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[stargateheaven]

The cheats modify the games code.

They are breaking the terms and conditions.

But suing? it seems alot. but i guess they want to set a precedent.

 

[Biscotti]

I watched a video on this and it seems like the main legal argument is that the cheat makers are illegally modifying code that's protected under copyright (the code for Fortnite) and selling those modifications.

Yes, that would make any video game modification that is paid technically copyright infringement.

 

[Biscotti]

The cheats modify the games code.

They are breaking the terms and conditions.

But suing? it seems alot. but i guess they want to set a precedent.

It's because they are making a profit (the cheaters).

 

[_Ryo_]

If they win this it could set a really dangerous precedent. I mean, by their interpretation mods for any game would not be allowed and pubs could sue creators for making them. Hell, for even editing an .ini, or a .cfg file to try to increase fps and display resolution could be considered as "infringing copyrights by injecting unauthorized computer code into the copyright protected code"

It also sets a dangerous precedent as to what game owners are allowed to do with their legally obtained product.

Cheaters who cheat online and affect the game for others playing online should definitely be punished, this is not the correct way to go about it. And for that reason I sincerely hope Epic loses this case.

 

[The ๖ۜBronx]

The cheats modify the games code.
They are breaking the terms and conditions.
But suing? it seems alot. but i guess they want to set a precedent.

If they win this it could set a really dangerous precedent. I mean, by their interpretation mods for any game would not be allowed and pubs could sue creators for making them. Hell, for even editing an .ini, or a .cfg file to try to increase fps and display resolution could be considered as "infringing copyrights by injecting unauthorized computer code into the copyright protected code"

It also sets a dangerous precedent as to what game owners are allowed to do with their legally obtained product.

This is hardly anything new. Creators have been suing hack developers under the DMCA for awhile now. Just look up Nexon vs. Gamersoul. Speaking from experience the line appears to be making a profit from it as to whether you're going to face potential legal action or not.

 

[Bluth54]

Yes, that would make any video game modification that is paid technically copyright infringement.

I imagine that even non paid mods infringe on the copyright that the game publisher holds on the game code but most let it slide.

 

[test_account]

I read the article, thanks. My concern is that if a legal precedent is set that means injecting cheats into games is copyright infringement, then technically the act of using Cheat Engine becomes copyright infringement. Per Wikipedia:

Even if end users aren't targeted now, the outcome of the case could set a precedent that shuts down the use of Cheat Engine and other memory-modifying applications.

I would add to the OP that this is cheats that are being sold. That makes the case quite different. Seems that several of people arent aware of this and think its about two guys simply using a cheat in a game. Thats not the case here.

Modding and cheating have been around for ages, i dont think this case with Epic will suddently change everything around.

 

[The ๖ۜBronx]

I read the article, thanks. My concern is that if a legal precedent is set that means injecting cheats into games is copyright infringement, then technically the act of using Cheat Engine becomes copyright infringement. Per Wikipedia:

Dark_Byte had to close down the MapleStory section of CEF because of pressure from Nexon, this really is anything but new.

 

[FLEABttn]

This is hardly anything new. Creators have been suing hack developers under the DMCA for awhile now. Just look up Nexon vs. Gamersoul.

And MDY Industries, LLC v. Blizzard before that.

The precedent that everyone is worried about has already been set (nearly a decade ago at that). The implications that everyone is worried wrt mods has gone unfelt.

 

[Widge]

It also sets a dangerous precedent as to what game owners are allowed to do with their legally obtained product.

There is that, but by buying and agreeing to T&C's, you are agreeing to those terms. It's been a situation of everyone treating the blind eye world as a given to a bit of a surprise when companies start to enforce the terms that you sign up to.

^^^

and the above is where the concern is. Whenever you talk games on PC, mods usually follows hand in hand. It's seen as an inherent benefit of the platform, except now the people who make the games (and are setting the terms) are edging around saying "erm, no".

 

[The ๖ۜBronx]

And MDY Industries, LLC v. Blizzard before that.

The precedent that everyone is worried about has already been set (nearly a decade ago at that). The implications that everyone is worried wrt mods has gone unfelt.

Pretty much. Some peoples knowledge is severely outdated in this area judging by a number of the replies here.

 

[Woo-Fu]

I think filing suit is a great way to put people on notice and raise awareness at the same time, regardless of how viable your case ultimately is.

I don't think anybody should be making money off of cheats for online games and applaud Epic for being proactive in this case.

 

[ElfArmy177]

Uninstalling Fortnite now. Can't stand copyright nazis.

Lol ok

I welcome this

 

[Sami+]

The cheats modify the games code.

They are breaking the terms and conditions.

But suing? it seems alot. but i guess they want to set a precedent.

Terms and conditions =! Federal law

At worst they should be banning them.

