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[QuicheFontaine]

Referendum to take place on 23rd June PM announces.

Smart move from Dave. The sooner the better from the point of view of anyone wanting "remain" to win.

If it was held in 2017 I'd be pretty confident in leave winning. But June this year I'd put at about 50/50. It's gonna be close.

 

[Linkified]

I didn't think so. Maybe the phrasing was just poor and they were referring to that exemption from "ever closer union", but I was gobsmacked when they said it. We already have an opt-out from the Euro don't we?

Edit:



How long would that take? Also I'm pretty sure several EU countries have a requirement to hold their own referendum when approving any treaty change.

What a farce.

Years? The whole reason why it was silly to crow over. When UK can't trust any of those political leaders of Europe. Now if we vote to stay in and the treaties aren't verified do we get a second referendum. George Osbourne thinks it is legally binding, presenter of radio 4 said it isn't.

 

[Lagamorph]

The Euro has evolved into a major currency. Name any currency (Mark, Franc, Lira..) that would have similar power. The EU is the second most important reserve currency of the IMF (24% for comparison GBP only is 4%, CHF is 0,3%)

That has come at the expense of countries like Greece though. The Euro has been a benefit to Germany and possibly France, but it's arguable if other countries have really benefited from it long term.

Thats basically the idea of a political union. to give away powers and harmonize in order to prevent warmongering and to enhance prosperity for all.

But for that to work it needs to be an all or nothing approach from Day one. Everything needs to be the same in every country. The current gradual/half-hearted approach by the EU though is taking far too long and tied up in far too much red tape. You've also got the issue of the people living in those countries having little to no say on which powers are given away and how new powers from the EU are determined or implemented.

Yeah sure but Berlin, Paris, Rome are all also important but they dont get that special treatment.

Sorry, but those cities don't even begin to approach London when it comes to their global importance, especially in the financial markets.

 

[QuicheFontaine]

Years? The whole reason why it was silly to crow over. When UK can't trust any of those political leaders of Europe. Now if we vote to stay in and the treaties aren't verified do we get a second referendum. George Osbourne thinks it is legally binding, presenter of radio 4 said it isn't.

Agree completely. The negotiations were pointless before they began, and it was always just a PR move so that Dave could return from Brussels waving a piece of paper and claiming "victory".

As far as a second referendum goes, that's always been quite interesting hasn't it? Remember the Lisbon Treaty and the repeated votes in Ireland to get the "correct" answer? The Netherlands is holding a referendum in April on the EU-Ukraine agreement. I wonder if they will run that again if they get the wrong answer.

 

[Tak3n]

if the leave campaign can nab Boris Johnson, that would be huge

 

[CharmingCharlie]

My reaction to this "ground breaking deal" by Mr Hameron :

I will be voting to leave the EU. I personally believe it is inevitable that the UK will leave the EU at some point in the future. So we might as well leave now and get the pain over with. Plus the icing on the cake is that Davey's legacy would be "The PM that failed to keep the UK in Europe".

However I am not expecting the leave vote to win this time. I have no doubt we will get all the same shit the poor Scots were subjected too and they will terrify people into voting to stay in the EU.

 

[Lagamorph]

However I am not expecting the leave vote to win this time. I have no doubt we will get all the same shit the poor Scots were subjected too and they will terrify people into voting to stay in the EU.

The difference there is that independence at that time would've been absolutely the wrong move for Scotland, whilst staying in the EU is the right move for the UK.

 

[Linkified]

Agree completely. The negotiations were pointless before they began, and it was always just a PR move so that Dave could return from Brussels waving a piece of paper and claiming "victory".

As far as a second referendum goes, that's always been quite interesting hasn't it? Remember the Lisbon Treaty and the repeated votes in Ireland to get the "correct" answer? The Netherlands is holding a referendum in April on the EU-Ukraine agreement. I wonder if they will run that again if they get the wrong answer.

