Support NeoGAF

[pa22word]

Alternately, Americans could drop 9/11 as a sacred holiday

3k people died

I know empathy is a little obscure on gaf sometimes, but please get the fuck over yourself.

I'll never forget the moment my teacher pulled me out of the classroom balling her eyes out because she couldn't stand us seeing what had happened. It's an important event in US and world history. Posts like this are just crass in a way that makes me want to throw up. What the fuck is wrong with you? Is this somehow a match to see how much someone has suffered or something?

 

[G.ZZZ]

The way i understand the story is that both Abraham and his son, peace upon them, knew that God will save them and it was a demonstration of the total trust in God (tawwakul).
It's why the son of Abraham is so okay with the situation in the quranic narrative.

There is nothing wrong in asking and finding thing unsatisfying. For al-Ghazali, it's actually the path to true faith

Reading things like this make me thinks we still are far , far away from an Islamic modernization. Ibn Rush still too controversial even in 2016 i guess.

 

[Slightly Live]

3k people died

I know empathy is a little obscure on gaf sometimes, but please get the fuck over yourself.

I'll never forget the moment my teacher pulled me out of the classroom balling her eyes out because she couldn't stand us seeing what had happened. It's an important event in US and world history. Posts like this are just crass in a way that makes me want to throw up. What the fuck is wrong with you? Is this somehow a match to see how much someone has suffered or something?

No one is trying to belittle what happened. Things change and evolve. You can't expect the rest of the world to observe perpetual special allowances for your country's tragedies.

 

[Newtype-001]

👌👌👌

 

[pa22word]

No one is trying to belittle what happened. Things change and evolve. You can't expect the rest of the world to observe perpetual special allowances for your country's tragedies.

Please point out to me where I was objecting to the holiday falling on 9/11,or people celebrating it on that date.

The point that Americans should just "get over" 9/11 is fucking asinine, regardless of how it is posited. It was a horrific tragedy. One that specifically shaped world history after it, for better or worse. Handwaving it in such a way as Cyan did is just crass. It's intentionally incendiary in such a way as random flamebait shitspewing I'd associate with 4chan. To the point the only difference between me being banned for that post and him not is he has a red name.

 

[ThLunarian]

No one is trying to belittle what happened. Things change and evolve. You can't expect the rest of the world to observe perpetual special allowances for your country's tragedies.

This is a poor argument. The holiday is based on something that allegedly happened thousands of years ago. The WTC fell fifteen years ago. Also, this isn't about the rest of the world. It's about the dilemma facing Muslims in the United States.

 

[jm89]

I will celebrate like i do every year. The world won't stop for every single tragedy that has happened in the past.

If you have a problem with it go shout at a wall.

 

[Messofanego]

dead

 

[Nikodemos]

i also find it amusing that not one of the 1.6 billion muslims actually question Ibrahim's story. so you get a dream in which god tells you to sacrifice your son and you actually go and do it. are you serious? lol. im sure this is blasphemy and im going to hell for this but ive always wanted to get that off my chest.

Well the tale itself is pretty much meaningless today, something a lot of people fail to (or don't want to) realise.
It was only relevant back when it appeared. In essence (and similarly to a lot of Old Testament stuff) it's an old-ass Jewish religious folktale/parable from the tail end of the polytheist period. It was designed to contrast the cult of YHWH to the other cults, several of which did very much ask of their adherents that they occassionally chop up a kid (human, not goat) as sacrifice.

 

[Mister_Bubbles]

im sure this is blasphemy and im going to hell for this but ive always wanted to get that off my chest.

I think you'll be alright

 

[Slightly Live]

Please point out to me where I was objecting to the holiday falling on 9/11,or people celebrating it on that date.

The point that Americans should just "get over" 9/11 is fucking asinine, regardless of how it is posited. It was a horrific tragedy. One that specifically shaped world history after it, for better or worse. Handwaving it in such a way as Cyan did is just crass. It's intentionally incendiary in such a way as random flamebait shitspewing I'd associate with 4chan. To the point the only difference between me being banned for that post and him not is he has a red name.

Who said anyone should "get over" it? You can respect a tragic event without forcing others into doing the same or being mad that folks choose to remember it in a way you don't agree with.

Cyan didn't handwave anything. Events like 9/11 shouldn't be treated like a ghoulish holiday. It was terrible, but so? A lot worse has happened since then. Other tragic events. Other murders. Genocide.

The fact that some people play up 9/11 to the scale of other bigger tragedies is odd. The Korean and Vietnam war were terrible. The two world wars were worse? Afghanistan/Irag? Bosnia? Rwanda? 9/11 was a terrible event but with a thankfully small number of deaths.

