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Fighting Game Headquarters |eSports| 4444 Life

enzo_gt

tagged by Blackace
Good to know re: Niitsuma, but I meant information about the playable characters. MvCi is 90% a copy-paste job, but it can't even be bothered to copy-paste everyone over, and that's really confusing to me.
I don't know why this keeps coming up. If they copy+pasted everything it would look like they were reselling UMvC3 again, or a UMvC3-2, with an even smaller expansion tacked on than when going from MvC3 to UMvC3; if they even had that many resources, which, as we can see, they clearly don't.

It's not rocket science. If they had more money, they'd have more characters, and they wouldn't spend those resources on making it look like even more of a copy+paste job, but on newer characters.
 

Dahbomb

Member
I don't know why this keeps coming up. If they copy+pasted everything it would look like they were reselling UMvC3 again, or a UMvC3-2, with an even smaller expansion tacked on than when going from MvC3 to UMvC3; if they even had that many resources, which, as we can see, they clearly don't.

It's not rocket science. If they had more money, they'd have more characters, and they wouldn't spend those resources on making it look like even more of a copy+paste job, but on newer characters.
This is not maximum level shill here.


This is how we shill:

They aren't as many characters because they were too busy making a 2 hour, cinematic fully voiced and motion captured cutscene story mode.
 
I don't know why this keeps coming up. If they copy+pasted everything it would look like they were reselling UMvC3 again, or a UMvC3-2, with an even smaller expansion tacked on than when going from MvC3 to UMvC3; if they even had that many resources, which, as we can see, they clearly don't.

It's not rocket science. If they had more money, they'd have more characters, and they wouldn't spend those resources on making it look like even more of a copy+paste job, but on newer characters.
That's like saying "If I gave you this cheeseburger I bought, it would look like I'm just giving you my leftovers. So instead I'm going to throw half in the trash, and give you the other half." How in the world does that make sense?

Your head does not work well when it comes to this game man.
 

Dahbomb

Member
The two things I'm always curious about with fighting games is how long a team takes to make a character and how much that character costs.
Ryu's arm in SF4 cost $100k to make based on Seth's comments. So like half a million per character at least I would imagine in a bigger budget fighting game. Skullgirls is more indie and even that needs over $100k to make a single character.
 

Tan

Member
The two things I'm always curious about with fighting games is how long a team takes to make a character and how much that character costs.

Skullgirls DLC Character indiegogo thing brought that topic up a lot.
Here's just one article about it.

And even if a lot of assets are being re-used for older characters, it's still not a 0 cost implementation. Balancing, new animations, new audio, changes needed to adapt to new engine, etc.
 
Ryu's arm in SF4 cost $100k to make based on Seth's comments. So like half a million per character at least I would imagine in a bigger budget fighting game. Skullgirls is more indie and even that needs over $100k to make a single character.

Just the arm? That's funny. I rememer reading that the characters were around $1M each, but I can't remember where I read it. Skullgirls characters were closer to $200k+ I'm pretty sure

The main thing is that every studio is different. Lab Zero is probably the only studio that can make a character as cheaply and quickly as they do. When KOF13 was new there was talk about how much that cost and how long it took.

I think seeing the differences is what's really interesting.
 

Dahbomb

Member
One million for a character is probably about right.

Makes you wonder what the budget of Marvel 3 vs MVCI is. Unless the story mode cost a fuck ton, I would imagine Marvel 3 cost way more to make (adjusted for inflation).
 

Rhaknar

The Steam equivalent of the drunk friend who keeps offering to pay your tab all night.
That arcana heart Kickstarter is asking for 350k for a non-playable character so yeah, shit is expensive.
 

CO_Andy

Member
We all knew it was made internally from the start. Artsyle (character modelling), UI and roster aside I think this feels like a fresh and welcome new take on the VS genre.
"Internally" could have also meant Capcom Vancouver handling development.

Despite all the flack SFV has gotten, V's art style is on the fresh chart. MvCi's is woefully generic and in a lot of ways looks worse than its nearly decade old predecessor, TvC.
 

Dlent

Member
That arcana heart Kickstarter is asking for 350k for a non-playable character so yeah, shit is expensive.

That's a stretch goal. I think it was 260k for shark girl, so about 90k left for a boss-only character. Keep in mind that Arcana Heart is also not using HD sprites(I think).
 

MrCarter

Member
"Internally" could have also meant Capcom Vancouver handling development.