 

[Croatoan]

Heh, maybe we could make cheats illegal to sell in the US. Seems like a top priority...


I am actually for this. Sue the shit out of people that sell cheats. Ban the ones that distribute for free and use them.

 

[Audioboxer]

As much as I hate online cheaters... I really hope Epic loses this suit.

This. Or enjoy Activision, Blizzard, EA, MS, Ubisoft and others all pissing their pants to shutdown all cheats on the PC.

It would actually be hilarious to see this become a reality before we even get some decent regulation around loot box drop rates being necessary to display.

 

[Htown]

slightly misleading title

they're suing cheat providers, not random cheaters

they make money selling cheats to players

 

[Ouroboros]

The Red Game Genie guy will be these boys' lawyer.

 

[AuthenticM]

This is one of these threads where people will post after only reading the thread title.

 

[DigitalScrap]

they make money selling cheats to players

This is the thing it seems some are ignoring - they are profiting from modifying code that they do not have the rights to do so. That is where the problem lies. This isn't about the act of cheating, it is about illegally selling modified code that they do not own.

 

[Kyzer]

Uuurgh. This has huge implications for how you can use your software. Imagine if you could get sued for making notes on a book you own.

Making modifications to something and only sharing those modifications without any of the original copyrighted material should not be considered copyright infringement.

That's not the same thing at all.

Wouldn't this be fair use? They are creating a new artform. Maybe they should play back a let's play audio track alongside the aimbot to be on the safe side.

Lol

 

[Inkvoterad]

GOOD. The sooner cheat makers understand that it is dangerous for them to make the cheats the better. Disgusting creatures that profit from the misery of players.

I would love it if cheaters could be sued. If you use cheats in a MP game I hope only the worst for you.

Lol what is this? You got some severe fucking issues to feel such strong anger towards other humans for something so inherently meaningless. They're cheating on a digital platform, not hurting people.

 

[SomedayTheFire]

It's always funny whenever there's a thread about something bad happening, people post shit thinking it's the first time it's ever happened. This isn't the first instance of this. It won't be the last, and the world will keep on spinning.

 

[Blam]

Seriously Epic? Come on now don't sue someone for cheating just ban them. Sure they made the tool but so have 100s of others.

This isn't a good way of solving anything and I'm sure they are fearmongering because they know their AC isn't that great.

Epic please just drop or lose the suit I pray of you.

To the people hoping the worst to cheaters. Come on people it's a game get your head back into reality.

 

[Audioboxer]

slightly misleading title

they're suing cheat providers, not random cheaters

they make money selling cheats to players

This is one of these threads where people will post after only reading the thread title.

It's still interesting to see how that unfolds

http://www.fmrte.com

A real time editor for Football Manager that charges a few £ for a license.

 

[Blam]

This is the thing it seems some are ignoring - they are profiting from modifying code that they do not have the rights to do so. That is where the problem lies. This isn't about the act of cheating, it is about illegally selling modified code that they do not own.

This is factually wrong. Most if not all especially the devs in question do not sell any code that isn't there's sure they modify it but it's not using the game code. It's injecting into the game. The code they sell is their code. Not Epics.

 

[SomedayTheFire]

It's still interesting to see how that unfolds

http://www.fmrte.com

A real time editor for Football Manager that charges a few £ for a license.

Not quite the same. FMRTE doesn't infringe anything that's copyrighted. Just a database (at least I think it's a db, was the last time I looked) that's easily edited, inside SI programs and outside.

 

[Durante]

As much as I hate online cheaters... I really hope Epic loses this suit.

Yeah. Ban cheaters, sue companies selling cheats for using your trademarks or things like that, that's all fine.

But sorry, cheating isn't copyright infringement. That's bullshit.

 

[decoyplatypus]

And MDY Industries, LLC v. Blizzard before that.

The precedent that everyone is worried about has already been set (nearly a decade ago at that). The implications that everyone is worried wrt mods has gone unfelt.

This.

 

[Hero_of_the_Day]

Good. They aren't being sued for being cheaters. They are going after them because they sell cheats to online games. They are profiting off of sending hundreds, if not thousands, of ass holes out into the online world to ruin games for others. Fuck them.

sue companies selling cheats...

That is exactly what is actually happening here.

 

[Audioboxer]

Not quite the same. FMRTE doesn't infringe anything that's copyrighted. Just a database that's easily edited, inside SI programs and outside.

I would need to read the court documents in more depth but aren't most real time cheats memory editors? That's what FMRTE is. Each time Football Manager is patched it usually needs an update.

This is quite an open ended interpretation

However, neither defendant is being sued for the actual act of cheating; rather, Epic is suing both parties for alleged copyright infringement, arguing that the defendants' cheating is "infringing Epic's copyrights by injecting unauthorized computer code into the copyright protected code".

Most memory editors hook into/inject into the running application. That's how they manage to edit or change values that the gamer shouldn't be able to, in real time.