9/11 Didn't change the world. America's response to it did. The death toll from the result of military action excused by those events is how many times more death? How many innocents folks have been caught up in the crossfire in the middle east since 9/11?

The fact is a bunch of Muslims are afraid for their own safety here because of a co-incidence. Because of idiots using the tragedy of others to push a political agenda without the regard of the safety of others.

This is a poor argument. The holiday is based on something that allegedly happened thousands of years ago. The WTC fell fifteen years ago. Also, this isn't about the rest of the world. It's about the dilemma facing Muslims in the United States.

It is about the rest of the world. There's a few billion Muslim folks that respect this particular holiday, and have done so, since before the US existed. Muslims in America should not, in any way shape of form, fear harm from celebrating it. But they will if it falls on 11th of September - because they know they aren't safe.

 

[Corpsepyre]

I would get all crazy as a kid watching the goats get slaughtered, and the sight of blood would get me all excited, but as a grown adult, I just can't help but feel bad. The streets here are tainted with blood and the smell is unbearable. It's good that most middle-class folk here have started just putting in money to various shops that specialize in distribution of meat instead of getting their own animals for the slaughter, but the city's still a blood-splattered mess on those 3 days.

 

[deadlast]

Well the tale itself is pretty much meaningless today, something a lot of people fail to (or don't want to) realise.
It was only relevant back when it appeared. In essence (and similarly to a lot of Old Testament stuff) it's an old-ass Jewish religious folktale/parable from the tail end of the polytheist period. It was designed to contrast the cult of YHWH to the other cults, several of which did very much ask of their adherents that they occassionally chop up a kid (human, not goat) as sacrifice.

I have kids. By the time Ab got to that mountain he was probably ready to kill his kid from all the "are we there yet?" God saved that little shit's life.
This is one of the dumbest stories. Noah and Mose are ridiculous too. They're lucky Poseidon let them live.

 

[electroshockwave]

It's understood as being a proof of the Mercy of God actually, that He is not a God who will ask us to kill our kids for Him.

It's seem pretty normal to think so, but in the time of Abraham, peace upon him, it was a pretty big deal. The Quranic narrative is pretty different from the Biblical narrative of this event. It's more about trusting on God mercy.

I can see the advertisement now.
"Yahweh- the God that won't make you kill your children"

*Yahweh reserves the right to ask you to kill your children to test you or prove a point.

 

[Magni]

It's understood as being a proof of the Mercy of God actually, that He is not a God who will ask us to kill our kids for Him.

It's seem pretty normal to think so, but in the time of Abraham, peace upon him, it was a pretty big deal. The Quranic narrative is pretty different from the Biblical narrative of this event. It's more about trusting on God mercy.

Anyways, to get back to the subject, it remind me when you had this crazy hoax about muslims celebrating 11/09 when a dry cleaning service closed because of the 10th of Muharram commemoration of Imam Hussein martyrdom.

This. It's weird to look back on, but the concept of a God who didn't want the blood of your firstborn/your finest goat/an infidel or pagan for tribute was a pretty novel thing in the old days.

Why we celebrate any of this stuff now is a bit tougher to rationalize... but hey, community is important, right?

I would get all crazy as a kid watching the goats get slaughtered, and the sight of blood would get me all excited, but as a grown adult, I just can't help but feel bad. The streets here are tainted with blood and the smell is unbearable. It's good that most middle-class folk here have started just putting in money to various shops that specialize in distribution of meat instead of getting their own animals for the slaughter, but the city's still a blood-splattered mess on those 3 days.

It's kind of ironic to celebrate that your god doesn't want you to sacrifice children or animals by performing ritual slaughter of animals in the street.

I get the difference with a sacrifice, since you eat the animal, but still, pretty ironic IMO.

 

[Messofanego]

3k people died

I know empathy is a little obscure on gaf sometimes, but please get the fuck over yourself.

I'll never forget the moment my teacher pulled me out of the classroom balling her eyes out because she couldn't stand us seeing what had happened. It's an important event in US and world history. Posts like this are just crass in a way that makes me want to throw up. What the fuck is wrong with you? Is this somehow a match to see how much someone has suffered or something?

Please point out to me where I was objecting to the holiday falling on 9/11,or people celebrating it on that date.

The point that Americans should just "get over" 9/11 is fucking asinine, regardless of how it is posited. It was a horrific tragedy. One that specifically shaped world history after it, for better or worse. Handwaving it in such a way as Cyan did is just crass. It's intentionally incendiary in such a way as random flamebait shitspewing I'd associate with 4chan. To the point the only difference between me being banned for that post and him not is he has a red name.

