Dungeons are the most important part of an RPG

G

Gattsu25

Banned
because being lost in a digital maze is the most realistic aspect of playing the role of a character.

If I were really the one true soul that could save the land by defeating the Lord of Gh'alore, I wouldn't be able to walk into his keep and silently sneak up the stairs-shank him in his sleep- and slip out unnoticed...
NO!

I would first have to stand outside his door and scream for him to face me like a man, then I would listen to his half-assed speech that's supposed to justify his crimes (but have no real effort put into it) or demonize him (because there are only 2 enemies in the world: the ones who are badass and the ones who are badass but don't know it)

He will then turn aside and raise a hand as 2 or three of his servants jump out of his bedchamber and fight me. Then, after defeating them I will walk inside of his front door find myself in a MAZE INSIDE HIS HOUSE. Ah yeah, the might RPG dungeon...thank Jal'rah that these exist as the game will suck if they didn't. I mean, what can be more fun that roaming around a large unneccassary maze filled with traps, encounters, and numerous dead ends? Only after making the fifth left turn down the hallway and finding the correct path into the next branching area of this digitized heaven will I truly feel in touch with my character because GODDAMMIT AN RPG IS JUST NOT AN RPG WITHOUT THIS ILLOGICAL AND USELESS LEFTOVER FROM THE 80s!!
 
Gattsu25 said:
If I were really the one true soul that could save the land by defeating the Lord of Gh'alore, I wouldn't be able to walk into his keep and silently sneak up the stairs-shank him in his sleep- and slip out unnoticed...
Click to expand...

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eh? this has nothing to do with D&D or any specific RPG in general. I was actually thinking of the type of BS scenario often thrown at you in a JRPG and mixed that in with the retarded-as-all-hell names often seen in western RPGs so take the thread as you will.

The 'point' of the thread is that dungeons fucking suck...though I like to have my threads never directly state their point (and typically blanket the real point, if there is one, in a bunch of unrelated BS) =\
 
is it necessarily dungeons, or more like "levels"? Because a dungeon to me is a specific type of level, i.e. a cavern, or a dungeon, whatever. I'd like to be able to explore a forest, a castle, a boat, etc.

To me, exploration is one of the key aspects, of which dungeons are merely a sub-part of. And the story is important only in the sense that it involves the player in the gameplay, in other words, the story should be told through the gameplay. I hate RPGs who've taken the trend of spoonfeeding the story through cinematic cut-scenes instead of through gameplay...
 
Since the big alternatives to the whole maze wandering, speech listening and bedchamber battling, I'll step up to the plate and say. I'm all for wandering around in the dungeons of whatever forsaken land that needs saving.

Just because you can inject action and fighter elements into an RPG doesn't mean that you have to. Part of a good RPG is the battle system, some people like these to varying degrees. I myself prefer the good old turn based dungeon like world trekking RPGs. If that's not your bag you might pick up a somewhat rare (perhaps? ArcadeStickMonk would know better) PSX title Valkyrie Profile, that borrows a bit more of a fighter combo type battle system. Then there's the already mentioned Morrowind and the like. I'd also say that you might be able to squeeze Deus Ex and System Shock into the RPG type genre, but that's a whole other topic I'd suspect.

Thankfully there are plenty of RPGs out there, many of them with a little less dungeon in them for those who can't take them.
 
A lot of games are incorrectly considered RPGs by the gaming press, when in fact they are not RPGs.

i.e.,
action/adventures (Zelda, Goemon)
action/RPGs (Alundra)
sidescroller action with RPG elements (Valkyrie Profile)
simulation/RPGs or strategy/RPGs (they are their own genre!!!)
simulation games (Harvest Moon)
adventures (Kings Quest)

The problem is that people seem to think that as long as a game has story elements (i.e. talking to NPCs) or basic simulation elements (buying/selling, equipping), it must be an RPG! If that was true then River City Ransom would be an RPG. But it's not.

Oh well.
 
Good point all around, Pellham (not you, Guivre...dungeons really do suck)

In real life I love mazes and maze-like areas. Unfortunately, that love does not carry over into my entertainment. I despise RPGs that repeatedly throw you into digitized mazes with numerous dead-ends and wide ranging loops. It's simply not fun and IMO is a superficial means of expanding the game's lenghth that should have died off years ago. Now...these areas could be inside of the 1000 year of underground jails of a long secluded nation or could be in a sunny forest but to me it all feels the same. I guess it's just the fact that there are multiple maze-like regions in the same game world that throws me out of the experience.

