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Electric And Hybrid Cars Might Produce As Many Toxins As Diesels

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D

DrGonzo615

Banned
A study by Victor Timmers and A.J. Achten at the University of Edinburgh has found that, when you factor in everything, electric vehicles produce as many particulate matter (PM) emissions as conventional ICE vehicles.

This isn’t even factoring in the pollutants created generating the electricity itself, from coal or other sources; these are pollutants released from actually driving the individual car. The types of pollutants we’re talking about are PM emissions. These types of emissions are not really the result of the exhaust of an internal-combustion engine: 90 percent of PM emissions are from non-exhaust sources.

This is because the primary types of PM emissions—tire wear dust, brake pad dust, tiny road particles, and road dust re-suspension—are all factors that increase with the weight of a vehicle, and electric vehicles and hybrids, thanks to their dense battery packs, tend to weigh on average 24 percent more than fuel-burning cars.
Click to expand...

We found that non-exhaust emissions, from brakes, tyres and the road, are far larger than exhaust emissions in all modern cars. These are more toxic than emissions from modern engines so they are likely to be key factors in the extra heart attacks, strokes and asthma attacks seen when air pollution levels surge.
Click to expand...

Full article here

Technically, its not really related to them being battery-powered as it is a side effect of the additional weight from the batteries. Hopefully they can figure out how to make these things more compact and lighter.

Green Car Congress link here

Summation of the study and article:

-Tire and brake dust is bad for your health

-Heavier vehicles produce more of both

-Hybrids and EVs are heavier than their ICE counterparts due to the weight of the batteries

-Study proposes incentivizing lighter vehicles for the road
 
DOWN

DOWN

Banned
RIP that eco friendly green leaf they put next to the word hybrid

I've heard this before about Prius
 
P

Peru

Member
This is a very specific thing related to local air pollution and probably not enough to conclude anything there either, so the countless studies with reasons to change to electric and hybrid transport still stand.
 
D

Dreamwriter

Member
Nobody cares about these supposed "toxins", when people are discussing what cars produce, they are talking about gasses contributing to climate change and smog. And the electric and hybrid cars are extremely clean compared to all other cars in that sense. And how is road dust a "toxin"?

This article (and the paper) are trying to make electric engines sound horrible by using their own brand new term "particulate matter". But there's no info about the study - which cars did they study? What environments did they study them in? How toxic are these specific particulate matters? Who paid for the study?
 
A

A Fish Aficionado

I am going to make it through this year if it kills me
Now, the results may be a little misleading in some ways. What’s really being said here is that heavier vehicles will produce more particulates of everything: road dust, tire bits, brake pad powder, and so on.
Click to expand...

It's not like 3,500lb+ gas engine cars (rather low average on my part) are any better. I hate articles like this
 
A

AYF 001

Member
Which is why I still advocate improving mass transit infrastructure above all else. The per-person material cost of building cars and highways is too much for long-distance travel between dense urban populations.
 
J

jayhawker

Member
A Fish Aficionado said:
It's not like 3,500lb+ gas engine cars (rather low average on my part) are any better. I hate articles like this
Click to expand...

Well, a Model S is 1000 lbs more than that, so presumably those gas engine cars are better. It's obviously a different discussion than co2 emissions, but I care about local air quality, too. It's an interesting data point. I'm not sure if it's possible to lower the battery weight unless we use a completely different type of battery tech.
 
B

Brandson

Member
Dreamwriter said:
Nobody cares about these supposed "toxins", when people are discussing what cars produce, they are talking about gasses contributing to climate change and smog. And the electric and hybrid cars are extremely clean compared to all other cars in that sense. And how is road dust a "toxin"?
Click to expand...

I've seen a lot of Teslas around here. Never seen their tires go up in a puff of smoke under regular driving. I have seen plenty of exhaust clouds from diesels though. I'd rather take my chances with the electrics. Something would have to go seriously wrong for ordinary tire wear to be a significant contributor to urban smog. If that happened, the tire manufacturers would probably have to answer for it.
 
D

DrGonzo615

Banned
A Fish Aficionado said:
It's not like 3,500lb+ gas engine cars (rather low average on my part) are any better. I hate articles like this
Click to expand...


They are comparing ICE vehicles to their comparable hybrid and EV models, which weight an average of 24% more.

Its all spelled out in the article, not sure what the problem is.
 
Rentahamster

Rentahamster

Rodent Whores
So? All cars produce particulate matter pollution because they're cars and they have lots of moving parts. People inclined to not like electric cars are probably going to use this to say that "see??? electric cars are a waste of time and don't do anything!", when the fact is that EVs are still way cleaner than regular cars when you take overall emissions into consideration.
 
A

androvsky

Member
Shockingly, the article itself isn't completely stupid.

Now, the results may be a little misleading in some ways. What’s really being said here is that heavier vehicles will produce more particulates of everything: road dust, tire bits, brake pad powder, and so on.

It’s only an issue with electric cars because batteries are heavy; an electric car as light as an average gasoline car would get better results. Also, technically, even a horse cart would produce these particulate emissions, especially road dust re-suspension, which is one of the major sources of PM emissions.

Hell, anything on the road would produce road dust. A hippo. A herd of rats. A giant, rolling boulder.

Also, electric vehicles’ regenerative braking might mitigate the brake dust production, though that may be offset by the greater weight when the brakes actually do get employed. Electric vehicles also tend to use harder tire compounds for less rolling resistance, and those compounds tend to – at least in my personal experience and not in a controlled study – break down into dryer, more dust-like particles than conventional tires.
Click to expand...
 
A

A Fish Aficionado

I am going to make it through this year if it kills me
DrGonzo615 said:
They are comparing ICE vehicles to their comparable hybrid and EV models, which weight an average of 24% more.

