I agree!
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Dusk Form Lycanroc available to early adopters of Pokemon UltraSun and UltraMoon
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I agree!
papertoonz
Member
in what world are voltorb and electrode threatening design wise? they are ball with eyes
sure they have explosion but that just makes them one trick ponies
also if you knew more about pokemon you would know Amoonguss is a good pokemon that can be a real pain to deal with compared to it's competition
You do know that Amoonguss was one of the core competitive Pokémon in 2015, part of what was called CHALK, the commonly used 5 Pokémon featuring:
Cresselia
Heatran
Amoonguss
Landorus Therian Forme
Mega Kangaskhan
You what?
g.r.e.
Member
In this world, I'm afraid.
I've never talked about PVP, and I don't even care about that. It could be a flying shit pokemon design wise, but if it had good stats and a great moveset it would be a top pick regardless.
This urge to defend Gen 1 Pokemon reminds me of a discussion I had this week.
A buddy of mine discovered Gardobor for the first time, and went crazy about how bad and awful it was. "They just took a pile of garbage and put a face on it!" When I brought up Muk he defended it like crazy bringing up all the lore and stuff, when I told him that Gardobor had the exact same backstory, he brought up that Muk was at least a natural occurrence. My reply:" In what world is industrial waste natural?"
With all his arguments exhausted he finally resorted to simply saying that Muk is more real than Gardobor to him.
Sometimes it's hard to take off the nostalgia glasses.
A buddy of mine discovered Gardobor for the first time, and went crazy about how bad and awful it was. "They just took a pile of garbage and put a face on it!" When I brought up Muk he defended it like crazy bringing up all the lore and stuff, when I told him that Gardobor had the exact same backstory, he brought up that Muk was at least a natural occurrence. My reply:" In what world is industrial waste natural?"
With all his arguments exhausted he finally resorted to simply saying that Muk is more real than Gardobor to him.
Sometimes it's hard to take off the nostalgia glasses.
As mimics, both Voltorb/Electrode and Foongus/Amoongus aren't great because they're almost entirely restricted to certain areas. If you know where to expect mimics, they lose their surprise factor pretty quick.
It'd be like if Dark Souls had mimics only show up in Sen's Fortress and then disappear for the rest of the game.
It'd be like if Dark Souls had mimics only show up in Sen's Fortress and then disappear for the rest of the game.
g.r.e.
Member
I've noticed that's pretty easy for posters to write people off as "genwunners"(???) and "nostalgia-goggles wearers", without contributing anything to the discussion.
You bring up Dark Souls, but after the first mimic you end up poking every chest out of fear of being eaten alive(or checking out for the different chain design), thus effectively reducing the surprise factor by a huge margin.
Voltorbs work as mimics
because you don't expect them to blow up when you first encounter them. Simple.
Mimics only work effectively the first time you meet them: they fuck you up, and then you play more cautiously thereafter.
You bring up Dark Souls, but after the first mimic you end up poking every chest out of fear of being eaten alive(or checking out for the different chain design), thus effectively reducing the surprise factor by a huge margin.
Voltorbs work as mimics
reminder: deadly traps disguised as treasure
papertoonz
Member
In this world, I'm afraid.
that's just gameplay, like i said nothing about there designs are threatening
heck not even is any there old gen 1 sprites are creepy
g.r.e.
Member
Maybe because gameplay elements can give character to a design?
If mimics in Dark Souls were to just give you a kick they wouldn't be as memorable, would they?
Voltorbs and Electrode are threatening because they are angry/smug as fuck & they can OTKO one of your pokemons. And after the explosion, they're gone(so now you're down one party member, and the potential loot is gone too).
If this is not threatening, I don't know what would be in your book, especially in a series like Pokemon.
Lyon N. Laap
Member
Isn't it just as easy for people to driveby post insulting everything that isn't part of the first two generations? That doesn't contribute anything either.
Besides, there's not much writing off happening in this thread, people at least explained why they don't think Pokémon designs have fallen off the cliff. Like by comparing designs, or that fun fact about recycling of ideas.
