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Fighting Game Headquarters |eSports| 4444 Life

Shouta

Shouta

Member
The entire scene is stagnant and it's not just because of SFV, IMO. It certainly doesn't help that the game plays like shit online and that it rules the roost. However, he core problem is that the event circuit as a whole hasn't been moving in any real direction and there hasn't been much done to bring the potential players and games out and into the limelight. SFV has lost quite a bit of its luster and so we're just left with the same core groups of folks we've had for a couple of years now. It's really just routine at this point.
 
M

mbpm1

Member
Shouta said:
The entire scene is stagnant and it's not just because of SFV, IMO. It certainly doesn't help that the game plays like shit online and that it rules the roost. However, he core problem is that the event circuit as a whole hasn't been moving in any real direction and there hasn't been much done to bring the potential players and games out and into the limelight. SFV has lost quite a bit of its luster and so we're just left with the same core groups of folks we've had for a couple of years now. It's really just routine at this point.
Click to expand...
But ANBU Punk tho

da yung blood
 
N

Nuu

Banned
Dahbomb said:
As far as these YoY drops in viewership for SFV is concerned... this is to be expected because a year ago SFV was a newly released game. There is always going to be the new game hype. We won't have 5K entrants for SFV either at EVO.
Click to expand...

While true, if a game has staying power it often doesn't drop that much. Guilty Gear only lost a few entrants (I believe in the single digits) Evo 2016 compared to Evo 2015.

Dahbomb said:
Sums about SFV just about right.
Click to expand...

That sums up almost the entire gaming industry that gets into that business.
 
K

Kadey

Mrs. Harvey
It's ironic that streaming is much easier to do these days but yet players and personalities aren't doing personal streams as much anymore. We need more stuff like FGTV of old and something similar to the old TS house streams. Those streams helped get people into the FGC. Max is doing his part but it shouldn't be him alone.

Justin and PR Rog were streaming Ultra this week for long periods. They were laughing, giggling and having fun like times of old.
 
K

Kumubou

Member
Nuu said:
While true, if a game has staying power it often doesn't drop that much. Guilty Gear only lost a few entrants (I believe in the single digits) Evo 2016 compared to Evo 2015.
Click to expand...
Ideally, you want growth -- and that's something every successful competitive videogame has seen. What you are describing is more of a plateau, where there are barely enough new players to keep pace with churn (like GG or SSBM right now)... but I don't think SFV will achieve even that.
 
D

Dahbomb

Member
I think the only way for fighting games to really grow is to have continual updates like KI did. SF4 kept growing because of those updates and Marvel 3 actually grew with UMVC3. I think that's why s2 of SFV is under fire, it's because people expected an expansion type update when what we got was something most games release like 4-5 times a year (a character, some stages and balance changes). The full scope of season 2 isn't going to be out until the end of the CPT.

You look at how DOTA has survived and grew all this time.. it is about changing up regularly. Ice Frog would add balance changes and new content/features constantly. He never stopped and still does it to DOTA 2 which got some massive changes recently despite being polished to a diamond. That's how you keep the playerbase interested and new people coming in because every time you change the game drastically you create an entry point for new players. It's not a real one, it's psychological but it's effective.
 
N

Nuu

Banned
Dahbomb said:
I think the only way for fighting games to really grow is to have continual updates like KI did. SF4 kept growing because of those updates and Marvel 3 actually grew with UMVC3. I think that's why s2 of SFV is under fire, it's because people expected an expansion type update when what we got was something most games release like 4-5 times a year (a character, some stages and balance changes). The full scope of season 2 isn't going to be out until the end of the CPT.

You look at how DOTA has survived and grew all this time.. it is about changing up regularly. Ice Frog would add balance changes and new content/features constantly. He never stopped and still does it to DOTA 2 which got some massive changes recently despite being polished to a diamond. That's how you keep the playerbase interested and new people coming in because every time you change the game drastically you create an entry point for new players. It's not a real one, it's psychological but it's effective.
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This does make sense. Skullgirls keeps growing and uses the PC update model. Guilty Gear has maintained stable with general growth and has annual updates.

