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[Sein]

These young recruits you keep mentioning don't have dick to "leverage"

I don't claim to be an industry insider, but this statement is necessarily false. Someone without any positional advantage doesn't get paid to work. In the extreme case where someone doesn't even have the leverage of being able to refuse, he can be forced to work for free, i.e., slavery. In any paid employment situation, there must be leverage on both sides, even if it's basically just a warm body.

And it's clear from the N.Y. Times article that youth is a distinct positional advantage for EA applicants:

The company has 3,300 employees in its studios developing game titles, and it hires 1,000 new people a year. (Company officials said voluntary turnover is about 10 percent annually.) In the past, it has hired only about 10 percent of new studio personnel directly from college; it has set a goal of increasing that to 75 percent, which would skew the median age still younger.

 

[Phoenix]

I was once in the industry and for the most part what is being said in the article is correct. It also depends a lot on what title you're working on when it comes to how much 'forced labor' you're going to have to endure. If you're working on a sports title, you will be in the worst shape because the sports seasons aren't going to take a break because your title didn't pass certification the first time through. Much of what I've seen of the industry after leaving it is that it has the worst management practices I've ever experienced. Much of the pain and suffering that development teams endure comes from poor planning early on in the process.

Many studios have tried to 'cut their development time' by using a variety of third party products only to be burned on them after they find that they won't work entirely for them without considerable modification - many times taking longer than it might have taken to write it from scratch to begin with. And like moths drawn to a flame, these studios keep making the same bad decisions time and time again. But if the product makes it to shelves, its okay - all is forgiven.

I've told many of my friends who wanted to go into the industry that it is not a decision to be made lightly because its not like any other job. In many respects your office will become your home and your job will become your life. If and only if that's fine should you even consider the industry. There are many people who are okay with this and they will endure being grossly underpaid to work in the industry. I myself took nearly at $15k paycut when I signed up - but that didn't matter to me at the time.

At any rate, this little speed bump isn't going to change a thing. These companies have far too much invested in their business models the way they are, and I sincerely doubt legions of gamers will boycott game studios in protest. The outrage of most gamers only goes so far.... ending about at the time the next version of Madden hits the shelves.

Its also not JUST EA, or the game industry. I see stuff like this in just about every product driven computer software shop all over the place.

 

[kaching]

Easier said than done, my friend. Some people have families to support (like myself) and fighting such a fight can result in worser hardships than just being forced to work overtime.

Spare me, Furious. I didn't suggest there was anything easy about how to deal with this situation. You're not exactly doing your family any favors either by allowing yourself to be worked to the bone such that you either eventually burn out and can't hold a steady, well-paying position to help support them and/or the stress of your working so hard begins to cause tension within family relationships that could boil over causing destructive rifts or worse.

 

[Phoenix]

Easier said than done, my friend. Some people have families to support (like myself) and fighting such a fight can result in worser hardships than just being forced to work overtime.

This is one of the reasons why I can't really sympathize with many of my friends who are still in the industry and complain about pay, conditions, etc. Its a life that they chose for themselves. So if you chose it, suck it up and deal with it. If you don't want to deal with it, you CAN leave - you CHOOSE not to leave. In no interview that I went on with ANY game company did anyone mislead me into believing that I would be working a 40 hour work week. In fact it was quite the opposite with people telling me 50-60 hour work weeks was the norm and should be expected.

 

[border]

Don't get me wrong here, I think the workers are right to complain and that the business practices are unfair...but I still think the end result will be poorer quality games or publishers folding even more easily

Oh come on, it just takes a little common sense to see that the pendulum swings both ways. It's not a clear issue at all.

Someone toiling away on their 65th hour of work in a single week is probably not going to give a fuck about fixing a minor bug or fixing framerate hitches or adding some extra polish. A happy worker will produce better material and be more motivated to troubleshoot. The trick is finding the balance between making employees content and getting out a polished, timely product. Even in high-budget long term projects this mentality will seep through. I gotta imagine that at some point the guys at Bungie saw the texture pop-in and just said "Fuck it" because they were too busy and too overworked to spend time fixing it.