So I'm not sure what you're reacting to.
ShironRedshift
Member
That and the fact that the only reason that Voltorb/Electrode even "work" as mimics to begin with is because the Game Boy games used the same exact sprites for both, despite them being absolutely nothing alike. Like, when they show up in the anime for instance, it typically just doesn't work at all and looks ridiculous that Ash would mistake them for anything because of their size (and because of their giant eyes, which, since they can't actually transform, look really silly when they just suddenly pop out of nowhere) which is why they decided to just have them as things that blow up as often as actually being mimics.
That's not a problem for Mimics in games like DQ/Dark Souls/Kid Icarus Uprising: etc, because they start off looking identical to chests in both size and shape and then transform when people try to open them. That doesn't work for Voltorb/Electrode. They're not the same size as a Pokeball/item to begin with and it only works because of sprite limitations and such on the Game Boy they could pretend that they were the "same" size and stuff even when they weren't. And it's even weirder when you consider their Pokedex entries, where they specifically reference that it's indeed Pokeballs they're supposed to be mimicking, and not item balls/capsules which are more ambiguous in size (if they really even exist at all since unlike chests in DQ/Souls/Kid Icarus the signs/NPC dialogue imply that the items you find on the ground are just stuff that trainers accidentally dropped on their journey which the game just represents as Pokeballs since you haven't ID'd them yet/to keep it a mystery what they actually are and not because they actually are in giant Pokeballs that trainers apparently keep they're stuff in but we never hear them talk about them even existing/keeping stuff in/buying or using Pokeballs for that purpose), despite the fact that they can't transform at all, and are 1"8'/.51m tall. What Pokeball is almost 2 feet tall? The concept's gibberish and only works cause they could fudge it with sprites.
Of course, it could easily be fixed if they did transform or if they were only like maybe 6 inches at most, but neither of those are what Game Freak chose, so the fact that they're supposed to be mimics is just really bizarre. The only reason they "worked" at all is literally because of game mechanics (using the same sprite to represent to unlike things)/Game Freak forcing them to despite it not making sense, even by Pokemon standards. That's all.
...Can't believe I just spent that long talking about how stupid Voltorb/Electrode are, but there it is.
g.r.e.
Member
I'm reacting to post #155, in particular, which is completely unrelated to anything but the "genwunners" vs "pokemon masters"(I don't know which is the correct term, sorry) narrative, complete with an anectode that may or may not have happened.
It's like making diet ad hominems.
It's wrong to focus on their visual design, when their in game concept works so well. You're right that the pokemon and its lore are incoherent, but is that really the point?
Voltorbs were made to fool the player, not the in-game characters. They worked because of game mechanics, and despite it not making sense, they did what mimics do.
Isn't that the most important thing in a game(which makes the encounter memorable)?
By the way, I couldn't imagine in my life I'd be defending Voltorb/Electrode gameplay design, but oh well.
I'm reacting to post #155, in particular, which is completely unrelated to anything but the "genwunners" vs "pokemon masters"(I don't know which is the correct term, sorry) narrative, complete with an anectode that may or may not have happened.
It's like making diet ad hominems.
It's wrong to focus on their visual design, when their in game concept works so well. You're right that the pokemon and its lore are incoherent, but is that really the point?
Voltorbs were made to fool the player, not the in-game characters. They worked because of game mechanics, and despite it not making sense, they did what mimics do.
Isn't that the most important thing in a game(which makes the encounter memorable)?
By the way, I couldn't imagine in my life I'd be defending Voltorb/Electrode gameplay design, but oh well.
First of all, its "genwunners" vs "Normal people who adapt to change and dont hate everything new because of an inability to catch up"
Secondly, the bolded is the most hypocritical thing a gen 5 basher can say lol because the vast majority of gen 5 gameplay-wise is probably the best pokemon has ever been.
And all this bullshit pedantry about what a mimic should be is extra stupid because voltorb/electrode were never scary or intimidating as most people had potions by this point and selfdestruct very rarely killed anything lmao. Maybe for the first encounter it was threatening(just like amoonguss) but after that first encounter they were whatever.