The people who want to be out of Europe, boils down to four points:

• % of citizens want no free movement of labour
• % of citizens want migrant labour to be able support themselves first before arriving to the UK
• % of citizens wants migrant labour to be refused welfare benefits. If they need to seek welfare they have to return to their country of citizenship.
• Most want law making powers to be a power removed from EU Parliament - that goes beyond the UK.

Dave kinda hit a little bit at the third and fourth point. However needed to go stronger with those two as well as put a blockade to migrant labour. Which much of Western Europe wants tighter regulation for movement of labour

 

[Randomizer123454444]

There is going to be a loser if UK leaves. Either UK will lose in economic sense and EU will be fine, or EU loses if members see that UK benefits from leaving EU. Either way, as a scandinavian I wish UK will stay.

June 23rd is quite close, not much time to mount a campaign either way.

 

[Frankfurter]

The people who want to be out of Europe, boils down to four points:

• % of citizens want no free movement of labour
• % of citizens want migrant labour to be able support themselves first before arriving to the UK
• % of citizens wants migrant labour to be refused welfare benefits. If they need to seek welfare they have to return to their country of citizenship.
  [*]Most want law making powers to be a power removed from EU Parliament - that goes beyond the UK.

Dave kinda hit a little bit at the third and fourth point. However needed to go stronger with those two as well as put a blockade to migrant labour. Which much of Western Europe wants tighter regulation for movement of labour

That's a terrible point. Why on earth remove power from the only EU body that's actually being elected by the people?

 

[Audioboxer]

My reaction to this "ground breaking deal" by Mr Hameron :

I will be voting to leave the EU. I personally believe it is inevitable that the UK will leave the EU at some point in the future. So we might as well leave now and get the pain over with. Plus the icing on the cake is that Davey's legacy would be "The PM that failed to keep the UK in Europe".

However I am not expecting the leave vote to win this time. I have no doubt we will get all the same shit the poor Scots were subjected too and they will terrify people into voting to stay in the EU.

The terrify to stay in vote nonsense would have to come from Labour and I doubt as a party they are in any shape to coherently argue anything right now. Maybe the papers depending on their agendas will have at it.

I don't think you will have to worry about scare tactics North of the border. In a selfish sense the SNP are probably hoping Cameron leads England to a mass leave vote and the Scottish people vote on majority to stay in. That will almost certainly trigger another referendum up here in which emotions will probably swing it to yes if it's boiled down to England dragging us out of the EU.

The SNP want independence so in that selfish sense why campaign England to vote to stay in? All they need to do is convince Scots to want to stay in and that potential divide of feeling dragged out against our will can spearhead another referendum. Polls suggest a good portion of us up here are already in favour of staying. England can take the matter into their own hands as the largest demographic in the UK.

 

[Yen]

Part of me wants a constitutional crisis to arise from this if the devolved regions vote to stay and England votes to leave, but I don't think that'll happen. 'Project Fear' will be enough to ensure an In vote.

 

[Undead]

I feel that if the UK vote to leave then Scotland will call another ref which this time will pass because joining the EU will be the sweetener.

EDIT, ignore me, was already said.

 

[Audioboxer]

I feel that if the UK vote to leave then Scotland will call another ref which this time will pass because joining the EU will be the sweetener.

EDIT, ignore me, was already said.

Nah not ignoring you. It's a point of debate. As in this case there literally is no other choice for Scotland IF the majority choose to stay in the EU it will either be go independent and stay in or accept we are leaving the EU and that's it.

As things stand England really do have the big decision to make here. As voters however you still have to vote for what you believe is best and not bother with Scotland In one sense. I mean regardless of current polls anyway Scotland can still vote on majority to leave. However a general feeling up here is some will ignore really taking this vote seriously and instead try and fix the results to spearhead another referendum by voting yes to stay in without even bothering to debate the EU argument.

It might end up being a right mess. At least for now let's just hope scaremongering can feck off and all sides of the arguments are simply well laid out and represented by facts or reasonable propositions. Expecting that of our government though.....

 

[Uzzy]

Michael Gove's statement on why he's backing the out campaign is pretty damn good.

