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Fighting Game Headquarters |eSports| 4444 Life

P

Parallax Scroll

Banned
I've occasionally brought mvc3 to a friend's house when they're not a serious fighting game player. Every time, as soon as it says "pick your assist" they're like deer in the headlights. The damn character select screen is too intimidating for some people I know.

I don't like the removal of assists in mvci but I get why they did it.
 
Q

QisTopTier

XisBannedTier
Lol dude why the fuck are you getting so defensive about me saying marvel is pick and play for casuals. No shit the game scales and gets way harder, I'm sorry I hurt your feelings talking about your precious marvel holy shit.


The point is anyone can pick up the game and start doing some basic cool stuff. Like the engines in the series has been designed that way since cota.

Im not saying the entire game is casual wtf, no shit casuals are going to get destroyed by people that put the time in
 
L

Lostconfused

Member
QisTopTier said:
Lol dude why the fuck are you getting so defensive
Click to expand...
Don't worry, there's just a lot of projecting going around here. People here constantly fail to step away from their "competitive" perception of these games and not consider what "casual" players might care about.

Then again some people just want to say casual players don't exist or might as well not exist or not be players, so I don't know.
 
D

Dahbomb

Member
QisTopTier said:
Lol dude why the fuck are you getting so defensive about me saying marvel is pick and play for casuals. No shit the game scales and gets way harder, I'm sorry I hurt your feelings talking about your precious marvel holy shit.


The point is anyone can pick up the game and start doing some basic cool stuff. Like the engines in the series has been designed that way since cota.

Im not saying the entire game is casual wtf, no shit casuals are going to get destroyed by people that put the time in
Click to expand...
There are no hurt feelings or being defensive here, this applies to every single fighting game (or hell even multiplayer game).

Like I will just use Tekken as an example since you think I am being biased or some shit. Tekken is super easy to get into at a casual level (just like Marvel, MK, SF, GG). You mash some buttons, use some good moves, learn some juggles and you are in there. You will do some cool shit especially with certain characters like Eddy. At the casual level no one is going to know frame data or how to counter all the moves that you accidentally mash out.

As soon as you start learning to become competent that's where the scaling kicks in hard. You have to learn about move properties, frame adv/disadv, combos, punishes, movement etc. The amount of stuff you have to parse through is immense.


So your statement about getting into a game at a casual level is meaningless because it applies to every fighter. SF, VS, Soul Calibur, GG, Smash etc. What matters is how hard it is to get from a casual level to competent level and that's where fighting games vary a lot. At the top end all fighting games are very hard and at the casual level all fighting games are easy to pick up and play but there is this is large middle ground of kinda competent to decent players. This is where there is a difference between an NRS game and a VS game. NRS games are 1v1, low to medium mobility games where as VS games are 2v2/3v3, high mobility games. That's a distinct difference in the games that makes one scale harder than the other.
 
M

MrCarter

Member
Lostconfused said:
Don't worry, there's just a lot of projecting going around here. People here constantly fail to step away from their "competitive" perception of these games and not consider what "casual" players might care about.

Then again some people just want to say casual players don't exist or might as well not exist or not be players, so I don't know.
Click to expand...

Not really. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out the difference in execution between a NRS and MvC game and the fact that the former is far more casual friendly than the latter is a plus for sales. At the end of the day I think both of these fighting games know their market well, one which appeals to casuals and the other to semi/highly competitive players, and that's perfectly fine.
 
D

Dahbomb

Member
AAK said:
He's basically saying this statement:

is false, for the reasons in his post.
Click to expand...
Yeah I am not agreeing with McCarter's statement either. Both games are casual at a casual level, just in different ways. McCarter is probably referring to the scaling from casual to competency because execution isn't a big factor in casual level play.
 
Q

QisTopTier

XisBannedTier
MrCarter said:
Not really. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out the difference in execution between a NRS and MvC game and the fact that the former is far more casual friendly than the latter is a plus for sales. At the end of the day I think both of these fighting games know their market well, one which appeals to casuals and the other to semi/highly competitive players, and that's perfectly fine.
Click to expand...
If you are arguing about execution difference at an actual casual level then this post is just telling me you never played a nrs game before.

Marvel has a higher expansive cap at higher levels but it's freedom let's casual players just have fun. nrs is stuck with prebaked chains they have to memorise, wack mobility, a non forgiving cancel system. Which for higher level play caps off early because you can only do so much on that side of things but for pick and play people they are busy trying to figure out the rules of what their character is allowed to actually do while doing basic uncool little things

Dahbomb said:
Yeah I am not agreeing with McCarter's statement either. Both games are casual at a casual level, just in different ways. McCarter is probably referring to the scaling from casual to competency because execution isn't a big factor in casual level play.
Click to expand...
The second they care about putting effort into competitive play they stop being casual so I'm not referring to those types whatsoever
 
M

MrCarter

Member
QisTopTier said:
If you are arguing about execution difference at an actual casual level then this post is just telling me you never played a nrs game before.