If you keep on bringing up the fear of being banned, you know you done something wrong or didn't word your posts in the most reasonable fashion ("What the fuck is wrong with you?"). Carrying a persecution complex won't help, either.

 

[Sutton Dagger]

The way i understand the story is that both Abraham and his son, peace upon them, knew that God will save them and it was a demonstration of the total trust in God (tawwakul).
It's why the son of Abraham is so okay with the situation in the quranic narrative.

There is nothing wrong in asking and finding thing unsatisfying. For al-Ghazali, it's actually the path to true faith

Alternatively, the parable highlights the issue of faith and the fervour by which someone will put stock in unjustified beliefs. The fact that God didn't go through with the sacrifice is overshadowed by the fact that Abraham would have... It's incredibly disturbing.

 

[FyreWulff]

Easter moves around too. Christians have to deal with Hannukah being on Christmas this year. If anyone actually cares about this, they're stupid idiots.

 

[Heavy's Sandvich]

Muslims planned it all along from back in the day to make sure it falls on that date.

Spoiler

i'm a muzzer before I get banned

 

[Gordon Shumway]

I can't wait for the Trump tweets

.

 

[steamingsarcasm]

Don't celebrate it then...

It's not that hard of a decision. I don't understand the dilemma. It looks self imposed.

..................
What in the fuck?
If this aint trolling (I hope it is), then this is like saying christians shouldn't celebrate christmas cause it falls under some random date.

 

[Laughing Banana]

3k people died

I know empathy is a little obscure on gaf sometimes, but please get the fuck over yourself.

I'll never forget the moment my teacher pulled me out of the classroom balling her eyes out because she couldn't stand us seeing what had happened. It's an important event in US and world history. Posts like this are just crass in a way that makes me want to throw up. What the fuck is wrong with you? Is this somehow a match to see how much someone has suffered or something?

Oh get over yourself. He clearly responded to that one poster that said Muslims shouldn't celebrate one of their most celebrated days because it may coincidentally collide with 9/11. Blame your fellow bigoted countrymen for that.

 

[Diprosalic]

I hope americans never celebrate anything on august 6th or 9th.

 

[pa22word]

Who said anyone should "get over" it?

Cyan did, and plainly at that.

Cyan didn't handwave anything.

That he did. His post stands for itself. You can scroll up and read it if you like.

The fact that some people play up 9/11 to the scale of other bigger tragedies is odd. The Korean and Vietnam war were terrible. The two world wars were worse? Afghanistan/Irag? Bosnia? Rwanda? 9/11 was a terrible event but with a thankfully small number of deaths..

"because x was worse" isn't a great argument. In fact, it's a terrible argument. People died. It was a tragedy. Trying to moralize out the outcome because more people died during like say, the bubonic plauge just reeks of a person who's boxed himself into a corner and has no idea how to get out of it. Personally, I find it shameful.

9/11 Didn't change the world. America's response to it did.

You can parse it however you want. The fact is that a couple of dozen people flew planes into buildings and thousands died. Whether or not it was the act of the few or the response of the millions that changed history is a topic more for historians than for us today. The fact of the matter is that the world changed irrevocably since that day. Handwaving it away is cowardice, and I stand by that no matter what people like Mess down below try to defend the mods with.

It is about the rest of the world. There's a few billion Muslim folks that respect this particular holiday, and have done so, since before the US existed. Muslims in America should not, in any way shape of form, fear harm from celebrating it. But they will if it falls on 11th of September - because they know they aren't safe

I have no issue with the people of Muslim--or any faith for that matter--celebrating a holiday that falls on 9/11. I take issue with anyone's remarks who tries to deligitimize that day. As someone who lived through two terror attacks, both the OKC bombing (born and raised in OKC) in which I lost people close to me and the 9/11 bombing in which the people of my nation died, telling the US to just get over them is inexcusable, and frankly fucking disgusting.

 

[Tal Shiar Agent]

Jeez, it's nice that you get to be comfortable in the fact that a holiday like Christmas wouldn't run into this issue.

Christmas has evolved into a secular holiday in the United States.

3k people died

I know empathy is a little obscure on gaf sometimes, but please get the fuck over yourself.

I'll never forget the moment my teacher pulled me out of the classroom balling her eyes out because she couldn't stand us seeing what had happened. It's an important event in US and world history. Posts like this are just crass in a way that makes me want to throw up. What the fuck is wrong with you? Is this somehow a match to see how much someone has suffered or something?

