Rentahamster
Rodent Whores
I know that. It still doesn't invalidate what I said. Look, I'm not trying to bust your balls over your thread. I'm just adding more context to what Jalopnik wrote, given that their title isn't doing them any favors.
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Electric And Hybrid Cars Might Produce As Many Toxins As Diesels
- Thread starter DrGonzo615
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I know that. It still doesn't invalidate what I said. Look, I'm not trying to bust your balls over your thread. I'm just adding more context to what Jalopnik wrote, given that their title isn't doing them any favors.
TyphoonStruggle
Member
Ya. Reading this article on my phone means electromagnetic waves are flowing through my brain that can cause cancer... or whatever.
hahaha cancer amirite?!
You know we could look into reducing co2 and other environmental hazards from cars at the same time. No, lets just lol and pretend we solved something by buying an electric car.
Fine Ham Abounds
Member
This seems vastly more relevant, although still not exactly comparing apples to oranges without listing the resources used to create gasoline/diesel fuel, and a comparison of resources used to create all types of vehicles.
DrGonzo615
Banned
A quick Google search will show that "road dust" has had several studies performed about it.
Again the article mentions that they dont produce more road dust because the cars are electric....its because they are heavier than their ICE equivalents.
Evo is a good guy who just wanted to share.
The backlash discouraged me from posting a similar thread about the 2016 Volt that I bout this year. Thought it would have been educational for some but seems frowned upon by folks.
jellies_two
Member
The study is bullshit
Prius and tesla and any high efficiency car uses regenerative braking, which means very little brake dust.
If car weight tires and roads are a health risk, then fix that connection. EVs will benefit. And so will SUVs: which US consumers and in fact every country has been massively embracing. The average weight of an suv is way more than an EV. Introduce a tax on excessive weight. (Hint: consumer backlash from suv owners wanting the biggest tank to protect their family would block it).
Where did these guys get their funding?
If you move pollution from the tail pipe and noise pollution from the engine and work pollution from the workshops and reduce the need to truck gas around everywhere you can make dramatic cuts in pollution where it is then concentrated: at the factory, at the mine, at the energy generation site.
Prius and tesla and any high efficiency car uses regenerative braking, which means very little brake dust.
If car weight tires and roads are a health risk, then fix that connection. EVs will benefit. And so will SUVs: which US consumers and in fact every country has been massively embracing. The average weight of an suv is way more than an EV. Introduce a tax on excessive weight. (Hint: consumer backlash from suv owners wanting the biggest tank to protect their family would block it).
Where did these guys get their funding?
If you move pollution from the tail pipe and noise pollution from the engine and work pollution from the workshops and reduce the need to truck gas around everywhere you can make dramatic cuts in pollution where it is then concentrated: at the factory, at the mine, at the energy generation site.
DrGonzo615
Banned
Haha, the salt was real. But the Porsche that just happened to be in the picture really doomed that thread.
jellies_two
Member
Then why mention brake pad dust in the OP
So if it's tire wear dust, fix that. Since the suv fleet is hugely more than the EV fleet that would be the biggest win globally and then evs get to benefit too.
And trucks and school buses and public transport with rubber. And the Paris metro. Etc.
So if it's tire wear dust, fix that. Since the suv fleet is hugely more than the EV fleet that would be the biggest win globally and then evs get to benefit too.
And trucks and school buses and public transport with rubber. And the Paris metro. Etc.
The thread wasnt too bad. Were some good question actually. I would say please do make a thread! Autogaf will come and help lol
davepoobond
you can't put a price on sparks
I thought the whole point was to reduce global warming, why would toxins ever be a focus for anyone's purchasing of a car?
Giant Panda
Member
What? You don't think it's important to look at the total effect of a car? That's just cherry picking which externality you actually care about.
Anyway, hopefully technology will find a way to solve this problem, whether that be through better tires and roads, or lighter vehicles.
Honestly anyone interested should read the green car congress breakdown on it.
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2016/04/20160418-pm10.html
One of the paper's authors has a company attempting to or is making some sort of innovative efficient ICE/hydraulic drivetrain for both industrial vehicles and normal cars so there is probably bias here but it shouldn't discredit the results unless something is incorrect.
And from what I understand it was published in a peer review journal so if there are flaws in the study they will come out.
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2016/04/20160418-pm10.html
One of the paper's authors has a company attempting to or is making some sort of innovative efficient ICE/hydraulic drivetrain for both industrial vehicles and normal cars so there is probably bias here but it shouldn't discredit the results unless something is incorrect.
And from what I understand it was published in a peer review journal so if there are flaws in the study they will come out.
jellies_two
Member
What is the definition of "resuspension".
edit it is this, here a Ford is pictured re-suspending more PM10 particles in a minute than the entire prius fleet in CA does in a day:
Honestly this looks like reading tea leaves.
There are too many variables to draw any headline conclusions. Is dust from tires or roads or brakes better/worse/the same as soot from exhausts? what about CO2, what about other chemicals from internal combustion engines, what about noise pollution, and the money spent on on-going service costs.
If this is just looking at particulate matter at a certain size it is only looking at one aspect (size and quantity) of one kind of emission, one toxin, of the MANY involved in manufacturing, use and disposal.