 

[dapperbandit]

The difference there is that independence at that time would've been absolutely the wrong move for Scotland, whilst staying in the EU is the right move for the UK.

Opinions.

 

[Spaghetti]

Loving the fact the right wing papers have turned on Cameron after acting effectively as the press office of the Conservative party during the election. I can understand why the Tories like to keep cosy with them, but they'll undoubtedly burn their fingers if they dare to disagree.

 

[Uzzy]

Loving the fact the right wing papers have turned on Cameron after acting effectively as the press office of the Conservative party during the election. I can understand why the Tories like to keep cosy with them, but they'll undoubtedly burn their fingers if they dare to disagree.

That's hardly surprising. They've been banging on about restoring borders, sovereignty, getting rid of vast swathes of EU regulations and courts, the social chapter, the working time directive. Nothing less than fundamental reform of the EU would have satisfied them, to help bring about the 'multi-tier' EU that allows countries like the UK to have all the benefits of free trade but none of the costs.

Instead, Cameron's managed to get some measly changes to child benefit laws.

 

[Mac@NeoGAF]

That will almost certainly trigger another referendum up here in which emotions will probably swing it to yes if it's boiled down to England dragging us out of the EU.

Lol..there are reasons for the Scots to vote for independence, but over the EU?, makes no sense.

Over 70% of Scottish exports go to the rUK.

If you think leaving the UK, then joining the EU (if they'll even have you, years down the road) will help Scottish business and jobs, you really don't know how things work.

 

[Audioboxer]

Lol..there are reasons for the Scots to vote for independence, but over the EU?, makes no sense.

Over 70% of Scottish exports go to the rUK.

If you think leaving the UK, then joining the EU (if they'll even have you, years down the road) will help Scottish business and jobs, you really don't know how things work.

We'll see!

I think the bigger reason for the referendum is the fact our country can vote in favour of something but because England is bigger their vote can make ours "pointless".

If you're independent no other country can nuke your vote. Most of us up here simply want to be in charge of our country ourselves and not have Westminster get the last say. I think that was apparent with the SNP landslide, even after the country voted NO to independence.

 

[Ferulci]

French medias make it look like Camero got a major victory over EU. As a french, I'm conflicted over this : I dont think we will miss England if they leave (even though we love you guys) but I dont wish for an "Europe à la carte" where each Prime Minister is going crazy to satisfy the far right.

 

[Mac@NeoGAF]

We'll see!
If you're independent no other country can nuke your vote.

I'm sure the Greeks felt like that at one time.

If you think the French or Germans will consider Scottish interests more than the UK, then you'll be in for a rude awakening.

 

[Audioboxer]

I'm sure the Greeks felt like that at one time.

If you think the French or Germans will consider Scottish interests more than the UK, then you'll be in for a rude awakening.

The thing is up here people feel enough ambition to make our own history, not worry about other countries failing.

Sure we could fuck it all up, but it feels good to actually have the gonads to try and not say we can't do it because "x country" couldn't. I for one certainly don't think we have a government up here riddled with corruption and such an interest in weapons, war and being a big show on the world scene. It certainly helps when your politicians aren't all multi millionaires riding large corporations into the sunset for personal wealth and interests.

Heck our whole government up here wants to say fuck trident. It's Westminster and the global scene boys who want it.

 

[Oriel]

No one says Scotland can't be independent, the issue has always been that the SNP tried to buy independence on a platform of lies and false figures.

The 'White Paper' they published has turned out to be a complete work of fiction, just as the realists predicted at the time.

If they go for independence, fine, but there needs to be some honesty with the Scottish people about the costs and implications of such a move.

Divesting yourself from 300yrs of economic and cultural integration will not be cheap or painless as was made out by the snake oil salesman of the SNP.

And need I remind you that Ireland remained dirt poor for nearly 60yrs after independence, it was only with the sudden influx of EU funds, cheap loans and generous tax avoidance schemes for multi nationals that changed the situation and in the end, it bankrupted a generation.