I remember that day clearly. My uncle was a first responder in the FDNY. My mother and grandmother knew he would be on the scene and were watching the news closely. I remember the pure anguish they expelled when the towers collapsed. They had no idea if he was inside or not. By some luck one of the camera panned up the street after the collapse and just caught him alive, sitting on the sidewalk caked in dust.

 

[giga]

3k people died

I know empathy is a little obscure on gaf sometimes, but please get the fuck over yourself.

I'll never forget the moment my teacher pulled me out of the classroom balling her eyes out because she couldn't stand us seeing what had happened. It's an important event in US and world history. Posts like this are just crass in a way that makes me want to throw up. What the fuck is wrong with you? Is this somehow a match to see how much someone has suffered or something?

Did you read the post Cyan was responding to? Are you taking his post out of context? Because the context here is pretty important, wherein a poster said Musljms shouldn't celebrate their religious holiday.

 

[Slightly Live]

I have no issue with the people of Muslim--or any faith for that matter--celebrating a holiday that falls on 9/11. I take issue with anyone's remarks who tries to deligitimize that day. As someone who lived through two terror attacks, both the OKC bombing (born and raised in OKC) in which I lost people close to me and the 9/11 bombing in which the people of my nation died, telling the US to just get over them is inexcusable, and frankly fucking disgusting.

You seem to have your fingers lodged deep into your ears.

Saying "drop 9/11 as a sacred holiday" is not the same as "telling the US to just get over it". Calling someone a coward doesn't change it.

You think 9/11 should be remembered in a certain way, others disagree with you. It is not "frankly fucking disgusting". It's a difference of opinion.

The whole "deligitimizing" bullshit your are spewing is nonsense.

 

[pa22word]

Did you read the post Cyan was responding to? Are you taking his post out of context? Because the context here is pretty important, wherein a poster said Musljms shouldn't celebrate their religious holiday.

The context is irrelevant. He can respond to the post without disparaging the events and the suffering of the people of the US on 9/11. This isn't a zero sum game. Have some fucking class, for god's sake. Or is partisanship all that matters?

You think 9/11 should be remembered in a certain way, others disagree with you. It is not "frankly fucking disgusting". It's a difference of opinion.

3k people died.

If you do not think that is a tragedy, you disgust me. I offer no apologies. No difference of opinion. It's purely black and white for me.

 

[ManDudeChild]

I think this is a rare case where sharing a link as much as possible around Facebook, Reddit, etc social outlets would do legitimate good. The more people that know this is simply an unfortunate coincidence the better and safer for everyone.

 

[giga]

The context is irrelevant. He can respond to the post without disparaging the events and the suffering of the people of the US on 9/11. This isn't a zero sum game. Have some fucking class, for god's sake. Or is partisanship all that matters?

No it's not. And if you really believe that, when it was a reply to someone on a forum, I won't bother debating it.

 

[Slightly Live]

3k people died.

If you do not think that is a tragedy, you disgust me. I offer no apologies.

Here's the thing, nobody said that. Or implied it. Nobody here disagrees. Every single poster on this board thinks it was tragedy. There's no room for debate.

There's a legit threat to Muslims here because of a silly co-incidence and all you want to do is insult people and claim persecution. Get some perspective.

 

[pa22word]

No it's not. And if you really believe that, when it was a reply to someone on a forum, I won't bother debating it.

Fine with me. The forum has an ignore button for reason. I won't miss you if you use it. I've stated my argument plainly. I've said his statement was crass and insulting, and I stand by it.

 

[Hexa]

I don't think it will be based on how most places follow Saudi Arabia more closely then with EidalFitr, as it's connected to Hajj.
If it is though I won't celebrate it this year. Wouldn't feel right.

 

[sirap]

Can't wait to celebrate it. It's the only time I get to see my extended family, and this year I'm fortunate enough to be able to donate large amounts of food to our neighbors.

I've stated my opinion plainly on the topic matter. Why do you feel the need to continually bring it up like you're arguing with someone on fox news? Is it really that surprising that someone would be perfectly fine with someone celebrating an otherwise irrelevant holiday that happened to fall on 9/11, and having issues with cyan's post?

You can plainly take down a bigot without resorting to disparaging 9/11. The two aren't mutually exclusive, and anyone who thinks they are needs a reality check.

I understand you're angry, but there's no need to be disrespectful to those who do find Eid al-Adha important. This is an important event for millions of Muslims around the world.

