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DVD Review : HD-DVD and Blu-Ray impressions

Izzy

Banned
Many of you have probably noticed that I have been conspicuously quiet and restrained on the subject of high definition DVD to this point. This has nothing to do with disinterest, of course, but more with the fact that I just wanted to see how things develop before building an opinion and making it public.

Recently I visited the Consumer Electronics Show (CES) in Las Vegas in hopes to find out some more hard facts and up-to-date details about the two proposed formats, HD-DVD and Blu-Ray. After walking the floor, seeing many of the presentations I found one of my concerns sadly reinforced. I was utterly unimpressed with HD-DVD. Seriously! You can tell from its positioning, the way it’s being bullishly promoted, etc. that HD-DVD is a format that is created to fill an artificially created demand that does not exist. Worst of all however, it looks pretty poor.

Sure, at first you look at these high definition video images and you are vowed because of their clarity and resolution. If you look a bit closer however, the images on display were riddled with compression and mastering artifacts that would make you balk if this were a DVD. And that was for the big bang promotions at CES, the single biggest show on the planet to promote these things. If that is the best they can do, I am sorry to say “Thank you, but no, thank you!”

I was utterly unimpressed with HD-DVD

If I make the transition to high definition video I expect an image that is free of artifacts as we know them today. It needs to be absolutely clear, without edge-enhancement, without ringing, without dot crawl and without pixelation. HD-DVD has yet to prove it can offer that. Toshiba’s HD-DVD presentations at last year’s CES were ridiculously bad with colors that were bleeding to no end, and this year’s concerted effort of the industry was not much better. With its limited storage capacity HD-DVD is prone to over-compression to make room for audio tracks and supplements much the way DVD is actually, it is so even more because the required storage/quality ratio is much higher. Add to that the fact that the MPEG-4 compression theme has completely different characteristics than DVD’s MPEG-2 compression and a lot of disastrous quick-shot releases are already pre-programmed.

Enter Blu-Ray. At CES I saw among others Panasonic’s demonstration of Disney’s “Aladdin” on Blu-Ray and the effect was profound. I noticed details in the image that I had never seen before, not even in the theatrical prints. The lines of the image were so fine, it was unbelievable, and best of all the image was without a hint of an artifact. Perfect color balance, perfect shadow delineation, perfect edges and rock solid colors and blacks. I noticed the same effect on other Blu-Ray presentations and clearly, this is what I am looking for. A format that not only holds the promise of the future, but fulfills it.

The war between the two formats is on and a lot of mouthing off is going on, one side trying to best the other. A lot of arguments are flying around in the course of these heated discussions, many of which are nothing but artificial justifications for pointless issues. Case in point? Backwards compatibility for example, one of the hottest touted selling points of the HD-DVD camp. Frankly however, who cares? I have a DVD player and I don’t need a high definition player to play the same discs. Even if my DVD player should break it’s a mere $50 to replace it, but honestly, by the time it does break and needs replacement, I probably won’t even care any more, just as I didn’t replace my last VHS player when it broke. But even if, adding a red laser to a Blu-Ray unit to make it DVD/CD compatible adds a mere 25 cents or less to the overall manufacturing costs of the unit. So, this is a ridiculously naught argument upon closer examination, especially in the light that the first models will probably retail around $1000.- anyway.

There’s also a lot of talk about the manufacturing compatibility of HD-DVD with existing replication equipment, an issue especially the studios are made to believe to be interested in. However there is also a bit of lapse in logic here. What good is this if you’ll need two or three discs to hold the same material that a single Blu-Ray disc could hold? Your cost benefit goes right out the door. Again, it is a short-sighted argument that doesn’t necessarily hold true in practice. If you’ve followed DVD as closely as I have over the past 8 years, you know that a lot of things have changed in that period of time, even in the replication field. That change won’t stop. The digital age is moving fast and it will require replicators to replace and/or upgrade their equipment one way or another, come HD-DVD or Blu-Ray. Of course the corporate suits running the studios these days don’t necessarily understand that, all they see is the superficially saved buck here or there presented to them in a nice Excel spreadsheet.