The issue of economic success and wealth isn't relevant when it comes to declaring independence or not, it's about nationalism and patriotism. Do you think the Irish for one second ever wished to rejoin the UK even in the midst of poverty? Of course not. If there was a convincing economic case for the US to be returned to the UK how many Americans do you honestly think would agree to this. With the no vote in the Indy referendum the Scots basically accepted they weren't a nation but rather a mere province of Britain. No matter how wealthy we could potentially be under London rule I would never, ever accept a return to British rule.

Countries don't split away from other countries because of monetary issues, they do so because of a distinct identity of their own.

 

[Spaghetti]

That's hardly surprising. They've been banging on about restoring borders, sovereignty, getting rid of vast swathes of EU regulations and courts, the social chapter, the working time directive. Nothing less than fundamental reform of the EU would have satisfied them, to help bring about the 'multi-tier' EU that allows countries like the UK to have all the benefits of free trade but none of the costs.

Instead, Cameron's managed to get some measly changes to child benefit laws.

I have to ask, what is it about the working time directive that makes the right wing papers so eager to have it removed?

 

[Mac@NeoGAF]

Sure we could fuck it all up, but it feels good to actually have the gonads to try

But you don't. If you did the economic arguments wouldn't have even been a factor in the referendum, but they were and the economics were ultimately what lost it.

It would be doubly so today.

Scotland will not leave the UK over the EU.

 

[Mac@NeoGAF]

No matter how wealthy we could potentially be under London rule I would never, ever accept a return to British rule.

That's because you look at the UK through the prism of colonial conquest.

Scotland has never been a colony.

 

[Audioboxer]

But you don't. If you did the economic arguments wouldn't have even been a factor in the referendum, but they were and the economics were ultimately what lost it.

It would be doubly so today.

Scotland will not leave the UK over the EU.

The referendum was a mess, look at what Westminster promised days before it ended. It was sheer desperation.

Like it or not a lot of those up here who believed the vow have turned on Cameron and the other lackies involved. As I already said the SNP wouldn't have decimated everyone in the general election if there were still large supports of faith up here in Westminster.

Politics have changed up here, for the better and those not in Scotland can speculate whatever they want. As a nation though we are far more clued up on making political decisions and not buying into bias and the media.

I wish we had some more grass roots parties for SNP opposition for sure. As I said before Labour and Conservative Scotland are just Westminster-lite still.

 

[Mac@NeoGAF]

As a nation though we are far more clued up on making political decisions and not buying into bias and the media.

Latest Yougov poll puts support for independence at exactly the same level as in 2014, 45%

Unless leaving the EU sees that jump to at least 60%, Sturgeon won't risk another referendum loss over the EU.

And besides, for any future referendum to be legal and recognised, it would have to have the consent of Westminster..and good luck with that.

 

[Audioboxer]

Latest Yougov poll puts support for independence at exactly the same level as in 2014, 45%

Unless leaving the EU sees that jump to at least 60%, Sturgeon won't risk another referendum loss over the EU.

And besides, for any future referendum to be legal and recognised, it would have to have the consent of Westminster..and good luck with that.

It's the people of Scotland who vote for another referendum to pass in SNP policy. You really think Westminster would block that happening? Yeah that would be political suicide to railroad democracy.

They all know fine well if Scotland vote by majority to stay in and England by majority to leave another referendum is almost inevitable. Drag a country against its will out of the EU and then not allow it a vote on independence? That's asking for Braveheart 2.0.

I mean that only goes to show why Scottish people hate Westminster as much as they do. We should be able to make massive decisions like this ourselves but as you put it "good luck on the big Daddy down south allowing you guys to do it".

 

[Linkified]

That's a terrible point. Why on earth remove power from the only EU body that's actually being elected by the people?

Because laws start and stop at a national level, anything else should be signed and ratified by treaties.

 

[Mac@NeoGAF]

It's the people of Scotland who vote for another referendum to pass in SNP policy. You really think Westminster would block that happening? Yeah that would be political suicide to railroad democracy.

