Support NeoGAF

[Thomasorus]

Capcom didn't achieve a 2 million fighting game sales figure since 2011. Almost all games since UMVC3 sold between 1.2 million and 1.7. Basically, that may be the current amount of people that cares about Capcom fighting games and so SF5 sales aren't very surprising.

I like what Anne and Dahbomb said about not giving a fuck and how fighting games are lagging compared to other games (even if I think some are doing a good job) but I also think the problem lies in the roster. Capcom is lagging in the roster department more than anything else.

SF5 came in 2016 but when you look at it, it feels like a game from 2013/2014 to me. It's like they prepared everything in 2013/2014 then a lot happened. Now people want a more diverse cast, a better representation of women, men and minorities. MKX understood this very well (the heroes a white woman, a black woman and two asian guys). Tekken 7 understands this too. Even KOF14 is trying different things.

And SF5 comes out and... Laura. Rashid. Fang. Necali is ok but his story sucks. Ryu is still a hobo (and the hero, like WTF) that you give a drive only when you have an evil dictator to kill. Some redesigns are great and some characters are really interesting but that's not much.

When you see how diverse and successful the cast of Overwatch is, and you learn that OW character designer is actually a Capcom fan, it hurts. I really like Akuma in SF5 but when I saw Kolin, again a blonde white girl femme fatale, I really thought they didn't learn at all.

 

[Dahbomb]

I still definitely care a lot about fighting games otherwise I would not be here talking up a storm. If I didn't care then I would be in some other thread right now.

 

[mbpm1]

I hate to bring up this analogy again because I use it way too much, but tennis has the same "problem" and it does not have these issues.

Tennis Fighter V

 

[Perro]

How will Tekken save the FGC exactly?

 

[pizzacat]

Capcom didn't achieve a 2 million fighting game sales figure since 2011. Almost all games since UMVC3 sold between 1.2 million and 1.7. Basically, that may be the current amount of people that cares about Capcom fighting games and so SF5 sales aren't very surprising.

I like what Anne and Dahbomb said about not giving a fuck and how fighting games are lagging compared to other games (even if I think some are doing a good job) but I also think the problem lies in the roster. Capcom is lagging in the roster department more than anything else.

SF5 came in 2016 but when you look at it, it feels like a game from 2013/2014 to me. It's like they prepared everything in 2013/2014 then a lot happened. Now people want a more diverse cast, a better representation of women, men and minorities. MKX understood this very well (the heroes a white woman, a black woman and two asian guys). Tekken 7 understands this too. Even KOF14 is trying different things.

And SF5 comes out and... Laura. Rashid. Fang. Necali is ok but his story sucks. Ryu is still a hobo (and the hero, like WTF) that you give a drive only when you have an evil dictator to kill. Some redesigns are great and some characters are really interesting but that's not much.

When you see how diverse and successful the cast of Overwatch is, and you learn that OW character designer is actually a Capcom fan, it hurts. I really like Akuma in SF5 but when I saw Kolin, again a blonde white girl femme fatale, I really thought they didn't learn at all.

hey theyre learning! They retconned urien to just being brown now (or was white complexion in 3s a disguise and brown urien is the real urien? I really don't know)

 

[Sayad]

The issue for me with CapCup is that the entire set up just makes the finale feel irrelevant.

Last year there were so many tournaments and so many of the international players were traveling all over the place that throughout the year we saw them play endlessly, the matches just didn't feel special anymore because we saw these players playing against each other over and over again.

This was totally not an issue for me in SFV, SFIV or most games where you have a big pool of high level competition. It might be there for Melee but the end season of CC has a big enough viable competitors to there always be fresh match ups near the finals!

hey theyre learning! They retconned urien to just being brown now (or was white complexion in 3s a disguise and brown urien is the real urien? I really don't know)

He wasn't exactly white, the in game art showed him as brownish even in the suit.

I assume his sprites were just bleached more at the start of the round to make the effect of his skin color changing more visible.

 

[Dahbomb]

How will Tekken save the FGC exactly?