One thing you do not hear a lot of talk about on the other hand is forward compatibility. Audio formats have evolved dramatically since the inception of DVD. From the 5.1 channel Dolby Digital standard of 1997 we have now reached discrete 7.1 channel audio support in home theaters and the development will continue. The next break-through in the audio world will be full 10.2 delivery for the home theater. What do you think which format will be better suited to deliver your 10.2 dts sound track in the future? The HD-DVD format, which by its very nature strapped for storage before it even gets out of the gate, or Blu-Ray, a format that is expandable beyond anything we can currently anticipate and will grow with the demands of the delivery platforms.

These, of course are only a few random thoughts and notes on the subject. There are copy protection issues, the lackluster title announcements of the HD-DVD-supporting studios did anyone else notice that Universal is planning to launch the format with the exact same titles it kicked off DVD 8 years ago? There’s nothing like kickstarting a new format with films like “Waterworld” that no one wants to see again anyway.

Books could be filled with more detailed elaborations and parables on both formats. The point I wanted to make after all this time is that I am firmly rooting for Blu-Ray. It is the better format, plain and simple, and the format that better serves the purposes of the home entertainment industry. Of course, no one in the HD-DVD camp will agree with me as they are busy shepherding out a mediocre premature product rather than seeing it through the right way. Corporate politics, patent interests and big egos make out this battle and if things don’t change, the consumer will lose out once again. I can only hope that once studios like Warner, Universal and the rest of the lot will announce their Blu-Ray support it won’t be too late to drive the market in the right direction. And believe you me, they WILL announce Blu-Ray support, just as Sony Pictures will announce HD-DVD support. Let’s not forget that these are all publicly traded companies and the pressure from Wall Street will not allow that these entities to miss out on business opportunities and emerging markets. If you’re a public company you do as you’re told! There is no room for personal preferences in these entities, and for once in my life that makes me happy, because it will force all the format war participants to reconsider their odds at one point.

Link
 

gofreak

GAF's Bob Woodward
I want a PS3 now...and that Aladdin disk :(

edit - I'm a complete noob, but what's the standard resolution that all Blu-Ray movies will support? Will they support multiple HD resolutions for different displays? 720p or 1080i would seem like the safest bet to accomodate the widest range of display hardware currently in homes..? If it's 1080p only, then damn...I just invested in HD (720p/1080i).
 

kaching

"GAF's biggest wanker"
gofreak, HDDVD & BluRay will want to sell to as large an audience as they can, even non-HDTV audience, so whatever the native resolution of the movie on disc (supposed to be full 1080p), the machines should be able to scale the output resolution accordingly. It won't require that everyone who has already bought an HDTV go out and buy new one that specifically supports 1080p.

As for this editorial, being a proponent of BRD over HDDVD myself, this guy's approach to advocacy of the format would almost turn me off to it if I didn't know better. "Who cares about backwards compatability"? WTF?
 

mrklaw

MrArseFace
I hope that whichever HD solution wins, they really push the envelope. I want no limitations due to 'backward compatibility' with old TVs. that means no downmixing my soundtrack (the machine can do it), and no filtering of the video when mastered - again, give me maximum potential res, and the machine can filter for interlaced displays if required.
 

Crow

Member
Backwards compatibility for example, one of the hottest touted selling points of the HD-DVD camp. Frankly however, who cares? I have a DVD player and I don’t need a high definition player to play the same discs.

Remember stating the backward compatibility issue with Blueray in another thread and got shot down as nonsense. Feeling as though I was originally told wrong i backed down, but this sentence suggests what I said about HD-DVD being backwards compatible with DVD's and Blueray not being so was correct.

But I still think Blueray is the stronger of the two anyway.
 

HyperionX

Member
This is the most retarded thing I've ever read. Ignoring the countless factual errors in this piece, you're not going to notice that big of a difference between HD-DVD's WMV compression and Bluray's MPEG-2 compression scheme unless you're using a magnifying glass, and many claim that WMV is superior to MPEG-2 for that matter.