Its all spelled out in the article, not sure what the problem is.
Click to expand...

I understand the physics, not the bent the article has.

It all depends on the brake compound, some cars are notorious for brake dust.
 
N

Neo C.

Member
Sorry, it's late here and I'm too lazy for searching sources in English now, but particulates are a very serious matter and has been linked to many diseases like cancer, dementia and even diabetes, because particulates might constantly activate our immunsystem which then influences our insulin level.

Making cars lighter should be a top priority, because it has several positive aspects (better mpg, better for breaks and tyres, less usage of resources etc.), but instead we are so focused on mpg, that we forget to put concern on size and weight.
 
D

DrGonzo615

Banned
A Fish Aficionado said:
I understand the physics, not the bent the article has.

It all depends on the brake compound, some cars are notorious for brake dust.
Click to expand...

They seem to go out of their way to make sure that the article explains that they are not talking about exhaust emissions. Not sure where the "bent" is in the article.

Yeah, its definitely true that certain factors change things like brake pad dust. I havent read the entire study report but Im assuming they are using stock pads.

I think adds another wrinkle of complexity when talking about the future of transportation though and that its not just as simple as eliminating exhaust emissions.
 
D

DrGonzo615

Banned
Neo C. said:
Sorry, it's late here and I'm too lazy for searching sources in English now, but particulates are a very serious matter and has been linked to many diseases like cancer, dementia and even diabetes, because particulates might constantly activate our immunsystem which then influence our insulin level.

Making cars lighter should be a top priority, because it has several positive aspects (better mpg, better for breaks and tyres, less usage of resources etc.), but instead we are so focused on mpg, that we forget to put concern on size and weight.
Click to expand...


Time for the government to give us big tax bonuses on light cars!

I will have to go buy a Caterham.....for the environment!

Caterham_R300.jpg
 
U

univariate

Banned
This is ridiculous. So, tire dust has more of a negative effect on health vs combusting fossil fuels? Fuck outta here with that nonsense
 
U

univariate

Banned
Neo C. said:
Sorry, it's late here and I'm too lazy for searching sources in English now, but particulates are a very serious matter and has been linked to many diseases like cancer, dementia and even diabetes, because particulates might constantly activate our immunsystem which then influences our insulin level.

Making cars lighter should be a top priority, because it has several positive aspects (better mpg, better for breaks and tyres, less usage of resources etc.), but instead we are so focused on mpg, that we forget to put concern on size and weight.
Click to expand...
Car weight and mpg are not mutually exclusive, they go hand in hand. Cars are far lighter than they've ever been.
 
O

Orbis

Member
univariate said:
This is ridiculous. So, tire dust has more of a negative effect on health vs combusting fossil fuels? Fuck outta here with that nonsense
Click to expand...
Well the study is only about particulate emissions as you say. It's not about the total pollution of electric/petrol/diesel cars which would include CO2 etc.

Main points to consider. Particulate emissions like this are more of a localised pollution issue. So they will not contribute to global climate change. May fuck with your lungs. Secondly, anything with any mass on the road will cause PM emissions if we include re-suspension as the study does. Re-suspension is literally, 'soot and dust that the vehicle kicks up from the road that was already there". If you take away re-suspension, EVs cause less PM emissions.
 
kavanf1

kavanf1

Member
I'm sure as the tech advances they'll bring the weight down. Ultimately electric cars will be better for the environment, even if there are issues along the way.
 
N

Neo C.

Member
univariate said:
Car weight and mpg are not mutually exclusive, they go hand in hand. Cars are far lighter than they've ever been.
Click to expand...

Not really, just compare the Honda Civic first generation with the latest one. It's even more ridiculous when we look at the whole picture with SUVs gaining more marketshare every year.
 
S

subrock

Member
SigSig said:
Holy mother of clickbait
Click to expand...

yup. The anti-EV money is sure getting into every nook and cranny these days. It's one of those "it's so dumb and backwards that it must be true" kind of stories that people seem to not really investigate past the shitty shocking headline.
 
A

Anion

Member
Always knew that brake dust collecting on my shinny rims was just as bad as 2nd hand smoking.

Smh. Time to get some Xpell treatments
 
Rentahamster

Rentahamster

Rodent Whores
DrGonzo615 said:
Its really not if you read the article. This basically sums up the entire deal:

-Tire and brake dust is bad for your health

-Heavier vehicles produce more of both

-Hybrids and EVs are heavier than their ICE counterparts due to the weight of the batteries

-Study proposes incentivizing lighter vehicles for the road
Click to expand...

Yeah it is. The Daily Mail is taking the study and insinuating that combustion cars are just as dirty as EV cars. To Jalopnik's credit, they try to contextualize Daily Mail's shoddy reporting, but they still need to resort to clickbait in order to do so.

Essentially, the amount of people who takeaway the idea that "EVs are just as bad" is probably a number greater than zero. Which is too high.
 
D

DrGonzo615

Banned
Rentahamster said:
Yeah it is. The Daily Mail is taking the study and insinuating that combustion cars are just as dirty as EV cars. To Jalopnik's credit, they try to contextualize Daily Mail's shoddy reporting, but they still need to resort to clickbait in order to do so.

Essentially, the amount of people who takeaway the idea that "EVs are just as bad" is probably a number greater than zero. Which is too high.
Click to expand...

Good thing I didnt post the daily mail article.
 
TyphoonStruggle

TyphoonStruggle

Member
Okay. Particulate matter is bad. Electric cars and hybrids produce more particulate matter than internal combustion engine cars.

This does not include climate change due to greenhouse gas emissions.

I think climate change is the bigger issue here.
 
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