This doesn't seem to be a lawsuit anyone should want to be cheering on Epic to win, but the past few weeks on gaming GAF have taught me to expect anything.

 

[tiredheadcrab]

I'd like to see how this would turn out.

 

[Archtreyz]

I hope Epic wins. Companies that sell cheats are awful for everyone.

 

[Crossing Eden]

"I didn't read the OP." -The thread.

However, neither defendant is being sued for the actual act of cheating; rather, Epic is suing both parties for alleged copyright infringement, arguing that the defendants' cheating is "infringing Epic's copyrights by injecting unauthorized computer code into the copyright protected code".

"Defendant is creating unauthorized derivative works of Fortnite by modifying the game code and, thus, materially altering the game that the code creates and the experience of those who play it." This, Epic argues, is in violation of Fortnite's End User License Agreement and the Digital Millennium Copyright Act.

Don't press "Accept" if you don't also want to deal with the consequences.

 

[benzopil]

Yeah. Ban cheaters, sue companies selling cheats for using your trademarks or things like that, that's all fine.

But sorry, cheating isn't copyright infringement. That's bullshit.

Well that's exactly what they are doing lol

 

[patchday]

Yeah aimbotters... I hope Epic wins and also finds some kinda way to put them in Jail.

Sorry since Unreal Tournament I've hated aimbot users and even went so far to just play console FPS to avoid them (where everyone is just bad)

 

[Audioboxer]

I hope Epic wins. Companies that sell cheats are awful for everyone.

This

However, neither defendant is being sued for the actual act of cheating; rather, Epic is suing both parties for alleged copyright infringement, arguing that the defendants' cheating is "infringing Epic's copyrights by injecting unauthorized computer code into the copyright protected code".

Would apply to any cheat that injects code, free or paid. This lawsuit winning on copyright infringement is not good for any gamer on the PC.

As I said above I don't know what I expected entering a topic like this and being surprised at a defence force wanting copyright infringement to be even more abusive that it can already be. I guess the loot box cheating topic is going to ruffle some feathers. Or any game where cheats can bypass excessive monetization. Apparently some think that is now literal piracy.

I satirised in the other topic about cheats but it looks like cheatgate is now upon us to coincide with lootboxgate. Pick your "side".

 

[jim2point0]

"I didn't read the OP." -The thread.

Pretty much. People just want to get in their quick headline reactions I guess.

And tell me. How would banning people in a free game do anything at all when they can just create another free account to keep playing?

We really need better ways to detect\prevent cheating in multiplayer games. I'm not sure if suing them for copyright infringement is the right way to go.

 

[decoyplatypus]

To be clear, I'm not a huge fan MDY v. Blizzard, but just so we're all on the same page with respect to the one of the bigger cases in this area, MDY was a suit involving the vendors of a bot program ("Glider") for WoW. The Court of Appeals for the 9th Circuit (not controlling over a NC district court, but highly influential) initially held that use of the bot was not copyright infringement. Their reasoning went something like this:

1. Playing software on your computer makes a "copy" of the software in your RAM for copyright purposes (this is based in part on some unfortunate precedent)
2. Therefore, in order to evade copyright liability, you need to be an owner or a licensee of the software.
3. WoW players are licensees.
4. Some license terms are conditions (limiting the scope of the license). Other license terms are mere covenants, and violating them does not implicate copyright.
5. The anti-bot and prohibition on third-party software provisions in WoW's Terms of Use are mere covenants.
6. Glider use does not violate a condition in WoW's terms of use.
7. Even where a user violates a condition, the user is not automatically a copyright infringer. The breach of the condition must have some nexus to the copyright holders' statutory rights (e.g., if I license you to copy one and only one copy of my book, with the caveat that you cannot read the last ten pages, and you make the copy but also read the last 10 pages, I can sue you for breach of contract but not copyright infringement because reading does not implicate one of my exclusive rights).
8. Glider use does not implicate any of Blizzard's statutory rights.

BUT then the court considered whether circumventing WoW's anti-cheating program (which blocked server access to those using bots) violated the DMCA.

9. DMCA § 1201(a) prohibits the circumvention of any technological measure that effectively controls access to a protected work *whether or not the circumvention actually involves or leads to copyright infringement* (this is a controversial reading of the DMCA--a badly drafted statute--and one of the main reasons the DMCA is bad)
10. DMCA § 1201(a)(2) prohibits trafficking in technologies that are intended to circumvent technological measures that effectively control access to a protected work.
11. WoW's anti-cheating program effectively controls access to WoW's dynamic, non-literal elements (i.e. the actual game experience)
12. MDY therefore violated section 1201(a)(2) by marketing and selling a program designed to circumvent a device that effectively controlled access to a protected work.

 

[Chobel]

Jesus! That sounds a bit extreme.