Marvel has a higher expansive cap at higher levels but it's freedom let's casual players just have fun. nrs is stuck with prebaked chains they have to memorise, wack mobility, a non forgiving cancel system. Which for higher level play caps off early because you can only do so much on that side of things but for pick and play people they are busy trying to figure out the rules of what their character is allowed to actually do while doing basic uncool little things


The second they care about putting effort into competitive play they stop being casual so I'm not referring to those types whatsoever
Click to expand...

All fighters are obviously casual if played at a casual level but like I mentioned that's NRS's bread and butter and they know how to appeal to them with the full package. I have played MK9, MKX and Injustice actually and the combo strings and far easier to do than MvC because you literally mash strings together. Again, that's fine as that's what their audience wants. Do I think it's not a competitive game? Course not, but it will never be quite on the levels of a VS fighter. That's why I said both companies know who they each attract and are clearly good at doing it.
 
K

Karsticles

Member
IMO, accessibility in a fighting game is about how much work/execution is required for you to feel like you are having a competent experience.

I would call Street Fighter accessible in that regard. All you need to know is special move inputs, and you can learn a basic jump in sweep combo that feels good at low levels of play.

MK is extremely accessible - you can mash the hell out of combos with no timing at all, and moves can be done as motions or taps - brilliant!

Marvel 3 is almost as accessible as MK, and while I think MvCi is less accessible at high levels of play than Marvel 3, it's just as accessible for people who just want to feel cool, especially since autocombos are in the game.

I would say that ASW games are typically less accessible. If you don't know exactly what you are doing, you feel like an idiot.

Anyone can feel good while mashing around in Tekken.
 
A

AAK

Member
Karsticles said:
I would say that ASW games are typically less accessible. If you don't know exactly what you are doing, you feel like an idiot.
Click to expand...

blazblue-central-fiction-2016113173749_4.jpg


GuiltyGearXrdRevelator_20160529192136_thumb.jpg
 
K

Karsticles

Member
QisTopTier said:
kagura players.... wait nvm yeah children :p
Click to expand...
LOL

AAK said:
... Casuals?
Click to expand...
Casual doesn't mean incompetent. Bayonetta has an autopilot mode where you can mash A to beat the whole game without ever getting touched, but I never hear of people actually playing the game that way.

Anyway, my point is that accessibility shouldn't be defined as the game being played for you. We're talking about people having to learn how to play the game. Bayonetta isn't more "accessible" because it has an autopilot mode.
 
A

AAK

Member
Karsticles said:
Anyway, my point is that accessibility shouldn't be defined as the game being played for you. We're talking about people having to learn how to play the game. Bayonetta isn't more "accessible" because it has an autopilot mode.
Click to expand...

This contradicts what you posted here:

I think MvCi is less accessible at high levels of play than Marvel 3, it's just as accessible for people who just want to feel cool, especially since autocombos are in the game.
Click to expand...

You just said MvCI is just as "accessible" because it has auto-combo's.
 
P

pizzacat

Banned
What do you guys feel about characters that are sorta busted but require excellent execution?

I can't really get mad when I get bopped by a heavy execution top tier character as opposed to getting bopped by the latest UNGA
 
K

Karsticles

Member
AAK said:
This contradicts what you posted here:



You just said MvCI is just as "accessible" because it has auto-combo's.
Click to expand...

Auto-combos don't play the whole game for you. This is the problem with Guilty Gear's Stylish Mode:
https://youtu.be/Yj4UB4oc1Ew?t=135

Guilty Gear makes actual decisions for you based on how your opponent responds to your mashing. MvCi just does one combo over and over, with no variation. At least, that's what I assume the MvCi option does. If the MvCi option is making decisions for you, then it's just as bad as Guilty Gear.

Also, wtf @ Guilty Gear Stylish Mode attacks having different frame data and properties than non-Stylish. That's double bad. You're literally playing a different character.

pizzacat said:
What do you guys feel about characters that are sorta busted but require excellent execution?

I can't really get mad when I get bopped by a heavy execution top tier character as opposed to getting bopped by the latest UNGA
Click to expand...
I think there are different ways characters can be top tier, and there are different player requirements. A character like Ryu, for example, will never require high execution. If Ryu is top tier, it's because you have to master spacing and reactions. I think a great fighting game has characters that are capable of becoming top tier through different play approaches, and one of those is the character who is top tier through execution requirements (Zato, C. Viper, Fox). The high execution isn't a justification for the tier placement, it's just one of many options and approaches to how a character can be good.