Bout to ask a mod to lock this thread if I see one more person talk trash about my boys Voltorb and Electrode. One of the best mimic designs. Not to mention Voltorb Flip. I sure as shit don't see [Insert Favorite Pokémon]Flip. Even Electrode is a Smash staple. They don't just let anyone in those Poke Balls.
AlexFlame116
Member
ANYWAYS DUSK LYCANROC SURE LOOKS BETTER THAN HIS MIDDAY FORM TO ME!
Voltorb Flip is fucking garbage
Bobo Dakes
Member
That's not being a "genwunner", that's my reaction to you spewing some intentionally ignorant shit.
That's like me saying the first good Final Fantasy was X (when X was my first game).
That's like me saying the first good Mario game was Sunshine.
That's like me saying 3D Zeldas weren't good until Twilight Princess.
That's like me just saying some really dumb antagonizing shit which is what you did.
NightwingRebirth
Member
Yeah, but that's why I wish this was what Midday looked like all along, and that Dusk could've gotten something more interesting.
And I don't know where the discussion about Gens. 1 and 2 versus the rest is going, but imo, Gen. 3 was the first time I felt there was actually a number of interesting designs beyond the usual ones like the starters as a kid. I feel the same way now about most of the Gens. that came next (I skipped both 5 and 6, so I can't really talk about those, but that's how I feel about 4 and 7). Granted, I'm the kinda person who was salivating for Alolan forms and genuinely liked most Mega Evolutions, so I can imagine why people would disagree with me. And I should clarify that this is just my opinion on the Dexes, not the games themselves, Gold is still a special game to me, but man were most of those Pokemon boring, lol. We need Johto-Alolan forms.
You mean 20 years of evolution and improvement?
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
Yes and Voltorb/Electrode do that? Hah no. Not at all. Their look nor their moveset never screams lifethreatening.
Also nice headcanon - mimics are never about lifethreatening - literally their base reference is "it's a monster pretending to be a treasure", nothing else. At most, what you did is inferring. Voltorb/Electrode do not fit that, and even Foongus/Amoongus did, but at least the designers were more tongue-in-cheek in that unlike Voltorb/Electrode.
And again - even if we include that reference, Voltorb/Electrode are not lifethreatening at all, so your post again is very laughable.
In this world, I'm afraid.
I've never talked about PVP, and I don't even care about that. It could be a flying shit pokemon design wise, but if it had good stats and a great moveset it would be a top pick regardless.
Explosion and Selfdestruct are hilariously lifethreatening as Tackle especially at the moment where you encounter them.
Hell various media even plays them up as gags.
And I love how you ignore that aspect when it's arguably one of the more objective views on Pokemon. I mean, your point was "gameplay-wise", yet now you're dismissing it? Hilarious.
Except they don't. The only time you miss out is the potential catch, and even then they're not exactly as uncommon.
And no, that isn't threatening. At that point in the game you'd have pokemon who either have high resistance to a fucking NORMAL type move or have high HP.
Please make up your mind - are you complaining about design or gameplay? Because you keep flipflopping on both accounts. And yes, incoherence is a thing since we later see them rectify this shit.
Also I disagree on that player character defense when other games do it and they do it pretty much properly with no iota of confusion.
I don't even really care about whether the design are lazy or not.
My chagrin is when people go all "oh they're mimics!" as though they found some sort of discovery and are trying to sound smarter. As though mimics don't exist in other games (done better might I add). But then it's good because it lets you in fact dissect their really shambling argument.
It sucks because when designs do have thought put into them (like say Tyrantrum) people just shun them but you get shit like that and you got tons of defenders using that shallow form of defense, it really makes you wonder.
AlexFlame116
Member
Guys please get back on topic. PM each other if it's that important.
Yeah you're right. I was indifferent towards both forms of Lycanroc in Sun and Moon but this new form is the first time that I actually want one in my party!
I feel like I can count the amount of times I've been seriously threatened by a wild voltorb or electrode on one hand, if that even.
