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[finley83]

According to two separate complaints filed to a North Carolina federal court this week (as spotted by TorrentFreak), defendants Brandon Broom and Charles Vraspir are connected to cheat provider Addicted Cheats, acting as support personnel for the site. They are alleged to have used aimbotting software "with the deliberate intention of ruining the game for other players and players who watch streamers."

However, neither defendant is being sued for the actual act of cheating; rather, Epic is suing both parties for alleged copyright infringement, arguing that the defendants' cheating is "infringing Epic's copyrights by injecting unauthorized computer code into the copyright protected code".

More at the link.

Seems like a pretty questionable interpretation of copyright law in my opinion. I also fail to understand why a permanent ban wouldn't be a more suitable option for cheaters.

Spoiler

Devil's advocate: wonder if this could be a basis for suing people that hack in-game currency for lootboxes?

 

[vocab]

That's a weird reason. Id thought they would at least going for hurting the reputation/integrity of their product.

 

[Ashler]

Good luck with that.

 

[TheYanger]

I mean, Blizz already won a similar suit against the guys that made Honorbuddy for the same thing, no?

 

[Duchess O'Death]

Wow! I guess they just want to scare aimbot users off.

 

[Moosichu]

Uuurgh. This has huge implications for how you can use your software. Imagine if you could get sued for making notes on a book you own.

Making modifications to something and only sharing those modifications without any of the original copyrighted material should not be considered copyright infringement.

 

[Shifty]

Came in expecting this to be about hacking in free premium currency.

If these guys are aimbotting just ban them. This seems incredibly heavy-handed.

 

[texhnolyze]

More at the link.

Seems like a pretty questionable interpretation of copyright law in my opinion. I also fail to understand why a permanent ban wouldn't be a more suitable option for cheaters.

Devil's advocate: wonder if this could be a basis for suing people that hack in-game currency for lootboxes?

Then they're gonna sue Cheat Engine developers.

If you read article you're posting, Epic didn't sue people who hack. They're sueing the developers of the hack tool. It seems that you didn't read your own thread.

 

[jono51]

Wouldn't this be fair use? They are creating a new artform. Maybe they should play back a let's play audio track alongside the aimbot to be on the safe side.

 

[Stop It]

This is heavy handed if they're not involved in the creation of the cheats.

Remember to note that this isn't 2 random users who cheated, but people who are employed (maybe not a paid role?) by the cheat site.

However if they're just a host for user submitted cheats, then they're going after the wrong guys entirely. It is right though that developers are able to sue those people creating and hosting cheats for MP games as they're modifying proprietary and copyright protected code without permission and distribution of that code is not allowed.

 

[Lucifon]

More at the link.

Seems like a pretty questionable interpretation of copyright law in my opinion. I also fail to understand why a permanent ban wouldn't be a more suitable option for cheaters.

Spoiler

Devil's advocate: wonder if this could be a basis for suing people that hack in-game currency for lootboxes?

It's basically just scaremongering. They want to put fear into cheaters ideally in an effort to try and show that they're taking cheating seriously. It'll most likely go nowhere, but it's probably a fairly smart move from their side. They're doubling down on their anti-cheat approach in general at the moment.

 

[nubbe]

will probably be costs the defendants cant take too scare off others

 

[Buddy Mcpuddy]

Not a lawyer (but will be in 12 months).

I'm reading through their submissions now but this to me falls over on the simplest of analogies; if this was a doping scandal in sport the player would banned and the club would then be fined. In sport it doesn't always attract the operation of the law, why should it here?.

Honestly to attempt to bring this under the ambit of copyright law as an unauthorised derivative work to me seems like unwieldy mental gymnastics, especially since they're seeking both statutory and actual damages. I'm Australian so the statutory framework and the law of damages in the US are somewhat alien to me, but the loss (if an actual loss even occurred) I think falls over on being too remote to be compensable.

Anyway, I'd love to see what some of the many lawyers floating around GAF think of this one.

 

[finley83]

Then they're gonna sue Cheat Engine developers.

If you read article you're posting, Epic didn't sue people who hack. They're sueing the developers of the hack tool. It seems that you didn't read your own thread.

I read the article, thanks. My concern is that if a legal precedent is set that means injecting cheats into games is copyright infringement, then technically the act of using Cheat Engine becomes copyright infringement. Per Wikipedia:

In legal systems based on common law, a precedent, or authority, is a principle or rule established in a previous legal case that is either binding on or persuasive for a court or other tribunal when deciding subsequent cases with similar issues or facts.

Even if end users aren't targeted now, the outcome of the case could set a precedent that shuts down the use of Cheat Engine and other memory-modifying applications.

 

[Burning Justice]

As much as I hate online cheaters... I really hope Epic loses this suit.

 

[StrikeFirst117]

If they have a problem with cheaters it would be better to just permanently ban anyone who is cheating rather than taking a suit up with some of them.
I suppose it might scare off other potential cheaters by setting this example though.