 

[pa22word]

Here's the thing, nobody said that. Or implied it. Nobody here disagrees. Every single poster on this board thinks it was tragedy. There's no room for debate.

Cyan plainly did.

Get some perspective.

I would argue people like Cyan need the perspective.

I've stated my opinion plainly on the topic matter. Why do you feel the need to continually bring it up like you're arguing with someone on fox news? Is it really that surprising that someone would be perfectly fine with someone celebrating a holiday that happened to fall on 9/11, and having issues with cyan's post?

You can plainly take down a bigot without resorting to disparaging 9/11. The two aren't mutually exclusive, and anyone who thinks they are needs a reality check.

 

[Dayner_Kurdi]

and not forget the meat and BBQ, I will be damned, I don't really celebrate it for religion reason but its great excuse to have everyone come over.

 

[DragonSworne]

..................
What in the fuck?
If this aint trolling (I hope it is), then this is like saying christians shouldn't celebrate christmas cause it falls under some random date.

I would tell Christians to not celebrate either if they are in a country that suffered an attack from extremists in their religion on that day too.

Muslims in the United States can entirely avoid this issue by simply not celebrating or celebrating on another day. Pragmaticism should definitely win in this case.

 

[pa22word]

I understand you're angry, but there's no need to be disrespectful to those who do find Eid al-Adha important.

That was a frankly very poor choice of wording, and I apologize profusely if I offended anyone with it.

I meant "irrelevant" as in the context of 9/11, but I understand how that might be construed as offensive and as such have changed it. Again, sorry to all for the offense.

 

[Fat4all]

I would tell Christians to not celebrate either if they are in a country that suffered an attack from extremists in their religion on that day too.

Muslims in the United States can entirely avoid this issue by simply not celebrating or celebrating on another day. Pragmaticism should definitely win in this case.

this is kind of crazy to me

 

[Necromanti]

I would tell Christians to not celebrate either if they are in a country that suffered an attack from extremists in their religion on that day too.

Muslims in the United States can entirely avoid this issue by simply not celebrating or celebrating on another day. Pragmaticism should definitely win in this case.

So Muslims should accept the rhetoric that they are inherently linked to terrorism? You adhere to a non-universal definition of pragmatism. Besides, most people don't take note of when people are celebrating Eid anyway because it's usually a private affair in the Western world.

 

[Karu]

this is kind of crazy to me

Feel free to leave out the "kind of" part, but in a thread that through out the concept of context all together such details certainly don't matter anymore, I guess.

 

[faridmon]

OMG I am such an idiot, i just noticed that the date is on 9/11. Haha, getting used to the numbering of it rather than September the 11th is what is happening

 

[DragonSworne]

this is kind of crazy to me

Why, people often avoid dates associated with tragedies for celebrations. You often find people avoid 9/11 and 12/7 as wedding days for the same reasons.

Why celebrate when your nation is in mourning or recognizing a tragic event?

 

[Fat4all]

Why, people often avoid dates associated with tragedies for celebrations. You often find people avoid 9/11 and 12/7 as wedding days for the same reasons.

Why celebrate when your nation is in mourning or recognizing a tragic event?

how often does that collide with religious holidays, and how often are they avoided?

 

[[Agent]ZeroNine]

A lot of people (especially New Yorkers) are going to feel like this was an intentional move. I'm not going to say it is, nor will I say it isn't. Hopefully people can not get galvanized into acting out.

 

[jchap]

Something about basing a date on a visual confirmation of the moon's apparent phase seems so backwards to me. One of the oldest uses of mathematics in human history is the calculating of lunar phases. It likely precedes written history

 

[Tal Shiar Agent]

how often does that collide with religious holidays, and how often are they avoided?

As far as I know, all major holidays in the United States, religious and secular, are locked in on either a predetermined date (ie Xmas on 12/25) or a predetermined day of the week (IE Thanksgiving on the 4th Thursday of November). Except for Easter which jumps around between March and April.

 

[Nikodemos]

Something about basing a date on a visual confirmation of the moon's apparent phase seems so backwards to me. One of the oldest uses of mathematics in human history is the calculating of lunar phases. It likely precedes written history

Like everything else involving religion, it got subverted by politics.

 

[Wolfe]

Fine with me. The forum has an ignore button for reason. I won't miss you if you use it. I've stated my argument plainly. I've said his statement was crass and insulting, and I stand by it.

You're crass and insulting.

 

[Gordon Shumway]

A lot of people (especially New Yorkers) are going to feel like this was an intentional move. I'm not going to say it is, nor will I say it isn't. Hopefully people can not get galvanized into acting out.

You sure?