It's not. Saying Tekken will save the FGC is bordering on random twitch meme status in terms of absurdity.

I WISH Tekken was the top played fighting game in the US and headlines EVO with 6K entrants. That's just a pipe dream at this point.

 

[CountBlack]

Not just PSX. Kumubou took a work day off, drove all the way from Arizona to Santa Ana (6+ hour road trip) to watch the first day too in person. I actually live in Socal, and I wouldn't take a day off to watch as much SFV than Kumubou did that weekend.

kumu......................

 

[Anne]

It is entirely possible for a healthy meta to develop that deepens over time while the devs still make changes to the game on a regular basis. Fighting games aren't some magical exception to what the rest of the industry has taught us about that.

I think more people don't like the idea because a competent team hasn't actually done this well with Killer Instinct S2 onward being like the only exception. It's easy to not like the idea when the people you see doing balancing just regularly misunderstand what is actually happening in the game.

Like the SFV S2 thing had /nothing/ to do with the fact the game got patched. If anything it got patched at least 6 months too slow. Just whatever decisions Capcom made about changes in that patch are baffling.

I find SFV S2 extra baffling because I do respect Combofiend and I figured he'd play a big role in it. Idk if he just fucked up or if Japan severely overrided his input.

 

[irfaanator]

kumu......................

and you talking shit about him. smh.

A patch every six months to a year is fine with me. I guess damage reductions/buffs are fine as quick adjustments but adding moves/removing moves like NRS does, just doesnt feel great. Fighting games have that aspect in them that other games dont. The interactions between characters/players comes down to how well they know their moves/the other characters moves so when those keep getting changed and new ones come in, plus learning matchups for 16-20 other fighters, it just becomes an exercise in futility. Why learn when 3 months down the line the matchup/character is just probably going to change either due to "playerbase" or devs perceived weakness or strength

 

[mbpm1]

I find SFV S2 extra baffling because I do respect Combofiend and I figured he'd play a big role in it. Idk if he just fucked up or if Japan severely overrided his input.

Not sure how much role Capcom US really plays in all this tbh. It's been confusing like that for a while it feels

 

[pizzacat]

This was totally not an issue for me in SFV, SFIV or most games where you have a big pool of high level competition. It might be there for Melee but the end season of CC has a big enough viable competitors to there always be fresh match ups near the finals!


He wasn't exactly white, the in game art showed him as brownish even in the suit.
I assume his sprites were just bleached more at the start of the round to make the effect of his skin color changing more visible.

Oh man I completely missed that and I like that ending (that's the "THE ERA OF URIEN STARTS TODAY" ending right?)

 

[Anne]

Not sure how much role Capcom US really plays in all this tbh. It's been confusing like that for a while it feels

Yeah. Idk man, like I know Capcom has good dudes like that with access to lots of data and player feedback, and then they just don't use it? They don't have much going for them, and they don't even use what they do have. Say what you will about other devs, hell even outright disagree with the decisions they make too, but at least some show signs of attempting to use resources for things like this.

Reeks of Japanese Game Dev tbh. Shit don't work for a competitive game.

 

[Dahbomb]

I find SFV S2 extra baffling because I do respect Combofiend and I figured he'd play a big role in it. Idk if he just fucked up or if Japan severely overrided his input.

I think people are putting the blame on Woshige as he specifically stated before hand that he didn't like DP reversals and then they were taken out in S2.

https://youtu.be/cCr5mZFI-50


I think Combofiend has pretty much been moved to Marvel Infinite at this point.

 

[Anne]

Woshige balances games about as well as he counts.

 

[pizzacat]

If we playing the theory game then that Woshige destroying sf for gg is a pretty good one

 

[Tripon]

Are you telling me that theory fighter went from balance patches to actual behind the scene conspiracy theories on game development?

 

[Skilletor]

I think people are putting the blame on Woshige as he specifically stated before hand that he didn't like DP reversals and then they were taken out in S2.

https://youtu.be/cCr5mZFI-50


I think Combofiend has pretty much been moved to Marvel Infinite at this point.