Dusk Lycanroc looks like what I wanted Midday to be in the first place, but now that it's an event mon I'm worried it's gonna be overpowered compared to the others lol
Dusk Lycanroc looks like what I wanted Midday to be in the first place, but now that it's an event mon I'm worried it's gonna be overpowered compared to the others lol
Bobo Dakes
Member
Here's my stance, every gen as their winners and losers.
I give gen 1 a pass on some things because they were first and I can't really say what Pokemon SHOULD look like, especially learning they were designed in game, not concept art. The only BAD design I would point out from then is Jynx. I would never go in on Gen 1 for its simplicity, those designs in all gens remain some of the best.
Sludge with eyes gets points for consistency in its shape and color. Garbodor loses more points for being the thing they did already, but more convoluted. Gen 1 has simplicity on its side, some future designs went overboard.
Gen 2 has winners and losers, but they blended great with gen 1. They came up with some GREAT evolutions for gen 2 Pokemon. They gave you more of what we came to expect from the series.
Gen 3 despite having some great winners, was the first time I found myself a little more critical of the series. Was kind of meh on the starters, but hey they gave us Milotic and motherfucking Zangoose.
Gen 4 was an improvement, but this is when I feel likey started over designing Pokemon, especially the new gen 1 evolution (Magmortar, Tangrowth, Electrevire). Had better starters than gen 3.
Gen 5 they had all the faith in the world with the new designs by putting them so up front and while some were good, I don't think (design wise) they were good enough to carry the bulk of the game on their own. But hey, they gave us Smugleaf.
Gen 6 once again an improvement. I appreciated the less is more approach (not feeling like they had to give us 100 new Pokemon). Some duds here and there (those fairies), but I think a lot of them are consistently good (and simple). They had me at Honedge.
Gen 7 I think they tried everything. Some cool, some simple, some and over-designed mess. But hey, I can still point to 20 of these and be like I want this guy on my team which is all I ask for at this point. Tapu Koko is that dude.
I give gen 1 a pass on some things because they were first and I can't really say what Pokemon SHOULD look like, especially learning they were designed in game, not concept art. The only BAD design I would point out from then is Jynx. I would never go in on Gen 1 for its simplicity, those designs in all gens remain some of the best.
Sludge with eyes gets points for consistency in its shape and color. Garbodor loses more points for being the thing they did already, but more convoluted. Gen 1 has simplicity on its side, some future designs went overboard.
Gen 2 has winners and losers, but they blended great with gen 1. They came up with some GREAT evolutions for gen 2 Pokemon. They gave you more of what we came to expect from the series.
Gen 3 despite having some great winners, was the first time I found myself a little more critical of the series. Was kind of meh on the starters, but hey they gave us Milotic and motherfucking Zangoose.
Gen 4 was an improvement, but this is when I feel likey started over designing Pokemon, especially the new gen 1 evolution (Magmortar, Tangrowth, Electrevire). Had better starters than gen 3.
Gen 5 they had all the faith in the world with the new designs by putting them so up front and while some were good, I don't think (design wise) they were good enough to carry the bulk of the game on their own. But hey, they gave us Smugleaf.
Gen 6 once again an improvement. I appreciated the less is more approach (not feeling like they had to give us 100 new Pokemon). Some duds here and there (those fairies), but I think a lot of them are consistently good (and simple). They had me at Honedge.
Gen 7 I think they tried everything. Some cool, some simple, some and over-designed mess. But hey, I can still point to 20 of these and be like I want this guy on my team which is all I ask for at this point. Tapu Koko is that dude.
That's not being a "genwunner", that's my reaction to you spewing some intentionally ignorant shit.
That's like me saying the first good Final Fantasy was X (when X was my first game).
That's like me saying the first good Mario game was Sunshine.
That's like me saying 3D Zeldas weren't good until Twilight Princess.
That's like me just saying some really dumb antagonizing shit which is what you did.
You need to realize your opinion isnt fact and there is no objective "best", and uh, im not the one being kind of a mean spirited prick about any of it.