Look at the headline of this topic:
"Electric and Hybrid cars might produce as many toxins as diesels."
That is completely misleading as a statement. For so many reasons including that a Prius (the most popular hybrid) is actually lighter and has narrower tires than the average car.
I don't know if anyone has done a full cycle analysis of what an EV or Hybrid produces toxins wise, vs diesel or other vehicle, but this study certainly isn't it.
edit it is this, here a Ford is pictured re-suspending more PM10 particles in a minute than the entire prius fleet in CA does in a day:
Honestly this looks like reading tea leaves.
There are too many variables to draw any headline conclusions. Is dust from tires or roads or brakes better/worse/the same as soot from exhausts? what about CO2, what about other chemicals from internal combustion engines, what about noise pollution, and the money spent on on-going service costs.
If this is just looking at particulate matter at a certain size it is only looking at one aspect (size and quantity) of one kind of emission, one toxin, of the MANY involved in manufacturing, use and disposal.
Look at the headline of this topic:
"Electric and Hybrid cars might produce as many toxins as diesels."
That is completely misleading as a statement. For so many reasons including that a Prius (the most popular hybrid) is actually lighter and has narrower tires than the average car.
I don't know if anyone has done a full cycle analysis of what an EV or Hybrid produces toxins wise, vs diesel or other vehicle, but this study certainly isn't it.
jellies_two
Member
Curb weight of current Prius Hybrid: 1379kg
Curb weight of average 4 door sedan: 1400-1600kg
They won't cause climate change of course. but those "toxins" have been known to cause cancer. So perhaps we dial back on the snark juuust a tad. Obviously electric cars are better for the environment that gas cars, but everyone knows if you breathe too much of that shit in it can be bad for you, and this article is saying, car class vs car class electrics cause more of said shit due to their weight.
davepoobond
you can't put a price on sparks
maybe in the aggregate.
but when you, as an individual, go to buy a car, are you thinking "how many toxins does this vehicle produce?"
no. you are worried about carbon emissions and saving money on gas among all else. not sure i've ever heard of or seen any company market based on "reduced toxins" -- not to mention practically all of our electronics have the same issues involved with them.
titiklabingapat
Member
oops wrong thread
So an electric passenger vehicle is heavier than an Internal Combustion vehicle despite having no transmission, no gas tank, no driveshafts, no oil, no gasoline, no coolant, no radiator, no oil cooler, no fuel filters, no exhaust system with no muffler or pollution control devices?
From what I can find the 85kwh tesla battery pack is 1200 pounds or so.
It varies greatly engine to engine but old aluminum big block v8 engines can be around 550 pounds or so and most passenger cars made in the last 20 years have engines that are a lot smaller and lighter than those.
So yes the engine and transmission and all the accessories is lighter.
Like the curbweight of a stock jeep yj with a cast iron 4.0 liter engine is 3200-3400 pounds or so.
The curbweight of the Tesla model S is 4300-4900 pounds depending on the battery installed.
Those battery packs are heavy and I doubt they'll really be able to decrease the battery pack weight anytime in the near future unless someone comes up with a different battery that'll work for EV's and is lighter which I find doubtful.
True, but the Tesla has regenerative braking, so it should at least have reduced brake pad wear over a car of similar weight. Not sure how much less though.
uncelestial
Member
Since those "emissons" aren't greenhouse gasses, the real question is: who gives a shit?
It really depends on how you drive them. I also think we need to seriously look at the environmental cost of producing a metric fuckton of batteries with current technology.
Um... What is this attitude? So you don't care about farm runoff, industrial waste, leaking landfills, nuclear waste. As long as it's not a greenhouse gas who gives a shit if you die from other pollution?
uncelestial
Member
Probably best to focus on the types of pollution that cars generate. Yes, those things are important. But "tire wear dust, brake pad dust, tiny road particles, and road dust re-suspension" vs. "rendering the planet uninhabitable" is an easy one. In particular, since there is only at 24% increase in these things for EVs and a 100% drop in planet-killing greenhouse gas, I pretty much consider this agitprop.
efyu_lemonardo
May I have a cookie?
another win for hoverboards
Indeed.
Also similar cars are getting significantly heavier due in part to additional safety measures being required. For example civics have gained 20-40% in weight in the past few decades.
Cars dropped in weight dramatically in the 70s and 80s to increase mileage, and now are regaining that weight for increased safety and comfort.
Because the caveats call into question why the article should have been written to begin with if no new conclusions are drawn.
BudokaiMR2
Member
Well hurry the fuck up and build us some hover Anti-gravity engines!
Lazy fucking scientists.
Lazy fucking scientists.
The tech is there, it's mainly a matter of priority. The new Miata for example is lighter than previous models and has got way more safety features. And Mazda has achieved this without going aluminium IIRC.
A lot of people seem to be calling bullshit on the study because of a bad headline. You need to separate the study and the reporting about that study.
We can't complain about how many people die from cancer every year and then say "who gives a shit" about carcinogens.
We can't complain about how many people die from cancer every year and then say "who gives a shit" about carcinogens.
Bigboss242
Banned
More motorcycles and scooters for the road.
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