The fact that the mainstream gamers don't seem to give a shit about polish only really feeds into the issue. Madden ships with a few awful glitches and quirks, but it never really affects sales at all. A publisher that dominates the market through brand strength and massive advertising campaigns (read: EA) really has no incentive to make their workers produce something better because 95% of the time a better product won't really sell much better anyway..

 

[Sho Nuff]

I used to work as a planner in a dev house in Tokyo and it sucked.

The hours sucked. The fact that we only got Sundays off sucked. And the pay, oh, now that was the ultimate suck. I was warned about this; I didn't listen. I should have.

Oh, and I had a cakewalk compared to some OTHER people. Some of the horror stories I have heard are unbelievable.

ProTip: Don't let the management coerce you into thinking you're sub-par and wouldn't get hired anywhere else. They are fucking liars. Get your resume out there NOW. I did, and I am happier man today

 

[BuG]

http://www.livejournal.com/users/joestraitiff
Here's my story from front to back, I'll let you decide who's the insane one here. I just listed several of the incidents that led up to my dismisal that I assume were the reasons. Laughingly, I don't really know the exact why -- I never got one from HR and my boss just said the last item was the "last straw." However, I skipped many colorful and fleshing out stuff that shows you the culture of EA, e.g. the Executive Producer of the project hung a neon sign in the team area that said "Open 7 days" and constantly sent out emails to the whole team saying that he'd see them over the weekend.

The guy losing his job isn't funny, neither is all the stress he apparently went through in his time there, but having his executive producer erect a neon sign saying "Open 7 days" did make me chuckle. And if that blog is a hoax, the thought of it happening still makes me laugh.

 

[Mr_Furious]

I don't claim to be an industry insider, but this statement is necessarily false. Someone without any positional advantage doesn't get paid to work. In the extreme case where someone doesn't even have the leverage of being able to refuse, he can be forced to work for free, i.e., slavery. In any paid employment situation, there must be leverage on both sides, even if it's basically just a warm body.

And it's clear from the N.Y. Times article that youth is a distinct positional advantage for EA applicants:

What you don't seem to acknowledge is the real motivation for EA choosing to increase their "fresh meat" from 10% to 75% is simply a cost cutting measure. Making games costs a lot of money so why not hire on cheap labor that can be exploited. When you are new and fresh out of college you actually don't have any thing to leverage because there is someone else's resume directly underneath yours in the pile of potential new hires willing to work. The only "advantage" for these new recruits is a paying job, a foot in the door and little more. That is the reality.

Spare me, Furious. I didn't suggest there was anything easy about how to deal with this situation. You're not exactly doing your family any favors either by allowing yourself to be worked to the bone such that you either eventually burn out and can't hold a steady, well-paying position to help support them and/or the stress of your working so hard begins to cause tension within family relationships that could boil over causing destructive rifts or worse.

Spare you? I'm willing to bet you a) don't have a family to feed and b) have never had to work the type of hours described so your "opinion" holds no water with me. It's not as black and white as you're making it out to be and there is this gray area that many "family men" live in. I'm just fortunate that my family is supportive and understanding. I sure as hell don't need a lecture from you about my life, my family or the paths that I've taken (or should've) in my life. I'm not on here crying a river about the shit I've gone through so don't be making me out as doing so.

This is one of the reasons why I can't really sympathize with many of my friends who are still in the industry and complain about pay, conditions, etc. Its a life that they chose for themselves. So if you chose it, suck it up and deal with it. If you don't want to deal with it, you CAN leave - you CHOOSE not to leave. In no interview that I went on with ANY game company did anyone mislead me into believing that I would be working a 40 hour work week. In fact it was quite the opposite with people telling me 50-60 hour work weeks was the norm and should be expected.