Constitutional matters are reserved to Westminster, whilst Scotland is part of the UK, you obey the rules just like anyone else.

Of course, you could try and go down the route of a UDI but the implications of that for Scotland would be disastrous.

No country would recognise you as independent, Scotland would be blocked from access to all international institutions, no one would lend you money to keep the lights on etc,etc.

You will not get a sympathetic hearing from other countries for not getting another referendum so soon after the last.

 

[Uzzy]

I have to ask, what is it about the working time directive that makes the right wing papers so eager to have it removed?

It's a restriction on an individual's right to work as many hours as they want, and on employers rights. It's EU interference with the British free market, in other words.

It didn't help that it's introduction was controversial either. Back in 1993, when the working time directive was introduced, the UK voted against it in the Council of Ministers, and refused to implement it on the basis that it was social legislation, and the UK had an opt-out from that since Maastricht in 1992. But the EU Commission instead claimed that it was based on health and safety laws, which the UK didn't have an opt-out over, so we had to abide by it. The UK lost the court case over it too.

 

[Audioboxer]

Constitutional matters are reserved to Westminster, whilst Scotland is part of the UK, you obey the rules just like anyone else.

Of course, you could try and go down the route of a UDI but the implications of that for Scotland would be disastrous.

No country would recognise you as independent, Scotland would be blocked from access to all international institutions, no one would lend you money to keep the lights on etc,etc.

You will not get a sympathetic hearing from other countries for not getting another referendum so soon after the last.

Good thing I don't truly belive the fear you're posting will actually happen. If people up here vote for another referendum due to the EU vote the referendum will go ahead. You can be confident it won't I am confident it will, lets wait and see. We need to see what happens in June first.

 

[Beefy]

So what is everyone voting?

I am on the fence.

 

[QuicheFontaine]

It's the people of Scotland who vote for another referendum to pass in SNP policy. You really think Westminster would block that happening? Yeah that would be political suicide to railroad democracy.

They all know fine well if Scotland vote by majority to stay in and England by majority to leave another referendum is almost inevitable. Drag a country against its will out of the EU and then not allow it a vote on independence? That's asking for Braveheart 2.0.

I mean that only goes to show why Scottish people hate Westminster as much as they do. We should be able to make massive decisions like this ourselves but as you put it "good luck on the big Daddy down south allowing you guys to do it".

A second referendum isn't current SNP policy. They took it out of their manifesto.

Also, getting a bit tired of statements like this:

We'll see!

I think the bigger reason for the referendum is the fact our country can vote in favour of something but because England is bigger their vote can make ours "pointless".

If you're independent no other country can nuke your vote. Most of us up here simply want to be in charge of our country ourselves and not have Westminster get the last say. I think that was apparent with the SNP landslide, even after the country voted NO to independence.

We literally just had a referendum on this, and leave lost. Stop speaking on behalf of "most" Scots and ignoring those who voted to stay in the UK.

The Scottish Parliament is pretty much in charge of everything in Scotland anyway - education, health, police, tax...

 

[Linkified]

The issue of economic success and wealth isn't relevant when it comes to declaring independence or not, it's about nationalism and patriotism. Do you think the Irish for one second ever wished to rejoin the UK even in the midst of poverty? Of course not. If there was a convincing economic case for the US to be returned to the UK how many Americans do you honestly think would agree to this. With the no vote in the Indy referendum the Scots basically accepted they weren't a nation but rather a mere province of Britain. No matter how wealthy we could potentially be under London rule I would never, ever accept a return to British rule.

Countries don't split away from other countries because of monetary issues, they do so because of a distinct identity of their own.

Countries don't split for monetary issues but if Scotland was to split. How would they make up the shortfall of cash coming from Westminster? Would they be able to survive with limited assets? Would they go bankrupt?

 

[Mac@NeoGAF]

If people up here vote for another referendum due to the EU vote the referendum will go ahead.

