decency of getting a brand new form, while Gohan just somehow made his Ultimate form stronger after doing light training for about a year.
Well, I was only talking about SSJ3 Goku to begin with. If Gohan is above SSJ3 Goku, then Goku going SSB for their fight would be the only logical next step since the anime hasn't shown the regular SSG form since its inception, yet. How much he holds back in that form is another question.
Also, in regards to how much of a multiplier Ultimate is, BoG was clearly going to be run with SSJ Gohan instead of Ultimate at first going by the trailers and pre-fan outrage. It's ambiguous whether Gohan was Ultimate against Beerus in Super (no bang). It's plausible he already lost Super Saiyan by this point if RoF is anything to go by. Ultimate Gohan was leagues better than SSJ3 Goku in Buu saga with similar base levels. This is assuming Ultimate even has a set multiplier and isn't just based on the character's potential. Additionally, a lot of time has passed since ep. 75.
So in the context of Super's overarching BS, episode 90 isn't really that BS. Gohan absolutely matching/surpassing Goku would be a bit much, but it's not the huge stretch some are making it out to be.
Kid Kamikaze10
Member
That wouldn't be a logical step since the multiplier for Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan is extremely high. Super Saiyan God, which is weaker, took Goku from two-shots against Beerus to being able to fight him somewhat. There is simply no comparison. Gohan will not only have to be stronger than Super Saiyan 3, he needs to jump up to Super Saiyan God and beyond.
The retellings hold more weight than the movies since Super is based on the retellings. In the retellings, Gohan was Ultimate and he went down faster than his movie counterpart. If he was trying to fight Beerus in his 'base form', Piccolo wouldn't have been shocked that Gohan went down in one hit.
And even in Battle of Gods, they were always going to make Gohan Ultimate. It is literally in the director's feed when a fan was whining about Super Saiyan Gohan.
So yes, the episode is BS no matter how you try to pretty it up if Gohan surpasses Goku.
RocknRola
Member
we know Freeza weakest form is 226% weaker than his final form IN THE POWER SCALE USED BY FREEZA'S ARMY. that's all. since we don't know what that scale measures, we don't know what that really means
we don't know how that measures up in Babidi scale, or more importantly, how Goku or Piccolo or Vegeta feel Freeza's strength changed or whether it is as big a change as SSJ1 to SSJ3
the point of bringing up Babidi scale is that power levels are not something well defined, and that different people have used different ways to measure it that are not completely compatible
The power scaling for Frieza's army is used for the measurements for Super Saiyan and the Kaioken. What do you think 10x is increasing from? Whatever Babidi uses doesn't matter.
And if you want to used Babidi's scale it can be done to an extent. We know that Buu Saga's Super Saiyan Goku had over 3 thousand kilis. You can go from there using the multipliers.
ArchedThunder
Banned
Speaking of, today is Goku Day right? Any big news? Or anything at all?
It's no longer Goku day in Japan, so no news sadly.
RocknRola
Member
Awww, shame. They could definitely make use of it as an annual event to share news or just have stuff for the fans
Should have just trained off poachers instead.
ArchedThunder
Banned
Remember when the humans trained under Kami for a bit and they went from sub-beginning of Z Goku to stronger than Raditz, who was insanely powerful at that time, with training that was almost entirely offscreen? And Piccolo and Gohan trained in the wilderness at that time and also saw ridiculous gains?
ArchedThunder remembers.
ArchedThunder remembers.
Undead Fantasy
Member
Happy Piccolo day everyone.
ArchedThunder
Banned
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