Dragon Ball Super |OT6| Put your back into it.
- Thread starter ArchedThunder
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Mister Wolf
Member
"2. The Grand Priest says Zen'o has often said there were too many universes and that the tournament presented the perfect opportunity to do something about that. Not that Zen'o often said there were 9 too many. Not that Zen'o often talked about erasing them. And in all this time he hadn't. Until Goku's boredom gave them the perfect opportunity. To top it off, Whis posits specifically that low level universes are being backspaced."
If 15 silver points dont fall out of this thing when it gets beaten, the whole arc is a waste.
Undead Fantasy
Member
I'm OK with this.
ArchedThunder
Banned
Give up on Buu.
I also doubt Nakao's conversation that he recorded between Freeza and Frost is 3 weeks away. 2 weeks is already pushing it for Super production schedule.
Reizo Ryuu
Member
I know you skipped a bunch of posts, but this has been adressed already.
It's conjecture.
The only facts are:
Universes will be erased.
Tournament ensures the survival of one universe.
You never responded to that post. It is not conjecture. I rewatched the scene and repeated what was actually said.
The facts are:
Zen'o thinks there are too many universes
The tournament presented the perfect opportunity to fix that
Specifically it is low level universes being erased.
Icyflamez96
Member
If episode 94 could just be Freiza low-key slaying everybody than id be a ok
Someone has to believe in Buu.
In the 2% chance Buu did make it into the tournament, I don't think he will, I like making out of left field predictions, Satan being threatened is the only way I could see it.
I love when we're one episode away from the leaks, because there's a lot of room to make speculations that aren't even close.
Mister Wolf
Member
I will put it like this. If no universes get destroyed at the end of this then the statement of too many universes was dishonest bullshit. If you don't want to say it was a lie and they just changed their mind then that furthers my point of Zeno making dangerous childlike decisions on a whim and Goku bringing up the tournament against Whis and Beerus warning played a part in endangering the multiverse. You already saw the changing its mind on a whim for deciding to spare the weakest universe if their leader could beat Goku in a match. Lets just see what happens at the end of all this.
Reizo Ryuu
Member
Which is entirely possible. I personally subscribe to universal maintenance. Shoving all the contents of all the shitty universes into a single one and deleting the universes.
This is literally the opposite of conjecture. It is factual that those things were not said. It is conjecture that they were implied.
Reizo Ryuu
Member
Uhm no, you present it as fact that zen'o doesn't talk about universe erasure. The only thing he forgot was the tournament.
Omega Kirby
Member
Frieza is going to betray his team in the end isnt he?
Read my god damned post. I state what the Grand Priest says. And then I state what the Grand Priest does not say.
dickroach
Member
lol. I was getting a Sonic The Hedgehog enemy/boss vibe from it, but yeah, that thing's definitely the robot at the festival from Chrono Trigger
I hope he kills Krillin first.
Reizo Ryuu
Member
Exactly, why is his omission of talking about the frequency in which zen'o brings up universe erasure a valid argument? It doesn't mean anything.
The only fact presented to us is that universe erasure was gonna happen, unless you entertain the narrative that the grand priest, and all the angels are lying, including vados who mentions goku actually saved a universe this way.
Probably.
1. Because the person that post responds to said that the Grand Priest said Zeno often talks about universe destruction. The Grand Priest never says this. So yes, it does mean something. Because the Grand Priest states that it is Goku's tournament that presents the perfect opportunity to do something about there being too many universes.
2. Vados does not know shit. She knows exactly as much as Whis who knows exactly as much as Beerus. She was making an observation based on the same information as you. She is no less an audience mouthpiece in that scene than the GoDs.
3. Because The Grand Priest never said there were 9 too many universes. What he says, or rather what Whis says, is that low level universes would have been deleted anyways. The Grand Priest confirms his statement. Not "the lowest level", not "the nine lowest levels." Which all of which is integral to my point that
4. Goku may have saved anywhere from 1 to negative seven universes, it does not matter. He turned a problem for the future that may not have even arisen into a problem for right now because he was bored.
Mister Wolf
Member
Good points.
If he didn't, then I would have begun to question if that was actually frieza or someone wearing a frieza suit.
Reizo Ryuu
Member
All of your points are conjecture.
1. no it doesn't mean anything, because the universe erasure was gonna happen regardless of what's happening "behind the scenes". Unless again you believe the grand priest is lying (more conjecture).
2. vados doesn't know shit? well...conjecture.
All of the angels were aware of the plan, champa and beerus are even shocked that whis and vados didn't tell them they wouldn't be erased, so no, beerus doesn't know remotely all the things whis or vados do.
3. who cares how many universes he does or doesn't mention, it's not important, claiming all these "might'ves" and "what ifs" are valid arguments is silly, because they aren't, it's conjecture.
Heck if you want to go with what ifs as your argument:
What if the grand priest is responsible for influencing zen'o about the cutoff point? The whole "just the low level ones" could've been his idea to salvage when zen'o decided there were too many, because in this case we don't know what "too many" even means, "could've been 11 universes ¯\_(ツ
_/¯4. "may not even arisen" = conjecture.