Other than the courts stopping it, like the Spanish government has stopped Catalonia on numerous occasions from holding a referendum on independence, no one will physically stop it from happening, its just that Westminster will make it clear to the SNP that it will not be a recognised result and nothing will come of it.

It will then be up to the SNP to decide whether they have the balls to call a UDI, if they do, Scotland will be in deep shit.

 

[Audioboxer]

A second referendum isn't current SNP policy. They took it out of their manifesto.

Also, getting a bit tired of statements like this:



We literally just had a referendum on this, and leave lost. Stop speaking on behalf of "most" Scots and ignoring those who voted to stay in the UK.

The Scottish Parliament is pretty much in charge of everything in Scotland anyway - education, health, police, tax...

Not ignoring anyone, just building off the general election results and disdain for the vow when discussing Westminster at large.

All of this referendum malarky is hypothetical around the EU vote. It's got nothing to do with the previous one to stay in the UK but about the only option left to Scots if they want to stay in the EU but the rest of the UK votes out.

 

[Spaghetti]

It's a restriction on an individual's right to work as many hours as they want, and on employers rights. It's EU interference with the British free market, in other words.

It didn't help that it's introduction was controversial either. Back in 1993, when the working time directive was introduced, the UK voted against it in the Council of Ministers, and refused to implement it on the basis that it was social legislation, and the UK had an opt-out from that since Maastricht in 1992. But the EU Commission instead claimed that it was based on health and safety laws, which the UK didn't have an opt-out over, so we had to abide by it. The UK lost the court case over it too.

R.E: individual right to work as many hours as they want.

The cap is very close to 50 hours. Who in the world would want a 50 hour working week with 10 hour shifts while working five days a week? If someone needs a 50 hour working week, the issue is clearly not with how many hours they're working, but instead with either the financial outgoings of the individual or a poor wage that does not allow them to have a proper work/life balance.

I'm not sure how this infringes on employer rights either, unless you're a hard-liner on the free market who expects employers and individuals to act responsibly in setting their hours.

Edit: I should also say, at least a quarter of employees in the UK are dissatisfied with their work/life balance. Uncapping workable hours might lead to some employers asking for more than what is reasonable, and with the current Government's union-busting legislation incoming it could disrupt collective bargaining powers enough to make employees have little choice other than to comply.

 

[Ether_Snake]

Scotland won't vote to go independent if the UK leaves the EU. People will be told it will cause complications with the UK that aren't worth it, but that wouldn't have been there if both were still in the EU.

 

[Beefy]

Not ignoring anyone, just building off the general election results and disdain for the vow when discussing Westminster at large.

All of this referendum malarky is hypothetical around the EU vote. It's got nothing to do with the previous one to stay in the UK but about the only option left to Scots if they want to stay in the EU but the rest of the UK votes out.

Not all Scots do though. Alot of my family are voting out.

 

[Spaghetti]

And further to my last comment, Japan is a perfect example of what harm a poor work/life balance can do personally and nationally, and how employers and corporate structure can indeed put pressure on the employee to do more than they should have to.

 

[SporeCrawler]

So what is everyone voting?

I am on the fence.

any UK citizen, please vote that UK will go out of the EU. Im serious here.

That has come at the expense of countries like Greece though. The Euro has been a benefit to Germany and possibly France, but it's arguable if other countries have really benefited from it long term.

The general problem with greece is that it was not in a state to join the EU currency when they did and got a lot of credit that they normally would not have been able to get. You could argue that Greece has been fucked but on the other hand they have profited a lot at the beginning and now they are just seeing the consequences as they need to pay their debts back.

I am all for helping the greek state to go to a growth path again but saying that greece has not profited at all is really a one sided view.

But for that to work it needs to be an all or nothing approach from Day one. Everything needs to be the same in every country. The current gradual/half-hearted approach by the EU though is taking far too long and tied up in far too much red tape. You've also got the issue of the people living in those countries having little to no say on which powers are given away and how new powers from the EU are determined or implemented.

hey Id love it if GB just goes out and the rest of europe grows closer.