 

[texhnolyze]

I read the article, thanks. My concern is that if a legal precedent is set that means injecting cheats into games is copyright infringement, then technically the act of using Cheat Engine becomes copyright infringement. Per Wikipedia:

Even if end users aren't targeted now, the outcome of the case could set a precedent that shuts down the use of Cheat Engine and other memory-modifying applications.

Right, after re-reading your OP I get your point now. I thought you were mainly talking about the defendants being end-users.

I think this won't end well for Epic.

 

[Tacitus_]

Ugh, the same bullshit excuse Blizz used to sue the bot maker.

 

[SteveO409]

Wow they're already going after this kind of stuff that soon....

 

[ASaiyan]

The relevant case law suggests this should be thrown out pretty quickly, unless a new precedent has been established that I'm unaware of.

 

[Cuningas de Häme]

GOOD. The sooner cheat makers understand that it is dangerous for them to make the cheats the better. Disgusting creatures that profit from the misery of players.

I would love it if cheaters could be sued. If you use cheats in a MP game I hope only the worst for you.

 

[Ascheroth]

Oh fuck off Epic. This would have really awful implications for modding and cheating (which is totally fine in SP scenarios). Fortunately this will never go through anyway.
Just permaban cheaters in MP games.

 

[Not Drake]

This is comparable to using nuclear weapons on rats nest. Dumb.

 

[Mr_Appleby]

Not a lawyer (but will be in 12 months).

I'm reading through their submissions now but this to me falls over on the simplest of analogies; if this was a doping scandal in sport the player would banned and the club would then be fined. In sport it doesn't always attract the operation of the law, why should it here?.

Not a lawyer at all but in sport you generally have regulatory bodies that set the standards and enforce the bans and mediate the disputes, and they have a legal framework to operate in. The Essendon saga definitely attracted the operation of the law.

 

[Bustanen]

Uninstalling Fortnite now. Can't stand copyright nazis.

 

[Jacksinthe]

Epic isn't doing this to win, they are doing this to tie them up in litigation, forcing the expenditure of finances these people have as a "fuck you".

See the whole Alex Mauer thing. She knows she couldn't get anywhere with it but kept on keeping on to tie up Imagos in spending money.

This happens a lot, essentially beating someone into submission.

 

[EVIL]

This sounds like a bad idea.. whats next? suing modders?

 

[SeanTSC]

However, neither defendant is being sued for the actual act of cheating; rather, Epic is suing both parties for alleged copyright infringement, arguing that the defendants' cheating is "infringing Epic's copyrights by injecting unauthorized computer code into the copyright protected code".

That's extremely dubious and has nasty implications. As much as cheating in online MP needs to be curbed, this is the wrong way to go about it and I hope it fails pretty hard. That's some heavy handed overreach and opens up a door we don't want opened.

 

[SeppOCE]

Came in expecting this to be about hacking in free premium currency.

If these guys are aimbotting just ban them. This seems incredibly heavy-handed.

Seems like theyre using the overwatch approach where the best anti cheat is fear.

 

[Buddy Mcpuddy]

Not a lawyer at all but in sport you generally have regulatory bodies that set the standards and enforce the bans and mediate the disputes, and they have a legal framework to operate in. The Essendon saga definitely attracted the operation of the law.

Thats my point, in the Essendon drug scandal it started with an AFL tribunal, an appeal, the Court of Arbitration for Sport and then I think a mostly failed attempt to appeal to the Federal Supreme Court of Switzerland.If you look at the penalties levelled at the players they were bans, with fines being levelled at the club.

This is precisely why in the present case they've had to go through this ridiculous attempt at an unauthorised derivative work, there are no clubs beholden to any administrative or regulatory bodies, these are people acting alone.

 

[Trup1aya]

More at the link.

Seems like a pretty questionable interpretation of copyright law in my opinion. I also fail to understand why a permanent ban wouldn't be a more suitable option for cheaters.

Spoiler

Devil's advocate: wonder if this could be a basis for suing people that hack in-game currency for lootboxes?

How would a permanent ban help, if the damage they are doing is by supporting others who want to cheat?

Suing them for ruining the experience being sold seems like a great way to handle it.

It's not the simple injection of code that is the infringement. It's the profiting off of the experience that Epic developed while simultaneously devaluing the experience Epic is providing.

I really don't see the negative implications, as the cruxt of their argument is that users agree not to inject code into the game to harm the experience of others, and these guys are violating that agreement for personal gain at the expense of Epic.

 

[Bennicus]

If injecting code counted as copyright infringement, this wouldn't just affect Cheat Engine but also various methods of debugging, profiling, antivirus software etc etc. It just doesn't seem realistic.

 

[Tacitus_]

How would a permanent ban help, if the damage they are doing is by supporting others who want to cheat?

Suing them for ruining the experience being sold seems like a great way to handle it.

Getting sued for making a program that modifies a different program running on your computer is not "a great way" to handle it. It's an abuse of copyright law.

 

[Trup1aya]

Getting sued for making a program that modifies a different program running on your computer is not "a great way" to handle it. It's an abuse of copyright law.

They arent just modifying the program running on their computer.