Who's asking for your sympathy? I am "sucking it up" and "dealing with it". You don't see me starting threads like this or posting some bullshit in some blog/livejournal or fueling the hatred for the corporate entities like EA for their unfair labor practices. I've accepted the way things are for me. My posts are only enlightening the skeptical that this is "the norm" and is not "being blown out of proportion".

 

[Tellaerin]

I'm tempted to but will refrain from questioning your personal interest in this matter. You seem to be much more emotionally charged than a neutral individual would be.

I'm an American who finds the notion of a company 'getting more out of its employees' by hiring bright-eyed kids, working them into the ground until their health and family lives suffer, and not paying them for half the time they're working to be repellent. It clearly comes as a shock to you that someone could be legitimately outraged over this without having a personal stake in the matter, which is sadly amusing, and speaks volumes about your character.

What you fail to realize is that people often want to be treated differently. If they have some quality -- in this case, youth -- that they can leverage as a bargaining advantage, then who are you to second-guess that tactic? The article makes clear that recent graduates have a better chance of being hired than older job-seekers.

I seriously doubt that any recruits desire to work under those conditions. The difference is that it's easier to convince young and relatively inexperienced recruits to accept them as the 'price' of being employed in the industry. Anyone who thinks that these recruits are 'leveraging' anyone, or indeed, that there's any sort of 'bargaining' going on whatsoever, is just deluding themselves.

Both EA and its recruits are taking full advantage of their bargaining positions; EA offers the prospect of a successful career in the industry, and recruits have youth, education, and skill. I have much more faith than you do that these recruits are capable of leveraging their skills and making rational and informed decisions about their employment. If, as I believe, all of the participants in this system are intelligent and willing, then what does it matter that you find it unconscionable?

As was reported in the article, not all of the participants are willing. Many resign themselves to this state of affairs with reluctance, resenting the unfair demands being placed upon them by management, but unwilling to let go. They want to make games, and they've been taught that this is the only way they can do that, and that things are the same everywhere, so there's no point in fighting. Eventually the stresses become too great and they burn out and leave, to be replaced by the next wave of recruits. Whether or not you accept it, that is the reality of the situation as it stands now. Yet when the employees in question state that they find the current system unconscionable, you attempt to downplay their legitimate grievances at every turn and claim that pieces like the Times article are 'blowing things out of proportion'. And then you wonder why someone would suspect you had a vested interest in seeing EA continue to exploit its workforce?

 

[Lazy8s]

kaching:

the gravity of these accusations should not be reserved for EA alone with only passing reference to what others are doing.

This article in no way implies that EA is an exception among the industry for unfair labor practices. Evidence that this publishing machine has been powering its success on the exploitation of its workforce, though, is newsworthy by itself.

 

[kaching]

Spare you? I'm willing to bet you a) don't have a family to feed and b) have never had to work the type of hours described so your "opinion" holds no water with me.

Yeah, I figured that was your estimation of me based on your condescending tone in your last post. You're wrong on both counts.

It's not as black and white as you're making it out to be and there is this gray area that many "family men" live in.

I'm not sure how you can read anything I've said as portraying the situation as merely black and white.

I sure as hell don't need a lecture from you about my life

Ditto, so I guess we're even. And I'm glad your family is supportive but I hope you can see beyond the "lecture" to the point I tried to make - that the position you put yourself into may have lucrative rewards for your family, but it is also accompanied by dangerous risks, no different from telling the corporate entity where to stick their unreasonable demands on your person.

 

[Phoenix]

What you don't seem to acknowledge is the real motivation for EA choosing to increase their "fresh meat" from 10% to 75% is simply a cost cutting measure. Making games costs a lot of money so why not hire on cheap labor that can be exploited.

Actually that's one of the dumber EA practices. Even if you've studied graphics or gaming in college - nothing can prepare you for building an actual game and novices are actually a burdon on an experienced team. It makes more sense to hire someone with experience who already knows how to do many of the things that need to be done: someone who has actually written game engine ready shaders, debugged with SoftICE or similar, dealt with RISC assembler (as you'll end up dealing with it), etc. The game industry is one of those areas where having experienced people is pure gold.