Fanboyism++
 
HyperionX said:
This is the most retarded thing I've ever read. Ignoring the countless factual errors in this piece, you're not going to notice that big of a difference between HD-DVD's WMV compression and Bluray's MPEG-2 compression scheme unless you're using a magnifying glass, and many claim that WMV is superior to MPEG-2 for that matter.

Fanboyism++

This report isn't comparing codec's per se. And are you confusing MPEG-2 w/ MPEG-4? MPEG-2 is what current DVD's are using and Blu-Ray would be absolutely no different in that regard from HD-DVD or current DVD's.

However, despite the fact that both HD-DVD and Blu-Ray will use the same codes (MPEG2, MPEG4, VC1 (WMV9)), that doesn't mean that there is only one way to translate a movie to these formats. The movie studio has the capability to use more or less compression as a trade-off for space both on the audio and video side.

It is definitely the case that the exact same movie can be encoded to the same codec, in significantly different ways, resulting in different bit sizes.

And if you can't see the difference between MPEG-2 and one of the HD codecs, you should just stick w/ DVD's.
 

Izzy

Banned
HyperionX said:
This is the most retarded thing I've ever read. Ignoring the countless factual errors in this piece, you're not going to notice that big of a difference between HD-DVD's WMV compression and Bluray's MPEG-2 compression scheme unless you're using a magnifying glass, and many claim that WMV is superior to MPEG-2 for that matter.

Fanboyism++

You must be confused - there'll be no difference in codec support between the two standards.
 

gofreak

GAF's Bob Woodward
Crow said:
Remember stating the backward compatibility issue with Blueray in another thread and got shot down as nonsense. Feeling as though I was originally told wrong i backed down, but this sentence suggests what I said about HD-DVD being backwards compatible with DVD's and Blueray not being so was correct.

Hmm..? Blu-ray absolutely is bc with DVD. Or at least, if Blu-ray as a specification does not insist on it, Blu-ray players will be.
 

btrboyev

Member
Enter Blu-Ray. At CES I saw among others Panasonic’s demonstration of Disney’s “Aladdin” on Blu-Ray and the effect was profound. I noticed details in the image that I had never seen before, not even in the theatrical prints

I must say as an animated film, finding new details is uterly bullshit..if you didn't see tham before your not gonna see them because of a higher resolution with an animated film. I own the DVD, I watched it in high def when it was on abc..your not going to see anything difference.
 

jedimike

Member
I think the author's distaste of HD-DVD had more to do with the medium than it had to do with the hardware. Cartoon vs. Film is not an accurate way to review the formats. There are many cartoon DVD's in my collection today that look almost HD in 480P.

I want to see a review where the author uses the same source material and viewed on the same HDTV. That's really the only way to see which one is "better".
 

chinch

Tenacious-V Redux
i stopped reading when this tool mentioned Aladdin.

comparing a disney cartoon to a film is silly.

you could make a 1998 lcd projector with 200:1 contrast ratio playing toy story dvd outperform HDTV this way.

LOL.
 
Why would you want HD-DVD over Blu-Ray though?

Regardless of compression codec, at the end of the day, Blu-Ray has more storage space and is a recordable format.

I mean people are bitching that these next gen HD formats don't offer a big enough jump as is from DVD, and HD-DVD offers the smaller jump.

It's more like DVD 1.5.

Cost differences will be negligable in three years when either format is actually relevant to the mass market.
 

Nerevar

they call me "Man Gravy".
gofreak said:
edit - I'm a complete noob, but what's the standard resolution that all Blu-Ray movies will support? Will they support multiple HD resolutions for different displays? 720p or 1080i would seem like the safest bet to accomodate the widest range of display hardware currently in homes..? If it's 1080p only, then damn...I just invested in HD (720p/1080i).

Neither HD-DVD nor Blu-Ray will offer support for 1080p. They will be locked in at 720p / 1080i. This is the primary reason the 1080p sets that are to be released this year don't actually support 1080p input - there is nothing currently on the market or planned that will support 1080p output.
 

shpankey

not an idiot
I also like BRD over HD-DVD, but this whole article is nothing more than complete fanboy drivel. I've never seen a more one sided argument made in my life. It almost makes me want HD-DVD instead because of his fucking pathetic self debate.

