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[Stinkles]

Can he catch a bullet with his bare hands? Beat the shit out of Rorschach? I don't think so.

Have you seen the man chest-bump?

 

[Spirit of Jazz]

You're worse than the people who are killing billions if you choose not to kill millions?

Given the totally messed up political climate the blame of the cause leading to billions dead can't be put on any one persons shoulders. However given you had the chance to prevent it you let billions die, their deaths are on your shoulders. Everybody dies but is not your fault is the right thing to do, rather than killing a few million to save everybody? It's an inhuman act, but it's in no way evil, evil would be to kill one man with a selfish reason or no reason at all. This is simply the same as any world leader sending his countries people to war. It's not like you're sending them to war and condoning your soldiers to rape the enemies women.

 

[Snidely Whiplash]

Given the totally messed up political climate the blame of the cause leading to billions dead can't be put on any one persons shoulders. However given you had the chance to prevent it you let billions die, their deaths are on your shoulders. Everybody dies but is not your fault is the right thing to do, rather than killing a few million to save everybody? It's an inhuman act, but it's in no way evil, evil would be to kill one man with a selfish reason or no reason at all. This is simply the same as any world leader sending his countries people to war. It's not like you're sending them to war and condoning your soldiers to rape the enemies women.

Without knowing if Veidts actions had any eventual effect on the world how can you say he's not evil?

 

[Spirit of Jazz]

Without knowing if Veidts actions had any eventual effect on the world how can you say he's not evil?

Because they had an effect, Russia pulled out of Afghanistan, you're seriously discrediting his title of the worlds smartest man. The massive international conflict which was about to irrupt was at the very least put off. He knew that these short term effects would be definite and that was enough to justify his actions, he *hoped* the peace would last hence his questions to the doc at the end of the book.

 

[Snidely Whiplash]

Because they had an effect, Russia pulled out of Afghanistan, you're seriously discrediting his title of the worlds smartest man. The massive international conflict which was about to irrupt was at the very least put off. He knew that these short term effects would be definite and that was enough to justify his actions, he *hoped* the peace would last hence his questions to the doc at the end of the book.

So giving the world some extra time is worth millions of lives? What a dick.

 

[Exclamation-One]

Thanks for spoiling Watchmen, asshole.

 

[MisterHero]

Well if humanity is blown away who is to say who is wrong or right? :lol

 

[PistolGrip]

He is just a puppet for the hand of the Oligarchy

 

[Snidely Whiplash]

Well if humanity is blown away who is to say who is wrong or right? :lol

I'm still gonna stick with the whole mass murder is wrong thing. :lol

 

[Spirit of Jazz]

So giving the world some extra time is worth millions of lives? What a dick.

You were basing your earlier opinion on uncertainty, the only uncertainty is the amount of time the world would have which could be one year or it could be a hundred thousand. Obviously not worth the risk of... oh shit, there are no risks because they're dead either way.

 

[Snidely Whiplash]

You were basing your earlier opinion on uncertainty, the only uncertainty is the amount of time the world would have which could be one year or it could be a hundred thousand. Obviously not worth the risk of... oh shit, there are no risks because they're dead either way.

Okay, so Veidt is still an evil mass-murdering bastard. Glad we agree.

 

[Armitage]

I didn't understand this topic at all, I thought it was about the poem. I still don't know what you guys are talking about.

 

[MisterHero]

I didn't understand this topic at all, I thought it was about the poem. I still don't know what you guys are talking about.

It's one of the most influential comics ever written (or so I've heard).

It's a great story but IMO it's not a great superhero story.

 

[Spirit of Jazz]

Okay, so Veidt is still an evil mass-murdering bastard. Glad we agree.

When does evil come into saving the world in it's most literal sense? It takes more of a man to knowingly commit an evil act to save the world than a good one. Good men can commit acts of evil, evil men can commit acts of good.