They are modifying and negatively impacting the experience of 99 other players everytime they do it, and the experience of anyone watching the game stream. The experience is part of what what Epic is selling. And it is part of what they have a copyright on.

The cheat software is inarguably damaging the value of Epic's product. An argument that wouldn't stand if the defendants were simply injecting code that only impacted their local experience. Epic has every right to protect the value of their IP. That's exactly why copyright law exists.

Edit: just to reiterate: Epic doesn't appear to be targeting the simple injection of code. They are targeting the injection with the purpose of cheating- gaining an unfair advantage over others and ruining the integrity of the multiplayer experience.

 

[elyetis]

This sounds like a bad idea.. whats next? suing modders?

I hate cheaters in online games, but yeah that was also my first reaction.

 

[Aztechnology]

More at the link.

Seems like a pretty questionable interpretation of copyright law in my opinion. I also fail to understand why a permanent ban wouldn't be a more suitable option for cheaters.

Spoiler

Devil's advocate: wonder if this could be a basis for suing people that hack in-game currency for lootboxes?

According to another article, I read on the matter, they've been permanently banned multiple times and keep making accounts.

 

[Taliban Stan]

However, neither defendant is being sued for the actual act of cheating; rather, Epic is suing both parties for alleged copyright infringement, arguing that the defendants' cheating is "infringing Epic's copyrights by injecting unauthorized computer code into the copyright protected code".

But that has nothing to do with the right to copy/distribute something...

Is it even modifying the code or just injecting a software layer in between that's doing something? This could set precedent for people making mods, plugins, and basically anything for use with a software program but not made by the people who make the original software.

 

[Buddy Mcpuddy]

The cheat software is inarguably damaging the value of Epic's product. An argument that wouldn't stand if the defendants were simply injecting code that only impacted their local experience. Epic has every right to protect the value of their IP. That's exactly why copyright law exists.

Ehhh.

It's more analogous to 'bringing a sport into disrepute' that does not grant access to damages it prevents access to the sport. I think for lack of other options the injunctive relief sought makes certain amount of sense, in not only preventing them from participating any further but the cessation of the distribution or development of the cheating tools.

I'm not familiar with the Act, but insofar as actual damages are concerned, if they're assessed in a similar fashion to Australia it seems like a really big stretch, they have to draw the line between the impaired experience of the players and (other than the 'loss of goodwill') and the lost sales and lost profits.

 

[shimon]

Suing,really? I hope they lose.

 

[DontBeThatGuy]

Trumpian tactics. Sue into submission, regardless of it's frivolousness.

 

[Venfayth]

This is one of the least informative articles on this topic I have read.

Blizzard won a lawsuit against cheat makers using copyrights in the past. https://www.polygon.com/2017/4/4/15177818/overwatch-cheat-maker-sued-loses-judgment

Furthermore these people are being sued because they provided technical information to the cheat makers in order to assist them develop the cheats.

https://kotaku.com/epic-is-suing-two-alleged-fortnite-cheaters-1819403143/amp

Tangential note: Creating and distributing software that helps users break an online games TOS is already illegal in South Korea.

https://www.gamasutra.com/view/news...ters_with_law_targeting_illicit_game_mods.php

Edit: the Polygon article also has links to the actual legal documents

https://www.polygon.com/platform/amp/2017/10/12/16464750/epic-games-fortnite-cheater-lawsuit

 

[Lashley]

Hopefully they lose, or this will set a bad precedent.

 

[Venom.]

They have to stop cheating by whatever legal method offers the best chance of success.

 

[KOHIPEET]

So they're after people who alter their (EPIC's) game's code so they can sell cheat engines for money and allow weak players to ruin the game for the majority of the player-base right? Am I interpreting this correctly, because if so, the hand of law should come down as hard on them (alleged cheaters) as possible.

 

[Bluth54]

Blizzard won a lawsuit against cheat makers using copyrights in the past. https://www.polygon.com/2017/4/4/15177818/overwatch-cheat-maker-sued-loses-judgment

Blizzard didn't win that case by actually winning in court, they won it because the cheat developer didn't defend themselves.

 

[Biscotti]

They are essentially suing the cheater for making money off of their game which is why its only these two currently being sued, there were multiple free aimbots for fortnight BR the day it came out. This is why Bethesda made the creation club for their products.

 

[ArkhamFantasy]

My irritation for cheaters is being fought by my lack of empathy for overly agressive rich people, can they both lose?

 

[FLEABttn]

Despite the appeal, Blizzard ultimately won against the maker of Glider for violation of the DMCA. Epic's got a decent shot at winning I'd think.

 

[Biscotti]

My irritation for cheaters is being fought by my lack of empathy for overly agressive rich people, can they both lose?

The people selling the cheats are probably well off.

 

[Bluth54]

They are essentially suing the cheater for making money off of their game which is why its only these two currently being sued, there were multiple free aimbots for fortnight BR the day it came out. This is why Bethesda made the creation club for their products.

I watched a video on this and it seems like the main legal argument is that the cheat makers are illegally modifying code that's protected under copyright (the code for Fortnite) and selling those modifications.