Kumubou said:
Ideally, you want growth -- and that's something every successful competitive videogame has seen. What you are describing is more of a plateau, where there are barely enough new players to keep pace with churn (like GG or SSBM right now)... but I don't think SFV will achieve even that.
Click to expand...

I believe Guilty Gear as a whole has grown YoY tournament wise but I'm not sure.
 
N

Numb

Member
Fighting games do update it's just that they are too niche sometimes.
KI and Skullgirls have had fantastic support and even tho it helped alot it never blew up.
NRS got Komplete versions less than a year in then they rotate to MK/Injutass. Strong IPs tho
ASW cant help themselves either even if the new hotness is Japan exclusive first.
People treat them like new games but I never have. Just a new season.
Whatever DOA does. Still getting some characters. Fashion money too strong.

SF4 was an anomaly in the FGC.
And Marvel...Is Marvel
The thing wasn't getting any fixes for years and it was still crushing it

Their growth is there but Dota and others play different
 
Tizoc

Tizoc

Member
FadedRevolution said:
How often does DOTA and LoL get updated?
Click to expand...

DOTA gets an update every other day.
LoL updates every 2 weeks.

Various SNK games match footage
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MYuCjsEUr3E
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7a26z8vAjcQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0QFyrg7y-No&t=190s

Persona 4 AU matches
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KGZsmz3P-10

2 Hours of Puyo Puyo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hykk35lsdSU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KTJlzRg0YyA

90 mins. of Hokuto no Ken
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jaZg3MeWQpY

2 Hours of Sengoku Enbu
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kj_lNjtXsbE

2+ Hours of BlazBlue
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cyFZZqbbPLE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0AO2f6J7W_o
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-urUjN83u9E
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tIVt71F0UIM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4UJD9luUEpE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nDDj26Dapgg

6+ Hours of Melty Blood
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cJ0BPYUUq8k
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ELsatcnJvs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NT2BRzjfmWI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ctoxBxpszj8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=swUST2aJrYc

90 mins. of Guilty Gear Xrd R
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZsOA4iRl_Ug
 
D

Dahbomb

Member
FadedRevolution said:
How often does DOTA and LoL get updated?
Click to expand...
What SFV considers as Season 2 would be one of the 3/4 big patches in the year that LoL/DOTA does. And that's being conservative on the estimates because when DOTA 2 was new it was getting big patches monthly.

These games also have way more smaller patches coming in frequently that are like cosmetics, events, QoL changes, bug fixes that have nothing to do with balancing.

In terms of support and service provided along with bang for buck... it's not even in the same stratosphere.
 
D

Dlent

Member
I don't know if constant developer support is guaranteed to keep people interested in the competitive scene. Seems like it's the opposite with NRS games, where they're very popular for the first couple of months and then plummet until an entirely new game is released.
 
D

Dahbomb

Member
Dlent said:
I don't know if constant developer support is guaranteed to keep people interested in the competitive scene. Seems like it's the opposite with NRS games, where they're very popular for the first couple of months and then plummet until an entirely new game is released.
Click to expand...
Feels like MKX was reasonably popular for quite a while. The NRS cycle is unfortunate but if they increased the gap in between the games then they could probably give even more post release content to the game.
 
N

NEO0MJ

Member
Professor Beef said:
The FGC can't even agree on how they feel about continual patches. Some people like them, others keep shouting "let the game rock."
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If you patch the game enough they'll learn to accept and maybe even like it, wondering if this is the patch that fixes their main. NR fans stopped complaining about them after all.
 
H

Huw_Dawson

Member
"Let the game rock" is an argument that makes no real sense. Every other major competitive game receives big balance changes to keep the meta alive and make the game deeper.

The issue with SFV is that it was made by and maintained by what appears to have been a skeleton team. We got Capcom'd again, same as SFxT.

At this point I'm expecting no upgrades to the game at all beyond rounding out S2 content, then the game quietly gets abandoned by the devs. At which point I'd half expect the SF community to go back to SF4.
 