We have been presented with the fact that it was going to happen, unless, again, you go with the narrative that the grand priest is lying.
You don't know what the word conjecture means and at this point it's obvious. My argument is paring back every assumption you are making about what would have definitely happened and what characters have said and what people do or do not know in advance.
I'm going to more thoroughly dress down this infuriatingly ridiculous response when I get home instead of while I'm on this tablet, but just to point out as an example of how many assumptions you are making:
At no point are we told any of the Angels knew about any of this in advance. Nowhere.
Reizo Ryuu
Member
Lol ok, I guess you aren't forming arguments based on incomplete information:
"nobody talks about how often zen'o talks about universe erasure = he must not talk about it at all!"
"zen'o has never mentioned the exact amount of universes = goku hasn't saved anything!"
And the angels were keenly aware they weren't being erased, how could they know this if they didn't know about the plan to erase universes?
RareFantasy64
Member
If it weren't for we just had the RoF arc I could see him becoming the endgame threat of this arc by some sort of power-up he finds through getting out of hell to participate in the tournament. We never had to deal with him with his end goal of becoming immortal in the Frieza arc. What if the Z Fighters actually had to face him after a power-up like that?
Icyflamez96
Member
There was a good point made that a Universe like 11 had good opportunity to improve their level over time. We don't know how long Zeno has been planning to destroy the universes. He could have been talking about that for 1000s of years and could have waited 1000s of more years before actually taking action. In those years, U11 could have worked their way out of risk by increasing their level. Though, there's no opportunity for that now considering Goku made it happen much sooner than it could have.
Wouldn't put it past him.
Reizo Ryuu
Member
Perhaps, but that's another "what if".
Like you said we don't know what the timescale is for them improving enough to get beyond the cut off point, could be 10 years, could be 75000, it's a point worth discussing by itself.
But using it as an actual "argument" against goku saving a universe is just conjecture. That conclusion is literally based on information that is far too nebulous.
Icyflamez96
Member
It's just as much as a what if as assuming it was it was going to happen soon, much before U11 or any other U would have a chance to improve themselves significantly. It's the same as arguing that Goku didn't actually put any of the universes in any more danger than they would have been in without his influence.
Reizo Ryuu
Member
I'm not assuming it would happen soon though, I don't think anyone is.
The only thing I'm "assuming" is what has been presented as facts, which is the universe erasure was going to happen regardless, and goku saving one as confirmed by vados.
Arguments presented so far that go against these facts are based on what ifs and assumptions, and thus are conjecture.
Icyflamez96
Member
But we do know it had to have gone one way or the other in regards to how long it would have taken Zeno to take action. Goku made sure that they didn't have a chance to improve more before Zeno blew things up. Without him there is still a chance that he would have just held it off for an extended period of time.
The arguments for one way or another don't go against facts. They are reasonable assumptions based on the info that we have from the show. It's not invalid at this point to see it on one end or the other.
Freeza Under The Shower
Member
No killing allowed though, so even he would know it to be unwise to fuck with Zeno directly. Those are things best kept for right after its done. Already blew up Namek, blew up Earth, so three times the charm: going for Salat.
But I wanted to mention that there were more effective jokes this episode than in the previous one. Wonder if that's on the script or Beerus being present.
Reizo Ryuu
Member
Yes having an extended timescale is a very valid argument.
However, having an extended timescale is not a valid argument against goku actually saving a universe, because that argument assumes 1 or more universes would´ve crossed the cut off point before zen´o decides to start the erasure.
Reizo Ryuu
Member
Yes
ArchedThunder
Banned
Icyflamez96
Member
Do you mean against or for? This post confuses me if you meant against.
I would've preferred Cell to join the team over Frieza if they would going to sideline Buu. Cell was all about the tournament spectacle and he can grow Cell Jrs too.
As long as Piccolo and Gohan shine I'll be ok though, especially Piccolo. Give him a new form or something.
As long as Piccolo and Gohan shine I'll be ok though, especially Piccolo. Give him a new form or something.
ArchedThunder
Banned
Cell isn't god tier like Freeza though.
Reizo Ryuu
Member
Hmm?
Yes the argument that the tournament comes in place of an extended timescale is a valid one.
The extended timescale itself is not a valid argument against the fact, confirmed by vados, that goku saved a universe with this tournament, because then you are making the assumption that several universes would've crossed the cut off point in time before destruction.
He has everyone's genes. He has the potential to be.
ArchedThunder
Banned
In 2 hours?
Reizo Ryuu
Member
something something poachers focusing energy into their backs.
Icyflamez96
Member
Im still kinda confused for whatever reason I'll respond to what I think you're saying.
I wasn't arguing against the idea that Goku might have actually saved a universe by his actions, but it is also possible that other universes could have crossed the cutoff point by the time Zeno finally got around to doing something if Goku hadn't been a factor. These assumptions are reasonable assumptions based off of stuff we know from the show so far. I don't think it's necessarily invalid to see it one way or the other. There definitely isn't one "right" way to look at it.
Yeah. Ideally it'll start as soon as Freeza is recruited
They're really milking this recruitment part out. We've been in this arc what, four or five months? Also imagine if the actual tournament was only like four-six episodes. It would be so lopsided
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