Despite all the flack SFV has gotten, V's art style is on the fresh chart. MvCi's is woefully generic and in a lot of ways looks worse than its nearly decade old predecessor, TvC.

That's hyperbole lol. I loved TvC but there's no way that game looks better than MvCi. Like I said, visuals are not on the same levels of quality like SFV but the dynamic gameplay looks great so far.
 

enzo_gt

tagged by Blackace
This is not maximum level shill here.


This is how we shill:

They aren't as many characters because they were too busy making a 2 hour, cinematic fully voiced and motion captured cutscene story mode.
What I said doesn't conflict with this. We have a pretty good idea of where the money went, that there probably wasn't much of it, and it wasn't where most of us would want.

That's like saying "If I gave you this cheeseburger I bought, it would look like I'm just giving you my leftovers. So instead I'm going to throw half in the trash, and give you the other half." How in the world does that make sense?

Your head does not work well when it comes to this game man.
Makes perfect sense when you consider the headlines if they pumped out UMvC3 at $60 with 6 new characters vs. some returning, some not returning painted as a new, different game, as it has been. They'd be much worse off because it would make it even more apparent it's a gutted UMvC3, even if it had more characters (but not necessarily content, see: Story Mode) on paper. Hate the word, but it's all about the optics, and differentiating it from UMvC3 is more important than pumping out UMvC3-2 if you want to sell it to more than just the hardcore. I'm not defending it, way back I was one of the only people saying that an MvC4 should basically be MvC3 with a bazillion new characters tacked onto it that they continue to add to. No shit more characters is better even if you're reusing them, but when you only have so many resources to work with it's kind of self-evident why we got what we got unless they wanted to guarantee what they put out would bomb. Look at the reaction to the game already for looking like Capcom's trying to scam you into buying a gutted UMvC3 again, that's a big reason for why people are passing on this game already. It's nonsensical to say there's "no reason" for them not to bring every character back from UMvC3. Maybe in MvC:Infinite Money Edition, where we can ignore all context.
 

enzo_gt

tagged by Blackace
tl;dr: Story Mode is a way better sales (and thus, general) decision than spending time/money/resources on updating more old characters.
 

CO_Andy

Member
That's hyperbole lol. I loved TvC but there's no way that game looks better than MvCi. Like I said, visuals are not on the same levels of quality like SFV but the dynamic gameplay looks great so far.
MvCI is technically superior, but like Aris once said, there's a lack of respect for the legacy. This new image on rkappa sums up how a lot of people feel.

UzqFSOTudYelgFDcZM6OoaYsvNKq1786iBfy1YXSQS4.png
 

enzo_gt

tagged by Blackace
Capcom is so damn inconsistent with art direction even within the same game.
Capcom has to be one of the most inefficient publishers out there.

They built CFN only for it to be cumbersome and drop it in their next game. For the longest time they would use a different netcode solution in every game too.
 
I'm not sure they kept the exact same models to be honest. But one of the most complicated and expensive things to do is actually creating the skeleton you apply the 3D model onto, which is then used to do animations. I don't remember the exact numbers but fighting games have an incredible amount of bones composing characters due to animations. I remember reading something about more than 5000 bones for a SF5 character.

Keeping this incredible work for MVCi isn't a scam to me considering how it's a valuable asset. The real problem is the characters looking uglier than before and the devs not even changing things like some animations or camera placement during supers. It doesn't feel like a returning character, just a straight copy and it feels cheap.

Edit: and the fact that returning characters are 75% of the cast of course.
Edit 2: I can confirm from sources that some SF4 characters costed more than 1 million dollar. The cheapest ones are the twins in USF4, they were build as the same character having the moves for both then they swapt the faces.
 
My ultimate problem with Infinite isn't that it feels like a cheap job or that it's ugly. I can understand game devs having crazy expectations and deadlines to meet, especially with a licensed game.

My problem is that I have no faith they're going to be able to eventually deliver a solid product. If SFV, something that should be a high priority title isn't getting basic QoL problems addressed after all this time, I really can't see a reason to think Infinite isn't going to stay a shitshow its entire life, even if that's the next five years.
 

Rhaknar

The Steam equivalent of the drunk friend who keeps offering to pay your tab all night.
My ultimate problem with Infinite isn't that it feels like a cheap job or that it's ugly. I can understand game devs having crazy expectations and deadlines to meet, especially with a licensed game.