Who's asking for your sympathy? I am "sucking it up" and "dealing with it". You don't see me starting threads like this or posting some bullshit in some blog/livejournal or fueling the hatred for the corporate entities like EA for their unfair labor practices. I've accepted the way things are for me. My posts are only enlightening the skeptical that this is "the norm" and is not "being blown out of proportion".

Clearly I am neither providing sympathy for you nor did you ask for it. I'm merely pointing out for the other readers here that game developers don't deserve any sympathy. We shouldn't pity them nor feel sorry for them. Devs chose this route and if someone is there smacking them in the ass with a flaming whip, that's what they chose willingly and continue to deal with it all the time so that's their cross to bear. They can choose to leave whenever they want, they choose not to.

 

[mrklaw]

Crunches happen with most games. The key is when, and for how long. If it for the final few weeks, getting that beta bug list down, then fine - pizza and amphetamines all round (we once flew the coding team over from russia to the UK and they lived in our office for 6 weeks to finish the game. I've never seen so much pepperoni)

Thats part of the job. you are warned when you start that part of your job description might mean long hours/weekends *occasionally* - occasionally is never actually defined.

Once that overtime becomes embedded in the project plan, and expected by the managment throughout the development period is when it is unacceptable IMO.

The only acceptable crunch times are before key milestone dates - Submission, Beta, maybe a show or magazine demo. Thats it. Regular hours before and after, and keep moral up.

Its give and take at the end of the day. Do too much taking and eventually the worms will turn.

 

[Mr_Furious]

Ditto, so I guess we're even. And I'm glad your family is supportive but I hope you can see beyond the "lecture" to the point I tried to make - that the position you put yourself into may have lucrative rewards for your family, but it is also accompanied by dangerous risks, no different from telling the corporate entity where to stick their unreasonable demands on your person.

Even? When the hell did I lecture you about your life (or anyone else, for that matter)? Your "point" was to belittle me and the efforts/suffering I've gone through in my career in order to provide for my family by simply saying "you asked for it because you don't want to fight back or are too ignorant of your rights to fight back". That about wraps up what you've said so far in this thread, in a nutshell. Maybe I shouldn't have taken it personally but since you quoted me I did. Maybe I'm just cranky because it's late but if you too have a family you need to provide for and have been overworked and underpaid abusively then I'd think you'd be a little more understanding about this topic. You sure aren't sounding like it by the looks of your posts.

BTW, for anyone saying "Just quit and find another job elsewhere outside of the industry", our current economy isn't in any state to be making such suggestions so save it.

 

[DCharlie]

"we once flew the coding team over from russia to the UK and they lived in our office for 6 weeks to finish the game. I've never seen so much pepperoni"

... is that a euphamism???

where do you work Claw? I thought EA had some Russian team over .... You aren't down in Guildford by any chance?

 

[Zaptruder]

They can choose to leave whenever they want, they choose not to.

Most do eventually. But not before enthusiasm and naeivete is replaced with a good dose of cynicsm.

And that's the issue here... that EA are exploiting that enthusiasm to grind their workers up before they get smart and realise that it's bullshit. And then they do it again on a new batch of workers. and the cycle repeats...

until the stream of naieve enthusiastic able bodies slow to a trickle because everyone else becomes cognizantly aware of how abusive the industry can be, through articles like this.

 

[Phoenix]

BTW, for anyone saying "Just quit and find another job elsewhere outside of the industry", our current economy isn't in any state to be making such suggestions so save it.

I call bullshit on that one. You may no longer have the skillset the enterprise industry requires (because I seriously doubt you see much C#, .Net or Java), but to blame it on the economy is a load of shit complete and total. I hired 2 programmers over the past 3 months and have 1 more open slot but haven't found anyone who meets my requirements. The company I work for, Time Warner, is hiring huge swaths of computing talent across the board.

 

[Phoenix]

Most do eventually. But not before enthusiasm and naeivete is replaced with a good dose of cynicsm.