There are other aspects of the RPG genre that I'm not too fond of, but tonight I realized that only a few can consistantly make me lose interest in a game entirely and the digital maze aspect is the main culprit.

I'm not calling for the inclusion of FPS or fighting game elements in these games as this thread isn't exactly intended to be a thread that is calling for the obolition of all the old RPG mechanics...though if that is where the thread turns I wont try hard to re-adjust it

The simple fact is that the maze like areas and dark brown/green places that inhabit so many of these games BORE ME TO TEARS
 
To argue, without what you've defined as 'dungeons', many games would cease to provide a challenge. Your argument, to me, is equivalent to 'I want to be a Marine, I just hate all that physical training. They should make it easier!'

You seem to have a pretty good head on your shoulders (this thread's earlier rant aside), but in order to garner anything more than agreements or opposing opinions, perhaps you should provide us with some insights into what you'd like for your RPGs to have instead of dungeons. I...don't seem to see any constructive ideas yet.

Or better yet, don't play games with dungeons and save us a thread.
 
I think the most important aspect of any traditional RPG is the combat and character development systems (this includes the combat engine, leveling up system [or equivalent], and equipment system.)
 
In regards to these games loosing their challenge, that's what the gameplay mechanics, puzzles, and balance should provide...not the layout of the areas. I fail to see how a game based on pen and paper mechanics would be any less of an RPG if it kept maze-like qualities only in areas where it makes sense, such as labyrinths and the actual definition of dungeons.

Most of my threads begin with either nonsensical rants like that or simple non-informative introductions...it's simply how I start threads. You having a problem with that greatly affects me, though I regret to inform you that I do not plan on changing just for you. As an aside, you might soon discover that all it takes is having a simple disagreement with a moderator's little bitch to find yourself with a Junior Member custom tag.

What can I offer to alleviate what i consider an RPG dungeon: smarter map design. That's all. Save the maze BS for an actual dungeon and thoroughly plan and design all the other areas so that you don't have situations where the only thing separating a dark underground prison and a hillside village is a tile swap and different encounters/events.
 
i don't like the whole shooting side of games, funny enough, i stay away from fps!
Alot of rpg's would have no challenge if there was no dungions/puzzles.
i don't get this you choose to start your topics with a post that won't make sense?.... ok.
 
Mejilan said:
Just out of curiosity, Gattsu, have you ever played Roguelike RPGs?
Click to expand...


Aye. I've played NetHack extensvely (still suck at it). I have tried Zangband once but stopped playing that in favor of the more NH-like ADOM. Will try Zangband again when I get the time to try and learn how you play the damn thing :b

Those games and games like Vagrant Story (which can be likened to a roguelike) can get away with their twisting corridors as they are dungeon hacks. It might be unfair but I expect that of them, so I am more forgiving.

APC: it's not supposed to make sense, I guess =\


Edit: thanks junkster :D
 
Gattsu25 makes an excellent point. Why are mazes constantly thrown into games? Why should we be forced to wander areas and hit dead-ends? Who is going to step up to the plate and offer a new experience in map layout for rpgs?

While some or all of you may actually enjoy these RPG mainstays, he poses completely valid questions. And, I might add, not at all confusing as I understood what was being asked/stated from post#1.

Btw, I agree that mazes should be used only when appropriate.
 
Gattsu25 said:
Aye. I've played NetHack extensvely (still suck at it). I have tried Zangband once but stopped playing that in favor of the more NH-like ADOM. Will try Zangband again when I get the time to try and learn how you play the damn thing :b

Those games and games like Vagrant Story (which can be likened to a roguelike) can get away with their twisting corridors as they are dungeon hacks. It might be unfair but I expect that of them, so I am more forgiving.

APC: it's not supposed to make sense, I guess =\
Click to expand...

Okay, you've won me over. What kind of games exemplify the type of game you enjoy playing?
 
kumanoki said:
Okay, you've won me over. What kind of games exemplify the type of game you enjoy playing?
Click to expand...