 

[SomedayTheFire]

I would need to read the court documents in more depth but aren't most real time cheats memory editors? That's what FMRTE is. Each time Football Manager is patched it usually needs an update.

This is quite an open ended interpretation



Most memory editors hook into/inject into the running application. That's how they manage to edit or change values that the gamer shouldn't be able to, in real time.

This doesn't seem to be a lawsuit anyone should want to be cheering on Epic to win, but the past few weeks on gaming GAF have taught me to expect anything.

Unsure maybe it has changed. I haven't looked at FMRTE in years. SI sell their own real time editor now, so FMRTE is pointless.

 

[AmyS]

Good luck, lol.

 

[Audioboxer]

Unsure maybe it has changed. I haven't looked at FMRTE in years. SI sell their own real time editor now, so FMRTE is pointless.

FMRTE still has more features than SIs. The issue with this lawsuit would be crippling consumer choice as essentially SI could say only our editor is allowed. Free or paid. Anyone apart from us is infringing on copyright.

It's always been a memory editor, when you load it up you have to click load for it to inject itself into the games memory. Bugs and issues along the years have been things leading to crashes or freezes due to attempts at editing memory addresses in real time.

 

[Snoopycat]

Good. I hope Epic drives those 2 scumbags straight into bankruptcy. It's about time cheaters who deliberately go out of their way to ruin online games faced some real world consequences for their actions instead of the usual wrist slaps.

 

[The ๖ۜBronx]

Most memory editors hook into/inject into the running application. That's how they manage to edit or change values that the gamer shouldn't be able to, in real time. This doesn't seem to be a lawsuit anyone should want to be cheering on Epic to win, but the past few weeks on gaming GAF have taught me to expect anything.

You're a decade too late, this has been happening for awhile for cheat providers selling cheats that alter the game through memory editing. It hasn't had an extraneous repercussions outside of the hacking community. The experience over those past number of years has highlighted that pressure can be applied on everyone but it's rare for any legal action to bear any fruit outside of those pursuing or turning a profit.

 

[Kaako]

Epic is suing them because they're making profit off the cheats/copyright infringement it seems.

 

[Audioboxer]

You're a decade too late, this has been happening for awhile for cheat providers selling cheats that alter the game through memory editing. It hasn't had an extraneous repercussions outside of the hacking community.

I know they do, I've used plenty of cheats that edit memory for years. The issue with this lawsuit as far as I can see is paid for cheats isn't explicitly stated. The cheats in question for this game may well be paid, but the lawsuit appears to claim anything injecting/editing memory in real time is copyright infringement.

What I implied was I was quite taken a back people on a hardcore gaming forum would sign off on that as a necessity or possible plus. So I satirised I feel it's residual angst people feel from topics about cheats helping skirt around loot box monetization plans. Which soon enough you'll be able to say for goodness knows how many SP games that try to encourage PC gamers to spend to progress quicker. If people want to buy cheats on the PC that's up to them, but there usually still is a good thriving free cheat scene for big games. Shadow of War cheats are free. If you ignore that paid site trying to sell you them.

 

[The ๖ۜBronx]

I know they do, I've used plenty of cheats that edit memory for years. The issue with this lawsuit as far as I can see is paid for cheats isn't explicitly stated. The cheats in question for this game may well be paid, but the lawsuit appears to claim anything injecting/editing memory in real time is copyright infringement.

Yeh, which has been the case numerous times in the past. Anyone paying attention can see that pressure can be applied (often successfully) to any cheat creator but it's unlikely to bear fruit in the courts unless they're turning (or pursuing) a profit.

 

[Audioboxer]

Yeh, which has been the case numerous times in the past. Anyone paying attention can see that pressure can be applied (often successfully) to any cheat creator but it's unlikely to bear fruit in the courts unless they're turning (or pursuing) a profit.

Well if there have been other lawsuits around this I do need to say sorry I wasn't aware. I skimmed some people posting things above, but that was just reading today. I had no historic knowledge of lawsuits around cheats. Only that bans have been a well known longterm consequence of cheating in MP, to which the consumer has no grounding to stand on to request a refund/unbanning. My feelings still stand about anyone now calling cheating piracy or anyone who is hoping Epic manage to win copyright claims here. Why would any gamer want that?

That would be like wishing Sony won their emulation court case against Bleemcast way back in the day. I'm sure Atlus would have loved that. Gamers cheering that on for the nuking of all things emulation? Cmon. That's just madness. As is hoping heavy handed legal strikes against cheats and the ability to edit memory/modify game code for many reasons. No one is asking for unchallenged cheating in MP. Epic should ban all cheaters, but the lawsuit they're pursuing even if it's symbolic is soo heavy handed its madness.

 

[Plumpbiscuit]

If Epic win wouldn't this mean using cheats to bypass lootbox currency also become illegal?