Sunshine IS the best Mario, Twilight Princess IS the best Zelda, and X is one of the best Final Fantasies. You listed literally my favorite game from each franchise. And you know what? I'm not wrong. Because it's my opinion.
Now you can take your opinion, and swallow it, because I dont wanna hear it after that.
edit: also lol calling opinions "intentionally ignorant shit" as if its on the level of having bigoted beliefs lol
Jesus pokemon fans are awful
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
twilight's default stance really sucks though, should be more dynamic to set himself apart from day
Gen I has firsts, so it has that. It was the first in stuff, and to hold them contempt in that is fruitless. What is bad however is people thinking "it's first therefore it cannot be criticized or is the best".
Err... when was Garbodor inconsistent. And convulted how? It's literally garbage came to life, but unlike Garbodor, is actually eco-friendly (it eats garbage and pollution).
And I disagree on your stance when people shit post that modern Pokemon can either be overdesigned or underdesigned. I remember a poster here saying that "modern gen starters suffer a 'circular head' shape" to which I roll my eyes and shrug, for instance.
Gen I has firsts, so it has that. It was the first in stuff, and to hold them contempt in that is fruitless. What is bad however is people thinking "it's first therefore it cannot be criticized or is the best".
Err... when was Garbodor inconsistent. And convulted how? It's literally garbage came to life, but unlike Garbodor, is actually eco-friendly (it eats garbage and pollution).
And I disagree on your stance when people shit post that modern Pokemon can either be overdesigned or underdesigned. I remember a poster here saying that "modern gen starters suffer a 'circular head' shape" to which I roll my eyes and shrug, for instance.
Vital Tundra
Member
Thats an alright idea I suppose.
Bobo Dakes
Member
Oh so you're mad because I predicted you.
You can share an opinion without being dismissive of everything that came before which is what I personally took issue with. I laid out my opinion of every gen (I believe) without any disrespect to the creators or it's fans.
You read my thing and instantly went "ugh genwunner". Did I overreact to your first comment, probably, but that's because it was THAT obnoxious of a thing to say.
My biggest flaw as a person is always needing to be right, but when you're this fucking right it's hard to see this as something to work on.
AlexFlame116
Member
People take it somewhere else. Its incredibly annoying seeing all this talk about Gens and "how a Pokémon is supposed to look". I don't care if you think you're absolutely right, it's still your opinion.
This topic is about Lycanroc and to a little smaller extent, Ultra Sun and Ultra Moon.
This topic is about Lycanroc and to a little smaller extent, Ultra Sun and Ultra Moon.
Bobo Dakes
Member
I can look at Pokemon like Duduo, Seel, Seaking and go well that's bland and uninteresting, but I can't with a straight face say that's a bad design. And my "best" statement only applied to gens with simplistic designs (which all of them do). I see it as a risk reward kind of thing. Gen 1 played it the safest because they were still trying to figure out what Pokemon were, creatures we shared a world with, of course you're looking at animals or something in the real world.
Muk is sludge. Garbador looks like a trashbag that bursting with grime that they then put blue and pink growths on. It's existence looks physically painful. That's not to say it looks bad, but what exactly is it? What are it's arms? Convoluted might've been too strong a word.
Why would I want this cutie to evolve?
I seriously wish the gen war shit in every Pokemon thread was bannable. It only ever derails the thread and adds nothing to the discussion.
Bobo Dakes
Member
I mean, I get it, but HOW MUCH is there to say about this game and a form that's literally just a mixture of two forms we saw not even a year ago.
AlexFlame116
Member
If anything it also makes us all mad at each other. You're right though. At least I wish there was actual thread where people could discuss (and I really mean discuss) the different generations of Pokémon. Each Gen has it's good and bad.
Well then let's not say anything until we get new info. If the thread dissipates it's better than getting locked or something.
We could speculate about what Lycanroc-Dusk will add to the meta, we could speculate about what it having a new form means for other potential additions in this game, we could speculate about which Pokemon will get those new forms and what they'll be like. And at a broader sense what to expect from US/UM in general based on past games.