And that's the issue here... that EA are exploiting that enthusiasm to grind their workers up before they get smart and realise that it's bullshit. And then they do it again on a new batch of workers. and the cycle repeats...

until the stream of naieve enthusiastic able bodies slow to a trickle because everyone else becomes cognizantly aware of how abusive the industry can be, through articles like this.

I'll put it this way. I started out with a dream of writing games for a living and found my way into the industry (over a few years). I enjoyed it! I had a lot of fun working on engine code and working late trying to do even mundane things like getting 3D Studio Max's crappy ass API exporting data properly. After 3 years though, I realized that it really wasn't what I wanted anymore. Its not entirely a take-take environment. You will get out of it 'creating games for a living'.

Once you realize that you can do them on your own over a number of years and still have just as much fun though and realize that you can make a shitload more outside the industry and for the most part have a normal life (as normal as it gets in the computing space because you will still have crunch times outside the gaming arena), many decide to leave the industry altogether.

I am often disappointed, however, by the employees that leave big studios and form their own studios only to do the same slavemaster management that they were trying to leave in the first place. A decent project manager would go a long way in most of these studios.

 

[mrklaw]

"we once flew the coding team over from russia to the UK and they lived in our office for 6 weeks to finish the game. I've never seen so much pepperoni"

... is that a euphamism???

where do you work Claw? I thought EA had some Russian team over .... You aren't down in Guildford by any chance?

Nah, its a while back. I was working for Mindscape, and we were working on SU27 Flanker, a (very good) flight sim. I'm not there anymore, I work in Farnborough.

 

[Mr_Furious]

I call bullshit on that one. You may no longer have the skillset the enterprise industry requires (because I seriously doubt you see much C#, .Net or Java), but to blame it on the economy is a load of shit complete and total. I hired 2 programmers over the past 3 months and have 1 more open slot but haven't found anyone who meets my requirements. The company I work for, Time Warner, is hiring huge swaths of computing talent across the board.

I guess you didn't see the words "outside the industry". Let me know where game designers, scripters, and level designers/mappers can have a equal or better paying job outside of the industry. Hell, even artists can have it rough trying to get out of the business due to stiff competition. You sound like you have a coding background and that's one of the only areas where jobs are more plentiful outside of the video game industry. Everywhere from small businesses to large corporations require technical staff and code support for their interworkings, proprietary applications and various databases. If you are a programmer, it's much easier for you to have the colorful opinion you do.

 

[gofreak]

What I'm reading about EA lately doesn't sit well with me at all. Some of it I could tolerate, but some I couldn't. I'm looking to work in the games industry, and I know hard work is required and I'm willing to do that, but some of this just sounds insane. I know most other publishers are like this too, though.

I don't know....I think all grads looking into the games industry should be informed about this, though. Maybe gamers won't stop buying EA games, but perhaps college grads can stop submitting their resumes to EA? Apparently they're shifting their focus on recruiting new grads, so perhaps if they found this more difficult they would re-examine their HR culture. I know other publishers may well be similar, but it could be a case of making an example of one. College kids usually jump on injustices like the "Coca Cola" scandals etc., so why should it be hard to turn them against the "scandal" of EA's treatment of people just like themselves?

I promise here and now that EA won't be getting a whiff of my Resume. Who's with me?

 

[gollumsluvslave]

My only comment on this is that it's not just a game development issue - it's a software development issue, and it's as prevalent in the UK as it is in USA - projects have deadlines and more often than not these deadlines require graveyard shifts.

Like other people have said in this thread, if you don't like the job, then quit. I like my job, but have to put in the hours...

That said, there are many other industry sectors that have far more problems than software development...

 

[Kiriku]

I can understand the argument that people choosing to work with this have to suck it up, since it's their choice. I'm of the opinion though, that working for so many hours just can't be healthy...and I think there are people who really want to make games, and they see no other choice than sacrificing their health, previous lifestyles and probably social life for it. What I'm saying is, if it was possible to work under more normal circumstances, people would want to do so.