And honestly, he is lying about seeing artifacts. He only said that to try to persuade the hardcore videophiles to side with him.
 

Deg

Banned
Nerevar said:
Neither HD-DVD nor Blu-Ray will offer support for 1080p. They will be locked in at 720p / 1080i. This is the primary reason the 1080p sets that are to be released this year don't actually support 1080p input - there is nothing currently on the market or planned that will support 1080p output.

Well that sucks.
 

HyperionX

Member
Izzy said:
You must be confused - there'll be no difference in codec support between the two standards.

That's not what I've around about a year ago, though that may have changed if that's the case.

Anyways, given that the difference in storage size is 30GB vs 50GB, it's very unlikely that you're going to notice any difference unless you're specifically looking for it, and judging from this guys degree of stupidity in writing this I'd doubt he could, fanboy glasses notwithholding.
 

teiresias

Member
HyperionX said:
This is the most retarded thing I've ever read. Ignoring the countless factual errors in this piece, you're not going to notice that big of a difference between HD-DVD's WMV compression and Bluray's MPEG-2 compression scheme unless you're using a magnifying glass, and many claim that WMV is superior to MPEG-2 for that matter.

Fanboyism++

I can only laugh at the fact that this post complains about factual errors. :lol :lol :lol
 

pcostabel

Gold Member
Nerevar said:
Neither HD-DVD nor Blu-Ray will offer support for 1080p. They will be locked in at 720p / 1080i. This is the primary reason the 1080p sets that are to be released this year don't actually support 1080p input - there is nothing currently on the market or planned that will support 1080p output.

1080i can be easily upconverted to 1080p, especially for filmed material. That's how progressive scan DVD players work. There is no need to have 1080p Blu-Ray/HD-DVD discs.
 

Nerevar

they call me "Man Gravy".
pcostabel said:
1080i can be easily upconverted to 1080p, especially for filmed material. That's how progressive scan DVD players work. There is no need to have 1080p Blu-Ray/HD-DVD discs.

Oh, I agree that it can be upconverted. But you're completely wrong in saying that there's no difference between upconverted material and material that's natively shot in progressive scan.
 

border

Member
HyperionX said:
Anyways, given that the difference in storage size is 30GB vs 50GB, it's very unlikely that you're going to notice any difference unless you're specifically looking for it, and judging from this guys degree of stupidity in writing this I'd doubt he could, fanboy glasses notwithholding.
I'd imagine that offering 66% more storage space is going to make for much better quality encodes with less compression.

What makes this guy so stupid? You seem to be the one working with year-old data.
 

Mashing

Member
10.2 sound... who gives a fuck. Costs too damn much as it is... they don't need to be taking more money out of my pocket and I doubt my impaired hearing could make out the discrete channels away (I have enough problem with 5.1)

I'm also in Blu-Ray camp for the simple reason he stated... it is foward thinking. I'm in the IT industry and scalability is an absolute must.
 

Azrael

Member
Remember stating the backward compatibility issue with Blueray in another thread and got shot down as nonsense. Feeling as though I was originally told wrong i backed down, but this sentence suggests what I said about HD-DVD being backwards compatible with DVD's and Blueray not being so was correct.

I guess you missed this part...

But even if, adding a red laser to a Blu-Ray unit to make it DVD/CD compatible adds a mere 25 cents or less to the overall manufacturing costs of the unit. So, this is a ridiculously naught argument upon closer examination, especially in the light that the first models will probably retail around $1000.- anyway.
 
I'd like a little more balanced impression piece on the two formats. Can anyone link me? I mean I can understand preferring one over the other, but it's hard for me to imagine that HD-DVD is that bad right now.
 

scarybore

Member
I honestly can't see why anyone would choose HD-DVD over Blu-Ray, especially for personal recording, unless Blu-Ray hardwae or media was extremely overpriced compared to HD-DVD which I expect it wont be.
 

Brofist

Member
Assuming similar price points, why in hell would anyone choose the smaller of the 2? Looking at single layer comparison across the formats.. DVD (4.7GB) to HD-DVD (15GB) is the same more or less from a storage standpoint as HD-DVD (15GB) to BR(25GB).