Anything's better than these insipid arguments about trying to prove which generation's monster designs in a series of pretty damn rock solid games is better than the others based on an arbitrary pass/fail criteria that's inevitably going to vary from person to person.
I'm done responding lol
I, personally, think all Pokemon are good pokemon. Every single one. Even the ones I dont love I still appreciate. Ice cream monster? My child. Key ring fairy? Cool concept! The worst thing a Pokemon can be to me is boring, which the Lycanrocs(except midnight) are imo
This Lycanroc is the first real time I've looked at a Pokemon and thought "lazy", especially because of the event exclusivity.
This Lycanroc is the first real time I've looked at a Pokemon and thought "lazy", especially because of the event exclusivity.
I hope they somehow make Guzzlord not trash :/ One of my favorite gen 7 designs and its stats are so lackluster compared to other UBs
Boss Doggie
all my loli wolf companions are so moe
I try to add on-topic stuff.
I do wonder what its stat distribution is though. Having both Accel Rock and Counter is fine, but if it has "shared" stats it might end up being more garbage than the two.
It's more to do with the limitations of the machine it's coming from. It's why Gen V has Klinklang - to emphasize the looping gif animation. Or why Gen VI has Honedge, to emphasize it being 3D (thus sheathing and unsheathing). It's also why I feel judging Gen VI and VII mons merely from its static art is a bad idea, and why I think this new Lycanroc suffers from it - because it's too static.
It's a pile of garbage, all of it is garbage, its arms are garbage stuff like thrown strings or rope. You already seen the focal point of its design - garbage popping out of a bag.
I do wonder what its stat distribution is though. Having both Accel Rock and Counter is fine, but if it has "shared" stats it might end up being more garbage than the two.
It's more to do with the limitations of the machine it's coming from. It's why Gen V has Klinklang - to emphasize the looping gif animation. Or why Gen VI has Honedge, to emphasize it being 3D (thus sheathing and unsheathing). It's also why I feel judging Gen VI and VII mons merely from its static art is a bad idea, and why I think this new Lycanroc suffers from it - because it's too static.
It's a pile of garbage, all of it is garbage, its arms are garbage stuff like thrown strings or rope. You already seen the focal point of its design - garbage popping out of a bag.
MikeBreezy92
Member
I love how people get baited every time into Gen 1 discussions. Like clockwork.
I actually like Dusk Lycanroc though. I think it's the color scheme. It's shiny-esque without being shiny.
I actually like Dusk Lycanroc though. I think it's the color scheme. It's shiny-esque without being shiny.
savage Joe lol
Bobo Dakes
Member
WrenchNinja
Member
Just don't even understand why they made a new form for it in the first place. Lycanroc is barely mediocre, it doesnt get any real play in competition, all it had was the evolution gimmick and Accelrock to make it interesting which wasn't a big deal cause Lycanroc's stats and abilties are nothing to write home about. Now with tough claws and accelrock I mean maybe it could do some damage but they'd still have to give it much better stats and movepool than the original pair which I doubt they'll do if they want to brag about it getting fucking Counter from Midnight form.
Just seems like the only reason it exists is because they want Ash's to be a special little snowflake to differentiate with Olivia and Gladion, kind of like Ash-Greninja, but at least Ash-Greninja is good in game because Greninja was already a good starting point in game.
Just seems like the only reason it exists is because they want Ash's to be a special little snowflake to differentiate with Olivia and Gladion, kind of like Ash-Greninja, but at least Ash-Greninja is good in game because Greninja was already a good starting point in game.
There was an old official art I remember that actually showed it being super cute.
Finally we get the human pokemon fusion we were waiting for?
Poor little guy, forever stuck by himself in my Soul Silver cart.
Though a small oddity is that Sun/Moon has a box sprite for the little guy.
In HG/SS his box sprite is just that of a normal Pichu, so why add one now?
Spiky-eared Pichu is 100% female by the way. Just wanted to point that out.
I still want a Platinum Pokemon REBurst game goddammit