If your biggest dream in life is to make games, and someone tells you "either work for 70 hours per week or give up your dream". How much of a choice do you, in practice, have? I think it's bizarre that someone would simply have to accept the fact that you'll have to work your ass off if you want to make games (although I'm not naive enough to think it's easy to change either). If that's reality nowadays, then the industry needs a serious ctrl+alt+delete. And I can imagine other industries need it too, for that matter.

 

[FortNinety]

What I want to know is how seriously the mainstream gaming press, in particular print mags, will cover this story, if at all. Or will they let such an important topic get brushed to the side due to a fear of losing ad revenue.

 

[Nerevar]

Most do eventually. But not before enthusiasm and naeivete is replaced with a good dose of cynicsm.

And that's the issue here... that EA are exploiting that enthusiasm to grind their workers up before they get smart and realise that it's bullshit. And then they do it again on a new batch of workers. and the cycle repeats...

until the stream of naieve enthusiastic able bodies slow to a trickle because everyone else becomes cognizantly aware of how abusive the industry can be, through articles like this.

Banking companies have been doing this for years. Bring in young workers, make them work ridiculous hours doing inane work, then push them into business school after 2-3 years and bring them back as managers a few years later. The cycle repeats ad inifinium.

If your biggest dream in life is to make games, and someone tells you "either work for 70 hours per week or give up your dream". How much of a choice do you, in practice, have? I think it's bizarre that someone would simply have to accept the fact that you'll have to work your ass if you want to make games (although I'm not naive enough to think it's easy to change either). If that's reality nowadays, then the industry needs a serious ctrl+alt+delete. And I can imagine other industries need it too, for that matter.

That's pretty much how the entire software industry functions.

 

[FortNinety]

Sorry to double post the same info, but I wrote this in the other thread about EA and feel it's worth repeating...

EA stopped by my college this past week to speak with kids about job opportunities. I wont bore you with details with the presentation at the moment, but I will say this: one student actually asked: “What about the lawsuit that’s been issued against EA in regards to outstanding unpaid overtime?”

The response the EA rep gave was classic. He started by saying “This past week was pick on EA week by the press” and went on to proclaim that no one should heed reports from the internet, which led the student to reply, “I didn’t read it online, it’s been published in the papers.”

Again, at a loss for words, he rambled on about how the industry as a whole needs to change their ways and act more responsibly, but the student simply didn’t let up. The student next asked "If EA makes more money than Hollywood, why can’t it pay its workers fairly?"

Once again, the guy had no real answer other than saying that with the high wages the average employees earn, plus bonuses is more than sufficient. Then he went on about how management is well aware of this and is doing everything they can to rectify the matter. In fact, according to the guy, they just sent out a survey to all its employees to gauge how they feel about working conditions. It was promised that all answers would be kept totally anonymous and confidential. Yeah right...

Also, as it's been said before, EA's behavior isn't exactly old news. My Ubi Soft days were no bed of roses, though thankfully they weren't nearly as grueling as what's going down at EA. Though they did have their games as well.

After a long 12 hour work day to cap a hellish work week, whenever I got ready to go home and get some well deserved rest, I always got the "Goodbye loser" or "Enjoy yourself, you selfish bastard" and other snide remarks to reinforce that I wasn't a team player. The fact that I didn't fall for them is perhaps a good reason why I didn't last too long there.

Problem here is that what EA is doing much worse, since it can afford to.

 

[kaching]

Even? When the hell did I lecture you about your life (or anyone else, for that matter)? Your "point" was to belittle me and the efforts/suffering I've gone through in my career in order to provide for my family by simply saying "you asked for it because you don't want to fight back or are too ignorant of your rights to fight back". That about wraps up what you've said so far in this thread, in a nutshell.

You made assumptions about my (lack of) background and used that as grounds to attempt to educate me about the situation. It was as much a lecture as anything I aimed at you.