H

Huw_Dawson

Member
IMO the issue with NRS patching is that NRS games don't stop being NRS games by patching them. The characters with the best pressure are always going to be the best characters. It's the nature of the dial-a-string gameplay. If you like forcing your opponent to block whilst you mix them up to death, then play NRS games...

Capcom's fighters have big neutral games, so patching characters can have big impacts on the overall meta.

If I made SF6, I'd do the obvious and have a living development with constant fan engagement and test builds for the next drop of content. I'd focus on making the core game really good and have great UX.

SFV doesn't even have functioning in-game voice chat ffs. It's the running joke of the community - it's SFxT but we don't have a better game to fall back on.

EDIT: Hell, I just sat through the SFV credits to check my assumption.

There was no UX consultant on board for SFV. In fact, there is a dearth of staff all around. The core Capcom team makes up only a minority of development staff, with DIMPS doing the heavy lifting and a shed-tonne of external artists working on Story Mode.

Can't think why SFV was in such a state when it was a collaboration between two companies to make two products, with duplicated staff, a small budget and strict timelines...
 
Z

ZeroTheShadow

Member
Huw_Dawson said:
"Let the game rock" is an argument that makes no real sense. Every other major competitive game receives big balance changes to keep the meta alive and make the game deeper.
Click to expand...

Wrong. The reason you let the game rock is cause it takes years to actually know what really needs fixing, not days, not months. SFV is a perfect example of this. Nash by the end of S1 was figured out & was way less of a threat than before. It took nearly a year but people figured it out but Capcom fuckin jumped the gun & nerfed him & he's considered one of the worst now.
Also balance patches never add more depth. You don't add core mechanics in balance patches. I dunno where you get these ideas from.
 
H

Huw_Dawson

Member
ZeroTheShadow said:
Also balance patches never add more depth. You don't add core mechanics in balance patches. I dunno where you get these ideas from.
Click to expand...

SFxT -> v2013 is a great example of a game's depth (and quality) being improved substantially via a balance patch.

Skullgirls also has prospered from an excellent dev doing regular balance patches (which often dramatically change the game).

I really disagree with "no, the community just isn't good enough to show off the real meta!" as the counter-argument for devs regularly reviewing the meta. It requires you to believe that the devs don't have a good idea about how their game is played. A good dev would be investigating the game, listening to feedback and testing changes with the community. From what we've seen with Capcom, they're not very good at this right now. Capcom patching badly does not mean balance patches are a bad thing.

Letting the game rock will cause players to drop your game, because you're not working to solve their problems. It's the total opposite idea to Games as a Service.
 
N

Nuu

Banned
ZeroTheShadow said:
Wrong. The reason you let the game rock is cause it takes years to actually know what really needs fixing, not days, not months. SFV is a perfect example of this. Nash by the end of S1 was figured out & was way less of a threat than before. It took nearly a year but people figured it out but Capcom fuckin jumped the gun & nerfed him & he's considered one of the worst now.
Also balance patches never add more depth. You don't add core mechanics in balance patches. I dunno where you get these ideas from.
Click to expand...

Marvel 3 is also a good example. You're starting to see people playing Chun Li and even Phoenix Wright in tournaments. While Zero, who is still great, is not as common as he once was.
 
L

Line_HTX

Member
So we're circling back to SFV Season 2 was shit and made things worse and by extension, made the scene and other game scenes worse off, I take it?
 
B

BadWolf

Member
Anne said:
Why should I watch a game I think is shit(like it or not SFV runs the scene), with the same old people and tournaments that aren't getting more exciting, and then go play games with unacceptable infrastructure. Why do I care about these guys I never see really stream or interact that much? Hell what would they stream? Worthless fighting game netplay? lol
Click to expand...

The issue for me with CapCup is that the entire set up just makes the finale feel irrelevant.

Last year there were so many tournaments and so many of the international players were traveling all over the place that throughout the year we saw them play endlessly, the matches just didn't feel special anymore because we saw these players playing against each other over and over again.