 

[Snidely Whiplash]

When does evil come into saving the world in it's most literal sense? It takes more of a man to knowingly commit an evil act to save the world than a good one. Good men can commit acts of evil, evil men can commit acts of good.

How did he save the world? He possibly delayed the ending of the world by who knows how long. That's worth slaughtering millions of people for?

 

[Alien Bob]

How did he save the world? He possibly delayed the ending of the world by who knows how long. That's worth slaughtering millions of people for?

Yes it is.

 

[Gaborn]

Yes it is.

Even if all of your loved ones are among the millions?

 

[Snidely Whiplash]

Yes it is.

You guys are fucking nuts.

 

[Spirit of Jazz]

How did he save the world? He possibly delayed the ending of the world by who knows how long. That's worth slaughtering millions of people for?

You're putting off the cold war conflict as a "possibility" still, the book made sure to let the reader know the shit was about to hit the fan. Hence he saved the freaking world, a future conflict may start up, the same one could begin again, but he stopped the world ending from that chain of events.

This is getting silly now, if you can't figure out that it's worth killing a few million to stop billions from dyeing I don't know what to say.

You guys are fucking nuts.

Yeah, we're the morons any sane man would honour a belief in a flawed morality system over stopping the world from ending... Just remember if everyone dies your sense of morality means shit.

 

[Snidely Whiplash]

You're putting off the cold war conflict as a "possibility" still, the book made sure to let the reader know the shit was about to hit the fan. Hence he saved the freaking world, a future conflict may start up, the same one could begin again, but he stopped the world ending from that chain of events.

This is getting silly now, if you can't figure out that it's worth killing a few million to stop billions from dyeing I don't know what to say.

In your humble opinion it is.

 

[Alien Bob]

Even if all of your loved ones are among the millions?

Yeah, sure, why not. I'd be selfish if I didn't want to save the world because of loved ones

 

[Gaborn]

Yeah, sure, why not. I'd be selfish if I didn't want to save the world because of loved ones

You're sacrificing millions of lives to POSSIBLY extend others.

 

[Alien Bob]

You're sacrificing millions of lives to POSSIBLY extend others.

Yes, I know, what's your point?

 

[Snidely Whiplash]

You're putting off the cold war conflict as a "possibility" still, the book made sure to let the reader know the shit was about to hit the fan. Hence he saved the freaking world, a future conflict may start up, the same one could begin again, but he stopped the world ending from that chain of events.

This is getting silly now, if you can't figure out that it's worth killing a few million to stop billions from dyeing I don't know what to say.



Yeah, we're the morons any sane man would honour a belief in a flawed morality system over stopping the world from ending... Just remember if everyone dies your sense of morality means shit.

He stopped the world from ending? I don't remember that part in the comic? Plus everyone will die eventually so why wouldn't I keep my morals steady no matter what?

 

[Spirit of Jazz]

You're sacrificing millions of lives to POSSIBLY extend others.

Assuming Ozy's estimations were wrong, which doesn't tend to be the case, especially given what was said between the president and generals in the war room.

He stopped the world from ending? I don't remember that part in the comic? Plus everyone will die eventually so why wouldn't I keep my morals steady no matter what?

Nuclear war tends not to end all that well, the biggest fear that the world would end. If everybody going to die eventually why don't we just kill them all now so there's no need to wait? Oh, hold on, that is what you're saying.

 

[Snidely Whiplash]

Assuming Ozy's estimations were wrong, which doesn't tend to be the case, especially given what was said between the president and generals in the war room.



Nuclear war tends not to end all that well, the biggest fear that the world would end. If everybody going to die eventually why don't we just kill them all now so there's no need to wait? Oh, hold on, that is what you're saying.

:lol What the fuck are you talking about?

 

[Spirit of Jazz]

:lol What the fuck are you talking about?

How did he save the world? He possibly delayed the ending of the world by who knows how long.

I believe here you say everybody should die rather than carry on for an unknown period of time?