Sorry, but those cities don't even begin to approach London when it comes to their global importance, especially in the financial markets.

yes but that doesnt mean that those cities are in anyway inferior and should be discriminated by EU law just because GB wants to solidify their position. Any city can loose its importance over time. In the 18th century London was certainly more important than New York, now its not. London benefits a lot from its vicinity to the european market (which is a bigger market than UK alone). If London is no longer benefiting from the freedom of capital under the EU laws and restrictions apply (for example contingency regulations or tariff regulations if money is shifted over to London or Vice versa) a lot of capital will shift away.

And also London is not the Whole UK. There are a lot of farmers that are receiving subsidies from the EU (like every farmer in Europe) and many of them will not be able to sustain unless the GB Government pays those subsidies instead.

 

[Dingens]

[...]

And like it or not, London is pretty much the most important city not just in the EU, but on the face of the Earth, when it comes to finances. People like to moan that London gets special treatment, but it needs it. Like it or not, London is a massive benefit for both the UK and the EU. It's essentially a gateway in and out of Europe for the financial world.


[...]

It's nice to want things. Doesn't mean that we as a society have to grant their wishes. Especially not if they are as hurtful (not only to society but to the world as a whole) as they are.
They are not beneficial to you or anyone else, only to themselves. They are not going paying your bills (unless you work there), they are not paying for your infrastructure or your education. They are bleeding you dry and you seem somehow happy about that

 

[Oriel]

Lol..there are reasons for the Scots to vote for independence, but over the EU?, makes no sense.

Over 70% of Scottish exports go to the rUK.

If you think leaving the UK, then joining the EU (if they'll even have you, years down the road) will help Scottish business and jobs, you really don't know how things work.

Again, to use Ireland as an example when we broke away from Britain most of our exports went to Britain and to this day may exports (though not as much) still go to the UK. If Britain leaves the EU then they'll still be part of the EU free trade area known as the EEA. Scotland leaving the UK would also mean they're part of the EEA. Tariffs and customs posts aren't going to appear on the Scottish-English border, ever. Not unless a severe bout of insanity took hold in London and they decided to teach the Jocks a lesson and shut down the border.

That's because you look at the UK through the prism of colonial conquest.

Scotland has never been a colony.

Yeah, that's not exactly true. When the Act of Union was signed in 1707 rioting broke out in Scottish cities against the move. Later on mass Highland clearances were carried out that emptied the region of rebellious Jacobite leaning clans. The UK was, and still is very much an English led project.

Countries don't split for monetary issues but if Scotland was to split. How would they make up the shortfall of cash coming from Westminster? Would they be able to survive with limited assets? Would they go bankrupt?

Given that Scotland is a net contributor to the UK Treasury then no, probably not. Even so, any self-respecting people who make decisions on their nation's future based solely on financial considerations really don't deserve to call themselves a distinct people anyway. The Act of Union was brought about by Scottish bankruptcy due to the collapse of the Darien venture but then many countries go bankrupt and don't immediately allow themselves to be annexed to their larger neighbour.

 

[Lagamorph]

It's nice to want things. Doesn't mean that we as a society have to grant their wishes. Especially not if they are as hurtful (not only to society but to the world as a whole) as they are.
They are not beneficial to you or anyone else, only to themselves. They are not going paying your bills (unless you work there), they are not paying for your infrastructure or your education. They are bleeding you dry and you seem somehow happy about that

Sorry, but I have no idea who the 'they' you're talking about are supposed to be.

 

[Matt_]

Boris backing brexit

 

[Jezbollah]

I wonder if we'll see Boris, Farage and Galloway sharing the stage together..

 

[liquidtmd]

Smart move from Dave. The sooner the better from the point of view of anyone wanting "remain" to win.

If it was held in 2017 I'd be pretty confident in leave winning. But June this year I'd put at about 50/50. It's gonna be close.

Yup. I'd say it's going to be closer than the 55 / 45 Scots outcome thats for sure. I'd even go as close to say 51/49