I'm sorry but I dont want a half-assed intermidiate step, if I have to replace my DVDs I want it to be for a good reason.
 
Deathcraze said:
I honestly can't see why anyone would choose HD-DVD over Blu-Ray, especially for personal recording, unless Blu-Ray hardwae or media was extremely overpriced compared to HD-DVD which I expect it wont be.

What's really funny is how people are trying to discount the space advantage of Blu-Ray

You do know what DVD stands for, right?
"Digital Versatile discs provide superb video, audio and data storage and access -- all on one disc."

It was sold as an all-in-one media format and now people are saying, "who cares about what the computer manufacturers or consumer electronics companies want. All we need is to mostly fit a 2 hour HD-DVD movie there. That's it!". Why in the world would you ever try and hamstring the media in such a way?

1) Computers and recordable media devices will be able to use that space immediately.
2) Movies can be authored with much less compression producing better quality results
3) Games can eventually use the space when they need it.

The ONLY pro HD-DVD has at all right now is it's sharing the media format of standard DVD's, such that production facilties will be cheaper to ramp up.

Whereas, Blu-Ray has the advantage in storage and is already forwards capable of providing up to 8 layers (will take a few years to get there), whereas HDDVD is stuck at 2 for the same reasons that DVD was stuck at 2.

Also, Blu-Ray has specified a whole ton of functionality that must be present in terms of a built-in Java machine, 3 different layers of media authoring and intereactivity, and optional components of online connectivity.

Finally, the media cost between the two are essentially the same. The big cost is for production facilities to make the switch to new equipment. If you capitalize that cost on a per DVD disc, it would only be pennies per disc over the first year and then the cost will have been absorbed, removing HD-DVD's cost advantage on the media side completely.
 

pcostabel

Gold Member
Nerevar said:
Oh, I agree that it can be upconverted. But you're completely wrong in saying that there's no difference between upconverted material and material that's natively shot in progressive scan.

For material coming from film, there is pratically no difference. Of course there is a difference for material shot with an HDTV camera, but the vast majority of HD discs will be movies, so 1080p is unnecessary.
 

Enigma

Member
border said:
I'd imagine that offering 66% more storage space is going to make for much better quality encodes with less compression.

What makes this guy so stupid? You seem to be the one working with year-old data.

I don't understand the hatred either. Even standard DVDs are using massive compression. Up this to high-def where the data is much larger, and if you can reduce compression by half, that's a signficant difference.

And this whole 10.1 thing: KLee needs to enter the thread. Because 10.1 isn't what's important for most people, it's the boost in quality for even 5.1 set-ups. He had a thread about Dolby's Dolby Digital replacement for the upcoming consoles and High-def dvds. Sounded awesome... and I have zero intensions of having 10 speakers either.
 

jedimike

Member
BR has come along way... I remember not so long ago, when BR players would need to have a caddy, they wouldn't be compatable with DVD, and they were going to be substantially more expensive.

HD-DVD was the perfect alternative... low costs, compatability, same media.

Personally, I don't care anymore. They both offer what I want, which is HD movies. Early adopters will absorb all the costs anyways. I do think that anyone who goes out and buys either format is a complete fool. I will definitely wait before I spend one cent replacing my DVD collection. Fortunately, I'm old enough to remember betamax.
 

HokieJoe

Member
Mashing said:
10.2 sound... who gives a fuck. Costs too damn much as it is... they don't need to be taking more money out of my pocket and I doubt my impaired hearing could make out the discrete channels away (I have enough problem with 5.1)

I'm also in Blu-Ray camp for the simple reason he stated... it is foward thinking. I'm in the IT industry and scalability is an absolute must.

I agree (on the 10.2 encoding scheme part mostly) and on BluRay. The only problem I see with BluRay is that it will take longer to adopt. Thus, content will be slower in coming.

Moreover, when I lace up my new HD-whatever player I don't want my receiver to look like Starvin' Marvin' chugging along on 10.2 bit-starved DD or DTS streams. Just freaking give me a fully pumped 5.1 bitstream. A fully flushed 6.1 or 7.1 bitstream would be great, but mere icing at this point IMO.
 