 

[Evlar]

Spoiler

If you were in that room, and you knew the secret, would you behave like Rorschach or like Manhattan? Which is the moral option?

 

[Snidely Whiplash]

I believe here you say everybody should die rather than carry on for an unknown period of time?

Where exactly? Are you fucking insane?

 

[Snidely Whiplash]

Spoiler

If you were in that room, and you knew the secret, would you behave like Rorschach or like Manhattan? Which is the moral option?

Rorschach? How is that even a question? Veidt is a fucking murderer who deserved to be hung in the public square.

 

[Evlar]

Rorschach? How is that even a question? Veidt is a fucking murderer who deserved to be hung in the public square.

Spoiler

Then YOU would be responsible for the ensuing war. Would you not? After all, you could have preserved the peace without killing or harming a single person.

 

[SpeedingUptoStop]

I seriously doubt killing all those people was the only way to "buy the world some time" an therefore, the guy is bat shit insane. World's smartest man be damned, human error is still involved in the situation.

 

[Snidely Whiplash]

Spoiler

Then YOU would be responsible for the ensuing war. Would you not? After all, you could have preserved the peace without killing or harming a single person.

No, I would be responsible for bringing a mass-murdering lunatic to justice. Whoever launched the first nuke would be responsible for the war.

 

[Alien Bob]

Rorschach? How is that even a question? Veidt is a fucking murderer who deserved to be hung in the public square.

Eh, murder can be ok if you do it for the right reasons

 

[Snidely Whiplash]

Eh, murder can be ok if you do it for the right reasons

Like killing another murderer or are you still defending Veidt's mass killing?

 

[Alien Bob]

Like killing another murderer or are you still defending Veidt's mass killing?

Yeah, the mass killing, it's fine

 

[Evlar]

No, I would be responsible for bringing a mass-murdering lunatic to justice. Whoever launched the first nuke would be responsible for the war.

You would know the implications of your actions. You response is as simplistic as Gavrilo Princip claiming he just killed one guy when he knew FULL WELL that his actions would provoke war.

 

[Snidely Whiplash]

Yeah, the mass killing, it's fine

Alrighty then.

 

[Alien Bob]

Alrighty then.

good to know we're on the same page

 

[Snidely Whiplash]

You would know the implications of your actions. You response is as simplistic as Gavrilo Princip claiming he just killed one guy when he knew FULL WELL that his actions would provoke war.

But the war might still have never happened if Veidt didn't kill all those people, and it might still have happened even though he did. There are other solutions to preventing war besides using fear tactics.

 

[Snidely Whiplash]

good to know we're on the same page

:lol Whatever you say man.

 

[Spirit of Jazz]

Where exactly? Are you fucking insane?

So giving the world some extra time is worth millions of lives? What a dick.

How did he save the world? He possibly delayed the ending of the world by who knows how long. That's worth slaughtering millions of people for?

Maybe you only understand quotes when they're bolded? My claim was that you think people might as well die sooner than later since they're going to die later anyways, the bolded parts of the quotes are what prove that

No, I would be responsible for bringing a mass-murdering lunatic to justice. Whoever launched the first nuke would be responsible for the war.

There would be no "justice" as you'd have no civilised society to go back to for one. Then you're oversimplifing world relations to a retarded level. On top of that you're missing the point that Veidt's actions would stop any missiles from dropping. Surely when your morality justifies the world ending on a blame game you can see how stupid it is?

But the war might still have never happened if Veidt didn't kill all those people, and it might still have happened even though he did. There are other solutions to preventing war besides using fear tactics.

The novel says the war's going to happen, re-read the war room scene for Christ's sake, then note how the Russians pull out of Afghanistan. It's not a matter of possibility, Ozy prevent the inevitable war through his actions. He's the perfect man, he doesn't fuck up, he doesn't make miscalculations...