So, ideally, someone who has mid execution skill like myself would not pick C. Viper. But there would be a character that suits my strongest attribute, which is spacing, who is also top tier. Then I get to play and be happy, and so do the execution gods like MarlinPie and Sako.
 
O

oneida

Cock Strain, Lifetime Warranty
pizzacat said:
What do you guys feel about characters that are sorta busted but require excellent execution?

I can't really get mad when I get bopped by a heavy execution top tier character as opposed to getting bopped by the latest UNGA
Click to expand...

do mishimas fall into this category?
 
D

Dahbomb

Member
pizzacat said:
What do you guys feel about characters that are sorta busted but require excellent execution?

I can't really get mad when I get bopped by a heavy execution top tier character as opposed to getting bopped by the latest UNGA
Click to expand...
Probably one of the hardest FG related questions to answer and there is no right way or easy way to answer this.

I think higher execution character should be slightly better than characters with lower execution but not straight up busted if played at a high enough execution. Because eventually someone gets to that level and they dominate the field. Execution is after all just one aspect that is tested in a fighting game, playing a character that can just win off of executing a specific strategy does not make for a good fighting game.
 
P

pizzacat

Banned
Karsticles said:
Auto-combos don't play the whole game for you. This is the problem with Guilty Gear's Stylish Mode:
https://youtu.be/Yj4UB4oc1Ew?t=135

Guilty Gear makes actual decisions for you based on how your opponent responds to your mashing. MvCi just does one combo over and over, with no variation. At least, that's what I assume the MvCi option does. If the MvCi option is making decisions for you, then it's just as bad as Guilty Gear.

Also, wtf @ Guilty Gear Stylish Mode attacks having different frame data and properties than non-Stylish. That's double bad. You're literally playing a different character.


I think there are different ways characters can be top tier, and there are different player requirements. A character like Ryu, for example, will never require high execution. If Ryu is top tier, it's because you have to master spacing and reactions. I think a great fighting game has characters that are capable of becoming top tier through different play approaches, and one of those is the character who is top tier through execution requirements (Zato, C. Viper, Fox). The high execution isn't a justification for the tier placement, it's just one of many options and approaches to how a character can be good.

So, ideally, someone who has mid execution skill like myself would not pick C. Viper. But there would be a character that suits my strongest attribute, which is spacing, who is also top tier. Then I get to play and be happy, and so do the execution gods like MarlinPie and Sako.
Click to expand...
You put it like that and think of the struggle of playing ryu in v for example, sometimes the game doesn't allow to shine in these categories which reminds me of how KNEE views high execution characters like mishimas and Bryan in tekken 7 because of system they play on
Makes you think if things were different how would these character be viewed
oneida said:
do mishimas fall into this category?
Click to expand...
I wouldn't call mishimas busted, but I just started with t7 so maybe I'm not looking at the right things. I do realize what makes dj the superior mishima just by going to training mode with him for a couple of minutes tho

But even then when I get beat by the kazuya hellsweeping my ankles off, it feels better than getting beat by a drag or a kazumi even though they aren't unga like I described before
 
N

Numb

Member
pizzacat said:
What do you guys feel about characters that are sorta busted but require excellent execution?

I can't really get mad when I get bopped by a heavy execution top tier character as opposed to getting bopped by the latest UNGA
Click to expand...

Busted is too much but top tier high execution combined mostly with low health is ok
 
L

Linari

Neo Member
Karsticles said:
I'm talking about when people actually play the game. Who, except for children, uses that feature?
Click to expand...

Umm, when I was in college playing games like blazblue and gg, I had a bunch of guys and gals constantly come up randomly to play cuz they saw Xrd in HD on my setup. Whenever they come play I would inform them of stylish mode. They had a great time with it, some even kept playing after that and became good friends and still play.

But, yeah children.....

They also turned into meltyblood players for some reason lol
 
S

Shin K Dash

Member
pizzacat said:
What do you guys feel about characters that are sorta busted but require excellent execution?

I can't really get mad when I get bopped by a heavy execution top tier character as opposed to getting bopped by the latest UNGA
Click to expand...

these types of characters attract me so I would have a very biased opinion on it
 
L

Line_HTX

Member
That type of character is necessary to see how stupid and busted broken it is. It's a growing pain process to feel how outmatched you are before it gets nerfed. Good and bad, I guess.
 
S

SixMachine

Member
Lostconfused said:
pretty good interview here I think https://www.gamasutra.com/view/news...Harada_place_The_massive_Tekken_interview.php

Nothing new or ground breaking, but you can tell that the person in charge isn't a complete moron.
Click to expand...

I read this earlier today. That answer about customization sounds like bullshit to be honest. I understand not having something like the WiiU draw your own texture option, but even some of the mundane options from T6 and TTT2 are missing, and some current ones look kind of sloppy (hairstyle options being quite limited and a lot of hair accessories only accessible to the ponytail style for example).
 
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