Yeah, there was that one interview with the capcom and a marvel dude and the interviewer asked, "How are you going to make sure it's crazy and has combos like Marvel," and the two looked at each other and were both like, "Combofiend." at the same time.

I'm excited for Marvel.

Woshige plays Milia, so to him setplay is probably just how he thinks everything should play. It shows in the S2 changes when they're trying to increase the neutral game and only make more setplay. Woshige is probably like, "That's the same thing."

 

[irfaanator]

Yeah. Idk man, like I know Capcom has good dudes like that with access to lots of data and player feedback, and then they just don't use it? They don't have much going for them, and they don't even use what they do have. Say what you will about other devs, hell even outright disagree with the decisions they make too, but at least some show signs of attempting to use resources for things like this.

Reeks of Japanese Game Dev tbh. Shit don't work for a competitive game.

Im still waiting on a good UI/settings, but who am I kidding, theyll never implement a function one

 

[Sayad]

Not sure how much role Capcom US really plays in all this tbh. It's been confusing like that for a while it feels

Think Capcom USA role is only having some producers on the game, Combo might have had some inputs at the start, but he's probably more involved with MvCI now. Capcom USA role is basically saying "we want this and this and this" and it's up to Capcom Japan to fuck shit up.

 

[Anne]

It probably has less to do with Millia and mroe to do with his history with GG/ASW in general. In those games you don't get good reversals without meter. There are a lot of games like that actually. SF has been a bit of an exception for awhile, but the reasoning why it stayed an exception makes sense with how SF works.

 

[pizzacat]

Are you telling me that theory fighter went from balance patches to actual behind the scene conspiracy theories on game development?

You missed it when it was about stealing money from children

 

[CurlyW]

Tennis is long overdue for a balance patch

 

[BadWolf]

I think people are putting the blame on Woshige as he specifically stated before hand that he didn't like DP reversals and then they were taken out in S2.

https://youtu.be/cCr5mZFI-50


I think Combofiend has pretty much been moved to Marvel Infinite at this point.

Tbh from day 1 I didn't believe they'd give simple tournament players like Combofiend and Woshige all that much pull, and still kinda don't.

They probably have some input but the overall direction is probably with the JP team and someone with more experience.

 

[Tripon]

Tbh from day 1 I didn't believe they'd give simple tournament players like Combofiend and Woshige all that much pull, and still kinda don't.

They probably have some input but the overall direction is probably with the JP team and someone with more experience.

Woshige is the battle director on SFV. They better make sure they take his input, otherwise, why have him in that position?

 

[BadWolf]

Woshige is the battle director on SFV. They better make sure they take his input, otherwise, why have him in that position?

Don't know but it makes zero sense to put someone of his experience in that position.

Capcom have their own devs and the backing of Dimps, both with Capcom and SNK staff with years and years of experience, and they need the help of some GG player for a mainline numbered SF?

 

[Tripon]

Don't know but it makes zero sense to put someone of his experience in that position.

Capcom have their own devs and the backing of Dimps, both with Capcom and SNK staff with years and years of experience, and they need the help of some GG player for a mainline numbered SF?

Woshige was a Capcom employee since high school and was a tester among on SFIV, and other games.

He would have been at Capcom for 8 or so years when he was promoted to battle director.

 

[BadWolf]

Woshige was a Capcom employee since high school and was a tester among other games on SFIV.

He would have been at Capcom for 8 or so years when he was promoted to battle director.

Ah okay, my bad.

Still makes little sense with the experienced staff they have but guess they may have given him a chance after all these years.

 

[Anne]

Tbh most of the longer experienced devs shouldn't be a battle director. You want those guys around to think about certain things, but you want the person looking at current comp play to be experienced with other recent things. The newer guy is going to understand the wants of current players and things that are happening way better. Older dudes will know a lot more abstract design stuff to help guide and hammer things out.