When the finale rolls around it was just the same exact faces playing against each other for the nth time, just for more money. I really found it difficult to care.

In contrast what made the recent KOFXIV championship feel special is that most of the players were the best from their respective regions but in most cases we actually had never seen them play against each other before. Literally just about anyone could have won. Freaking Xiaohai of all people came in 3rd. And then in a post party tournament the guy who came 5th took out both Xiaohai and M' (the Japanese player who took 1st place) single single-handedly.

At the very least I think Capcom should put up some rules for 'region locking' so that way the same sponsored players don't have the advantage of traveling all over the place to qualify. Otherwise it becomes not so much about skill advantage but sponsor advantage.
 
F

Fancolors

Member
SFV Season 2 characters look very promising!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BEccqfqNi1o

tumblr_ol17iwsekb1rydrgvo2_500.gif

tumblr_ol17iwsekb1rydrgvo4_r1_500.gif
 
C

Cosmo Clock 21

Banned
BadWolf said:
The issue for me with CapCup is that the entire set up just makes the finale feel irrelevant.

Last year there were so many tournaments and so many of the international players were traveling all over the place that throughout the year we saw them play endlessly, the matches just didn't feel special anymore because we saw these players playing against each other over and over again.

When the finale rolls around it was just the same exact faces playing against each other for the nth time, just for more money. I really found it difficult to care.

In contrast what made the recent KOFXIV championship feel special is that most of the players were the best from their respective regions but in most cases we actually had never seen them play against each other before. Literally just about anyone could have won. Freaking Xiaohai of all people came in 3rd. And then in a post party tournament the guy who came 5th took out both Xiaohai and M' (the Japanese player who took 1st place) single single-handedly.

At the very least I think Capcom should put up some rules for 'region locking' so that way the same sponsored players don't have the advantage of traveling all over the place to qualify. Otherwise it becomes not so much about skill advantage but sponsor advantage.
Click to expand...
I hate to bring up this analogy again because I use it way too much, but tennis has the same "problem" and it does not have these issues.
 
D

Dahbomb

Member
Tennis has nowhere near the same amount of events that CPT has. That's the main issue here, there are just too many CPT events that players are flying over to. Not only that but having a high amount of CPT events kinda stomps on the smaller grassroots events. We didn't have many CMs last year specifically because there was scheduling conflicts with CPT events and I am sure other events had a similar issue.

When it comes to balancing, yeah fighting games are different from MOBAs/shooters/card games because the meta takes much longer to figure out. It takes longer for players to master their characters and then it takes even longer for other players to master the counter against it. I think SFV was a bad example because it is very clear that Capcom took data from E3 instead of Capcom Cup cut off time for their balancing. That's why Nash and Ryu got gutted, when any regular player knew by the time CPT finished that they weren't that godlike. So that was Capcom's mistake of balancing based on outdated data.

Fighting games can really only sustain two major balance patches a year aside from egregious problems that are obvious from day 1 like what happened with KOF 14 or bugs/glitches. And as the game becomes more developed there is less need to make drastic changes. And timing is key too, you want your balance patches out well before major tournaments. At least SFV got that right, unlike MK9/Injustice getting patches the week of a big tournament.

But another big issue is that fighting games don't have as many PTRs/betas. We have location tests for some arcade fighters but that's outdated in today's era and I don't trust pro opinions player a few hours a day giving biased opinions about the characters of their choice. There should be more wide scale balancing of fighting games before release so that the game comes out well enough. SFV tried to do this but their beta was already plagued with so many technical issues. Injustice 2 beta seems to be going much better but without a full roster it is difficult to give constructive feedback on balancing, an issue that was relevant with Marvel 3 and UMVC3 pre release testing. How were we to know that Wolverine woukd be godlike with the Akuma Tatsu assist or anything regarding Phoenix?
 
D

Dahbomb

Member
That's still less tournaments than last year's CPT!

57 Tennis ATP events in the men's singles versus 74 CPT events last year.
 
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