I want to make it clear that my intent wasn't to belittle you. But the situation isn't going to be fixed by saying that the workers are merely unwitting victims and its all the corporations' fault. I'm not saying this is what you believe specifically, I'm just saying that's been my position in this thread and probably why I'm coming across as seemingly uncaring.

 

[Exis]

Well I cannot say that this overworking does not happen in other tech fields as well.

I work for a system administrator for a software companies hosting department, I have 75 clients, when I should realisticly have 50 or less... but my mangement is driven by sales, as long as they can keep their numbers up my clients get the shaft.

I busted my ass over the last year and a half to get the Unix and Oracle skills needed to get out of this company and have found the same problem elsewhere.. .and the big boys that run their systems right, have hiring freezes or are now outsourcing that talent.

I have started to look for tech work for a company that has technology as not their primary bussiness.

-Exis

 

[Azih]

It's interesting to me that people closer to or inside the industry have a much more negative opinion on EA then the outsider commentator (Sein).

And the idea that the employees in this case have an decent amount of leverage is Bull. Shit. The kind of employees that are the most overworked are the new grads with close to no experirence. Take it from me, it's terrifying to be a fresh graduate with a resume patched together with more exaggerations and creative truth telling than actual solid work experience. And every tech position open gets a hundred applications easy, so everyone knows the new hire can be canned and replaced by somebody else with equivalent skills without a problem. You take what you get and you're glad of it. I was lucky enough that my first job has been with a mutual funds investment companies IT division that doesn't expect me to work 80 hours a week for 40 hours of pay 'just because'. I am telling you though that the six month fresh out of university job search I went through to get this job meant that I would have taken any job and taken a huge amount of crap until I had paid off my huge student debt or burned out, whichever came first.

Don't forget the kind of hell you'd put with if you know you're expendable (as most fresh grads KNOW they are as do their managers) and are struggling with a huge debt which most new hires are. It's equivalent to the kind of hell you'd put up with to feed a family. You get put on the rat race from the word go buddy.

 

[DCharlie]

"Nah, its a while back. I was working for Mindscape, and we were working on SU27 Flanker, a (very good) flight sim. I'm not there anymore, I work in Farnborough."

Handy for the airshows at least!

 

[Doth Togo]

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/11/21/b...58693200&partner=rssuserland&pagewanted=print

Ownage.

 

[Phoenix]

I guess you didn't see the words "outside the industry".

Indeed I did, and I myself am outside the industry now - out about 4 years now.

Let me know where game designers, scripters, and level designers/mappers can have a equal or better paying job outside of the industry. Hell, even artists can have it rough trying to get out of the business due to stiff competition. You sound like you have a coding background and that's one of the only areas where jobs are more plentiful outside of the video game industry. Everywhere from small businesses to large corporations require technical staff and code support for their interworkings, proprietary applications and various databases. If you are a programmer, it's much easier for you to have the colorful opinion you do.

Judging from your comments I'm sure you tried with significant energy to leave the industry and do something else. If your only skill is UnrealEd, then yeah I'm sure you're unhirable anywhere. However if you have any skill at all, perhaps you should check out the government jobs in the DC Metro. There is much jumping back and forth for people in and outside the government contracting sector (vizsim specifically).

 

[bishoptl]

Hey, I was one of those bright-eyed youngsters who drank the EA Kool-Aid willingly. Hell, before I landed a job there, I was seriously considering working as as unpaid intern - while working another job fulltime - just to get my foot in the door. I was that motivated to get in with "the premiere publisher" in the industry. The spin they give you to get in the door and the reality of the situation is far different.

Production scheduling was ludicrous, especially in the pre-production phase. It wasn't uncommon for key components of a title not to be ready by the calendar date set by QA, meaning that large-scale testing tasks would be cut-down significantly. Need to have that 82-game season mode tested, using 20 minute periods? Nope, not gonna happen - but we can test with 5 minute periods, sim a few games here and there, then extrapolate the results. Right? That'll work! And if it doesn't, well who the hell is going to play an entire season with 20 minute periods? Those nerds have no lives anyways.