Pimpwerx

Member
Yup., 10.2 sound is overkill. For now, and for the future. Jesus, some of us are still using regular stereos. My 10+ year old Aiwa CX-NA30 gives me all the audio quality I need. I'd love to have a 5.1 system, but it's really not necessary right now. 10.2 sounds like complete overkill. Who's got room for that many speakers? PEACE.
 

Ryudo

My opinion? USED.
What a tool, he is blaming HD-DVD when he should be blaming the codecs :lol

Blu-ray is better no doubt, but technology is slow to evolve.
 

thorns

Banned
Well AVC and WMV9 are quite advanced codecs, having 25GB over 15GB for 2-3 hours of film won't produce any noticable difference in quality. And this guy's obervations are bullshit, a fair quality comparison would be if he was asked to look at two videos, one with HD-DVD and one with Blu-ray and then later shown one random video asked which one it was. If this was done repeteadly and he could always tell which is which then it means there's a clear difference between the two. Otherwise it just means he's bullshiting (which is most probably the case here).

The problem with DVD video is not the space really, it's the very ancient compression technology used. You can have an 1.5 hour AVC movie fit on a CD and still look very good, even when encoded from the DVD. It will probably be as good as the DVD, just on a CD if encoded from the master source directly. It just takes a lot of processor power to decode it.

I think both formats are unnecessary and we should be looking for at least 100-200gb discs to switch to, instead of these stop gap solutions.
 

DCharlie

And even i am moderately surprised
"I think both formats are unnecessary and we should be looking for at least 100-200gb discs to switch to, instead of these stop gap solutions."

like the man says, lets have a REAL fricken jump. Dual DVDs are already close to 10 gig, lets bump up high!
 

Sho Nuff

Banned
Sony are buttholios, but you would have to be stupid not to support Blu-ray at this point in time. I needs that extry space!
 

Kleegamefan

K. LEE GAIDEN
Neither HD-DVD nor Blu-Ray will offer support for 1080p. They will be locked in at 720p / 1080i. This is the primary reason the 1080p sets that are to be released this year don't actually support 1080p input - there is nothing currently on the market or planned that will support 1080p output.

FOIST OF ALL.... the Faroudja LCOS (based on the D-ILA 2K) already offers 1080p inputs via HDMI *and* the upcoming D5 LCD 1080p products from Epson will also offer direct 1080p with more products to follow so although first gen 1080p products like the Sharp LCDs and the Sony SXRDs don't accept 1080p/24 at the moment, that will not stay that way forever......

2NDLY, having direct 1080p inputs only offers a theoreticall advantage at the moment since the Faroudja doesn't offer demonstratably better PQ than either a Qualia 004 SXRD or the JVC D-ILA 2K (which the Faroudja is based on) which both deintelace 1080i....this was demonstrated during a face off in December comparing the 3 on 1080p video which was sourced from a Teranex HDD...

#3-It is all a moot point if the 1080i video has embedded progressive flags which enables the deinterlacer to convert it back to 1080p via the inverse telcine process.....this is real 1080p folks...

Lastly, according to Sony, their BRD-ROM prototype @ CES accepted 1080p inputs and even so, you can STILL force 1080p video through 1080i inputs via 1080/24SpF (sequential progressive frame) so all is not lost even if we are forever "stuck" with 1080i :lol

Seriously, there is nothing to worry about concerning the theoreticall loss of PQ in the 1080i to 1080p conversion process...


Yeah, although the HD-DVD reps didn't do that great a job with their demos that doesn't mean BRD movies will always look better than HD-DVD....that will mostly depend on how the disk is authored and I assure you, some of the movie studios in the HD-DVD camp are more that cabable of producing content that will knock your socks off on that format...

That said, I am more bullish on BRD and it is true that the extra space encreases the likelyhood of better qualty audio/video on BRD vs. HD-DVD and more of it...that is just IMO...
 

TAJ

Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
>>>The next break-through in the audio world will be full 10.2 delivery for the home theater<<<

Ugh... The only breakthrough I want in HT audio is for DD and DTS to go away, and be replaced by lossless compression.
 
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