Idk, the biggest criticism hitting JP devs these days is they are too stuck in old design problems and refuse to adapt. Don't see hwy you'd want those people being the driving force of a modern competitive game.

 

[NEO0MJ]

Yeah. Idk man, like I know Capcom has good dudes like that with access to lots of data and player feedback, and then they just don't use it? They don't have much going for them, and they don't even use what they do have. Say what you will about other devs, hell even outright disagree with the decisions they make too, but at least some show signs of attempting to use resources for things like this.

Reeks of Japanese Game Dev tbh. Shit don't work for a competitive game.

So similar to the problem Nintendo has. Japanese publishers need to give their western branches more say in how the company overall should operate, because their console and arcade efforts won't last long at their home turf and the competitive gaming scene is changing big time outside of it.

 

[BadWolf]

Tbh most of the longer experienced devs shouldn't be a battle director. You want those guys around to think about certain things, but you want the person looking at current comp play to be experienced with other recent things. The newer guy is going to understand the wants of current players and things that are happening way better. Older dudes will know a lot more abstract design stuff to help guide and hammer things out.

Idk, the biggest criticism hitting JP devs these days is they are too stuck in old design problems and refuse to adapt. Don't see hwy you'd want those people being the driving force of a modern competitive game.

Dunno, I was pretty damn psyched to hear when SNK brought a whole bunch of the oldschool SNK devs to work on XIV and hired Neo_G to have major input as well.

Could be just me but I'd rather it be guys like this than someone that is wet behind the ears.

Wasn't Neo_G the battle director of UMVC3? Wouldn't you rather it be someone like him than a Combofiend?

 

[Sayad]

So similar to the problem Nintendo has. Japanese publishers need to give their western branches more say in how the company overall should operate, because their console and arcade efforts won't last long at their home turf and the competitive gaming scene is changing big time outside of it.

Capcom is doing that with MvCI(and did with SFV to an extent), the game's producers are from Capcom USA, that's where the 2v2 and no assists came from.

 

[Anne]

Dunno, I was pretty damn psyched to hear when SNK brought a whole bunch of the oldschool SNK devs to work on XIV and hired Neo_G to have major input as well.

Could be just me but I'd rather it be guys like this than someone that is wet behind the ears.

Wasn't Neo_G the battle director of UMVC3? Wouldn't you rather it be someone like him that a Combofiend?

I mean, those guy did a good job and bring things to the table newer people can't. Specifically they have a lot of experience with just making interesting and outright fun games.

At the same time, you can see where they didn't really understand the types of things modern competitive players would do since things have been mad wonky for a bit.

Game design just kind of works like that. Older dudes know how to do some things but they're gonna be out of touch with what modern players are doing. Newer devs probably missed out on lessons and XP about just making games appealing (love you Mike Z but this is you) while being able to at least make the game work when skilled people touch it. Now you get the guys that made MVC2 so appealing and just good feeling to play, then you let guys like Mike or Combo or Woshige come in and do some tuning.

 

[mbpm1]

It probably has less to do with Millia and mroe to do with his history with GG/ASW in general. In those games you don't get good reversals without meter. There are a lot of games like that actually. SF has been a bit of an exception for awhile, but the reasoning why it stayed an exception makes sense with how SF works.

Don't they have more defensive options in GG tho

 

[Tripon]

BTW, I won my avatar bet with Zissou, one full year of no F2P SFV. But did I really win?

 

[Numb]

When SFV is involved everyone is a loser

 

[Anne]

Don't they have more defensive options in GG tho

Yes and no. The whole "GG has a ton of defensive options" thing is kind of a misnomer. It has good backdashes, guard cancels, etc. but so do tons of other things. KoF has more (and better) defensive options like that in general. The only really big difference maker in GG is Faultless Defense. So yeah, all those options + FD is nice, but again all those options exist elsewhere with the exception of FD(unless you look at VSav and VS series).

SFV lacks good defensive options in general compared to fighting games at large. Limiting them even further is just so bizarre.