 

[Snidely Whiplash]

Maybe you only understand quotes when they're bolded? My claim was that you think people might as well die sooner than later since they're going to die later anyways, the bolded parts of the quotes are what prove that



There would be no "justice" as you'd have no civilised society to go back to for one. Then you're oversimplifing world relations to a retarded level. On top of that you're missing the point that Veidt's actions would stop any missiles from dropping. Surely when your morality justifies the world ending on a blame game you can see how stupid it is?

No I think people should die when they fucking die, no one should murder them now and no one should murder them later. @ the bolded I think you forgot the word possibly. Veidt murdered millions of people on the possibility that it would do something, there is no certainty there.

 

[Spirit of Jazz]

No I think people should die when they fucking die, no one should murder them now and no one should murder them later. @ the bolded I think you forgot the word possibly. Veidt murdered millions of people on the possibility that it would do something, there is no certainty there.

Like I've stated over and over, I don't believe there's any possibility in it, there's certainty due to the war room scene, the hostility of the Russian, the perfect man's prediction and the person who sees time deserting a race because he sees the state of humanity. Even then it's a matter of people dying to possibly stop others from dying when they're going to die anyway, can't you see how silly that is? You're being an idealist "no one should murder them now and no one should murder them later" there's no option where nobody gets murdered, a few million are murdered or billions are, make the decision...

 

[SpeedingUptoStop]

He's the perfect man, he doesn't fuck up, he doesn't make miscalculations...

well, he certainly fucked up if Rorshach managed to beat him in the end, from beyond the grave.

 

[Snidely Whiplash]

Like I've stated over and over, I don't believe there's any possibility in it, there's certainty due to the war room scene, the hostility of the Russian, the perfect man's prediction and the person who sees time deserting a race because he sees the state of humanity. Even then it's a matter of people dying to possibly stop others from dying when they're going to die anyway, can't you see how silly that is? You're being an idealist "no one should murder them now and no one should murder them later" there's no option where nobody gets murdered, a few million are murdered or billions are, make the decision...

So Veidt's decision stopped war forever and everyone lived happily ever after? Or did he delay this particular war for who knows how long? No matter what Veidt is still a mass murderer who deserves to die for his actions, which I'm pretty sure I've been saying all along. Veidt=Evil

 

[RegularMK]

I got the impression that there was no definitive right or wrong answer to the moral dilemma presented at the end of The Watchmen. In fact, seeing how very polarized everyone in this thread is, I'd say I'm right.

 

[Stinkles]

I got the impression that there was no definitive right or wrong answer to the moral dilemma presented at the end of The Watchmen. In fact, seeing how very polarized everyone in this thread is, I'd say I'm right.

Yeah, I kinda thought that was the whole point. Even "god" in the shape of Dr. Manhattan doesn't really know how to judge Ozy's actions.

 

[Spirit of Jazz]

well, he certainly fucked up if Rorshach managed to beat him in the end, from beyond the grave.

Under estimating Rorschach was obvious a weakness, but did Manhattan not do the exact same thing? Their immaculate is only contended by this, it's a plot hole for dramas sake... or they know/see that the allegedly diary published by a fanatic right-winged news paper will come to nothing.

So Veidt's decision stopped war forever and everyone lived happily ever after? Or did he delay this particular war for who knows how long? No matter what Veidt is still a mass murderer who deserves to die for his actions, which I'm pretty sure I've been saying all along. Veidt=Evil

You have been saying that all along, it's just as silly now. "If he didn't do what he did the world would of ended but we'd rather all be dead, get him!!"

 

[Snidely Whiplash]

Under estimating Rorschach was obvious a weakness, but did Manhattan not do the exact same thing? Their immaculate is only contended by this, it's a plot hole for dramas sake... or they know/see that the allegedly diary published by a fanatic right-winged news paper will come to nothing.



You have been saying that all along, it's just as silly now. "If he didn't do what he did the world might have ended but we'd rather all possibly die than be murdered, get him!!"

There you go.