Sure, you were told that you're an integral part of the team - but the monetary rewards simply weren't there. Barely disguised disgust over paying overtime? 12 hours shifts round the clock for weeks on end, because a producer wants some "comfort" that his game is getting the attention it deserves? Not-so-subtle encouragement to reschedule planned vacations because "the game needs you"? Folks falling asleep at their desk, only to be told to take a brisk walk outside to clear their heads then get back to work? All part and parcel of the grand carnival of bullshit that EA loves to shovel.

I certainly learned a great deal about software development, but at great personal cost. I alienated my family because I never saw them, lost my live-in girlfriend for the same reasons, and cut short a promising audio engineering side gig because I truly wanted to kick ass for EA. The funny thing is, I wasn't out of EA more than a couple of months before I found a business software QA job that not only doubled my EA salary, but insisted on sane hours. When you're second-guessing yourself and uncomfortable about going home at 5pm each weekday, while not working weekends, that speaks volumes about the utter nonsense that I dealt with.

I met some very cool, creative people there - most of whom have left for the same reasons - who have gone on to various other jobs, some still in the industry and some outside. When we get together, we always refer to our time at EA as time spent "in country".

As in Vietnam.

Here's hoping some fundamental changes take place.

 

[Mr_Furious]

Judging from your comments I'm sure you tried with significant energy to leave the industry and do something else. If your only skill is UnrealEd, then yeah I'm sure you're unhirable anywhere. However if you have any skill at all, perhaps you should check out the government jobs in the DC Metro. There is much jumping back and forth for people in and outside the government contracting sector (vizsim specifically).

Like I said before, there's no real job market for game designers, level designers and scripters outside of the industry but thanks for lumping them all up as an UnrealEd mapper to suit your argument. And believe it or not, game/level design is a skillset. Just because some people may have a skillset catered to a single industry doesn't mean they have no real "skills at all".

 

[Phoenix]

Like I said before, there's no real job market for game designers, level designers and scripters outside of the industry but thanks for lumping them all up as an UnrealEd mapper to suit your argument.

Dude whatever. If you're so brainwashed that the world outside of the game industry is scary and you can't be employed anywhere else then that's your problem. I've already give you one industry - visualization/simulation which could actually use many of these skills that you're talking about.

And believe it or not, game/level design is a skillset. Just because some people may have a skillset catered to a single industry doesn't mean they have no real "skills at all".

Good, and I'm sure you can read and find the fact that I didn't suggest that even slightly. Now go toil in the sugar mines. You shouldn't be posting on GAF with the schedule you have

 

[Mr_Furious]

Dude whatever. If you're so brainwashed that the world outside of the game industry is scary and you can't be employed anywhere else then that's your problem. I've already give you one industry - visualization/simulation which could actually use many of these skills that you're talking about.



Good, and I'm sure you can read and find the fact that I didn't suggest that even slightly. Now go toil in the sugar mines. You shouldn't be posting on GAF with the schedule you have

You know what, you are right. I shouldn't be wasting my time defending my livelihood with a bunch of arrogant assholes on a fucking message forum. I'm out.

 

[Sein]

What you don't seem to acknowledge is the real motivation for EA choosing to increase their "fresh meat" from 10% to 75% is simply a cost cutting measure. Making games costs a lot of money so why not hire on cheap labor that can be exploited. When you are new and fresh out of college you actually don't have any thing to leverage because there is someone else's resume directly underneath yours in the pile of potential new hires willing to work. The only "advantage" for these new recruits is a paying job, a foot in the door and little more. That is the reality.

I'm talking about advantages in the hiring process, not in the resulting job. Again, someone with absolutely nothing to offer isn't going to get a job interview, much less the job itself. The crux of any form of employment is that the worker is selling his time and skills. That constitutes leverage. It's there even if the job applicant doesn't declare, "I AM LEVERAGING MY RESOURCES."

If youth increases your chances of getting hired, guess what? That's leverage that factors in automatically when you're applying for the position.