 

[Kalamari]

How will Tekken save the FGC exactly?

By merely being a complete game with good netcode.

 

[Shouta]

It is entirely possible for a healthy meta to develop that deepens over time while the devs still make changes to the game on a regular basis. Fighting games aren't some magical exception to what the rest of the industry has taught us about that.

I think more people don't like the idea because a competent team hasn't actually done this well with Killer Instinct S2 onward being like the only exception. It's easy to not like the idea when the people you see doing balancing just regularly misunderstand what is actually happening in the game.

Like the SFV S2 thing had /nothing/ to do with the fact the game got patched. If anything it got patched at least 6 months too slow. Just whatever decisions Capcom made about changes in that patch are baffling.

I find SFV S2 extra baffling because I do respect Combofiend and I figured he'd play a big role in it. Idk if he just fucked up or if Japan severely overrided his input.

Right. The idea that FGs are some kind of exception really puzzles me. It just keeps getting circulated too which is mindboggling. It's all about the development team itself. If we had the team and there were still problems, it's not inherent to the genre itself but rather that information exchange and avenues for player growth are limited in FGs, relatively speaking.

Anyone remember what the first FG with online play was?

 

[Parallax Scroll]

I don't play SFV. Could I get the one sentence version of why season 2 is bad?

 

[Dahbomb]

I don't play SFV. Could I get the one sentence version of why season 2 is bad?

Some of the best characters in S2 use their V trigger like X factor and then steal the game from you with big damage and/or mix ups (Balrog, Laura, Urien).

Bonus sentence: Grey HP nerf, V reversal nerf, DP nerf combined with weak anti airs and stubby normals means that aggression is ruling supreme and defense/neutral is being trampled on.


Basically what Capcom said that they didn't want to happen with SFV (vortex like game play, comeback factors, lack of neutral game play) is happening in S2.

 

[sixteen-bit]

By merely being a complete game with good netcode.

I hope the load times are good too.

 

[Parallax Scroll]

Thanks Dahbomb.

 

[Numb]

I hope the load times are good too.

30 seconds on yesterday's stream
Might change by launch
Maybe

 

[Sayad]

I don't play SFV. Could I get the one sentence version of why season 2 is bad?

Offense got buffed and defense got nerfed.

 

[notworksafe]

Anyone remember what the first FG with online play was?

Off the top of my head I wanna say it was one of the 3D MK games. Deception maybe?

This is of course not counting games that worked with XBAND on SNES

 

[CommandThrower]

Off the top of my head I wanna say it was one of the 3D MK games. Deception maybe?

This is of course not counting games that worked with XBAND on SNES

Man, that reminds me. MK: Armageddon might have been the first fighting game I ever played online. It was either that or Marvel Nemesis.

 

[sixteen-bit]

Prolly one of the Dreamcast matching service games.

Any Saturn netlink online fighters?

Heat.net had a fighting game in like, 1998 too

 

[MrCarter]

SFV doesn't even have functioning in-game voice chat ffs. It's the running joke of the community - it's SFxT but we don't have a better game to fall back on.

EDIT: Hell, I just sat through the SFV credits to check my assumption.

There was no UX consultant on board for SFV. In fact, there is a dearth of staff all around. The core Capcom team makes up only a minority of development staff, with DIMPS doing the heavy lifting and a shed-tonne of external artists working on Story Mode.

Can't think why SFV was in such a state when it was a collaboration between two companies to make two products, with duplicated staff, a small budget and strict timelines...

The game is developed internally by both Capcom and DIMPS, majority of it by Capcom. I do agree about the voice-chat, but I can see why most people would avoid that due to trolls online spouting rubbish in your ear from all the saltiness. If anything, I think text chat would have been the best all round. Lastly, this game will never be SFxT - that game was trash. It was a tragedy really because I did like the initial concept of the game.

 

[Professor Beef]

Prolly one of the Dreamcast matching service games.

Any Saturn netlink online fighters?

Heat.net had a fighting game in like, 1998 too

Saturn for sure had netplay.