Eh? Consider this thread a wishlist for the genre, kumanoki as it's an area I find the genre to have many problems in

Edit: Cool. I'll check up on this thread tomorrow...it's already past 2AM here :(
 
So, mazes are fine in roguelikes, but not when they're arbitrarily (and/or overly) incorporated in traditional rpgs, you say? I'll agree with that. :D
 
Let's end it here and now.

If you dislike the dreadful dungeons that are often thrown for level building phases or to get that oh so important item that RPGs throw at you, go read a fantasy/sci-fi novel or a story analysis/script of said game.

I hate dungeons as much as anyone else in any RPG but the simple fact is that they are there for a reason - even if a petty one at that.
 
speed, um...what is this important reason you speak of? Are you even aware of what my argument is? (I'm to blame for not making it clear)
 
I love how the 'dungeons' are handled in games like Baldur's Gate or Planescape Torment. They actually feel like part of the world and not that you're in some random maze. The thing about most Japanese rpgs that really annoy me is that most interaction/conversation ceases when you enter into these little dungeons. I like how in Baldur's Gate II, you would go in a dungeon and still would be able to talk with your soon to be enemies, etc. Mostly, I love the fact that they don't make the dungeons feel like lifeless mazes unless that particular dungeon actually is a lifeless maze.

Challenge has absolutely nothing to do with my hatred of the experience of these mazelike settings. What really makes it worse are random encounters. I find nothing challenging about walking around, trying to explore the landscape, and then BAM, the scene fades and here you are pressing x over and over again to vanquish the same inconsequential enemy you've fought a thousand times before. It's not challenging. It's tedious.

I really do enjoy challenges in RPGs, but not when the challenge consists of making bosses overpowered so that you're forced to walk around the same drab screen for hours to kill evil rabbits and turtles just to get your level up. I just personally am bored to death by the 'traditional,' menu-based rpg experience.

I prefer a more immersive experience, and one where the transition between dungeon and town is not so distinctive. I love games where the distinction between 'dungeon' and 'town' is blurred. I love it when you can cause havoc in the town or just sneak around and avoid most of the fights in a dungeon. For most Japanese rpgs, the town just seems like a rest stop for the next dungeon. Take a piss here, and lets keep on trucking!
 
"sidescroller action with RPG elements (Valkyrie Profile)"

Pellham: Whoa there buddy, I dunno about that. It actually HAD a turn based battle system and what not.
 
You guys need to play Ico and Zelda

Granted these are not RPGs in the strictest sense, but I've long since avoided and given up on playing D&D clones of random maze dungeons or just boring dungeons found in so many RPGs.
 
Gattsu25 said:
because being lost in a digital maze is the most realistic aspect of playing the role of a character.

If I were really the one true soul that could save the land by defeating the Lord of Gh'alore, I wouldn't be able to walk into his keep and silently sneak up the stairs-shank him in his sleep- and slip out unnoticed...
NO!

I would first have to stand outside his door and scream for him to face me like a man, then I would listen to his half-assed speech that's supposed to justify his crimes (but have no real effort put into it) or demonize him (because there are only 2 enemies in the world: the ones who are badass and the ones who are badass but don't know it)

He will then turn aside and raise a hand as 2 or three of his servants jump out of his bedchamber and fight me. Then, after defeating them I will walk inside of his front door find myself in a MAZE INSIDE HIS HOUSE. Ah yeah, the might RPG dungeon...thank Jal'rah that these exist as the game will suck if they didn't. I mean, what can be more fun that roaming around a large unneccassary maze filled with traps, encounters, and numerous dead ends? Only after making the fifth left turn down the hallway and finding the correct path into the next branching area of this digitized heaven will I truly feel in touch with my character because GODDAMMIT AN RPG IS JUST NOT AN RPG WITHOUT THIS ILLOGICAL AND USELESS LEFTOVER FROM THE 80s!!
Click to expand...

Its the storyline that keeps people going. IF you think gameplay will make somebody finish a 40 hour long rpg, then you are kidding yourself. Many rpgs have great stories but bad gameplay or dungeons or even battle controls. They still finish it anyway. Its not the core, even if its the chunk of the game.
 
Yep, I personally play rpgs for the story, and a lot of the time for the immersive environments the graphics and music create. LIke in games such as Chrono Cross, I'd just stand around admiring the graphics and music. I love the immersive world a good rpg can create. It's a nice contrast to the adrenaline pump of an intense sidescroller.
 
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