My problem is that I have no faith they're going to be able to eventually deliver a solid product. If SFV, something that should be a high priority title isn't getting basic QoL problems addressed after all this time, I really can't see a reason to think Infinite isn't going to stay a shitshow its entire life, even if that's the next five years.

welll... if you dont mind the presentation like you said, then it IS a solid product, its not a shitshow at all. It has the modes it needs to have, the online is more robust than SF5, so the problem is the roster, which we know for a fact will get 6 more characters, and most assume it will get at least 6 more no matter how badly the game does, taking it up to 42, which isnt amazing, but its certainly healthy for a 2v2 game.
 

Anne

Member
We had Marvel at the arcade yesterday, and I'm pretty shocked at how ugly the final build is in person. It just looks really unfinished still, and even randos who were watching it on the projector were asking if this was actually a new current gen game.

You can reuse assets to make things happen, but dear god everything about it feels so cheap and looks terrible.

At least just messing with it and doing basic things felt okay. I don't have that much to say on gameplay past that. I'm sort of on the fence about buying it myself, but I dunno if I wanna put out $60 on a Capcom game early right now. It feels okay so far, but I mean it always starts out fine.
 

enzo_gt

tagged by Blackace
My ultimate problem with Infinite isn't that it feels like a cheap job or that it's ugly. I can understand game devs having crazy expectations and deadlines to meet, especially with a licensed game.

My problem is that I have no faith they're going to be able to eventually deliver a solid product. If SFV, something that should be a high priority title isn't getting basic QoL problems addressed after all this time, I really can't see a reason to think Infinite isn't going to stay a shitshow its entire life, even if that's the next five years.
This was the premise of that Polygon article, SFV is the best case against not buying MvC:I, or whatever.

But what are these things that it needs that aren't visual that you're referring to? MvC:I is a direct response to what people thought SFV lacked at launch that people wanted. Story Mode, functional online, trials, etc. It's the complete package. They ditched CFN because they didn't want to deal with the QoL issues that came with it. What is left exactly, if it's not the visuals. And even with the visuals, they heard the outcry, and took immediate steps during development to fix them. And they say it will be supported for years afterwards; SFV bombed probably worse than MvC:I will and it's still getting healthy support.

Intentionally and in effect the game directly addresses the things people hated about SFV's rollout, but for the press surrounding the game has been so negative that I think people are kind of blind to it because we're trained to think of Capcom as a singularity over time, but this is the best evidence against it, really. They've been proactive but nobody cares because no X-Men or chromatic aberration or whatever dominates the mindshare.
 
welll... if you dont mind the presentation

but i do mind the presentation

while infinite might turn out to have solid gameplay, it's not a solid product

don't try to spin the presentation being what it is as not a problem. and it's not even the main issue, it's a symptom of the overall care and effort capcom can and will put into the game
 

Anne

Member
But what are these things that it needs that aren't visual that you're referring to? MvC:I is a direct response to what people thought SFV lacked at launch that people wanted. Story Mode, functional online, trials, etc. It's the complete package. They ditched CFN because they didn't want to deal with the QoL issues that came with it. What is left exactly, if it's not the visuals. And even with the visuals, they heard the outcry, and took immediate steps during development to fix them. And they say it will be supported for years afterwards; SFV bombed probably worse than MvC:I will and it's still getting healthy support.

For me, personally, none of that matters. What matters is SFV as a competitive fighting game wasn't up to standard in a lot of ways, and the amount of time it took to get better was just not acceptable. Then when it came time to transition into Season 2, the game became a laughing stock for a bit where basically every top player had a go at slamming it at some point or another. That coupled with the quality of some of the gameplay additions makes me wonder if Capcom has the resources to actually keep making solid improvements to the actual game.

Like, the last two Capcom fighting games I bought were SFxT and SFV. SFxT was so bad that I jumped ship and went in on Persona another anime shit full time. It never got to a point where it was just a great fighting game (no not even the 2013 edition is that great). The journey SFV has taken has been so shaky and it's still not at a point where you can call it great. It's barely reaching acceptable right now.

If MvC:I isn't a good fighting game out the box or has some huge glaring flaws, I cannot trust Capcom to fix it or make a great game out of it. It usually takes a month or so to really start to see if something has that potential or not. With MvC:I, the quality of some of the gameplay and some bugs is already really shaky. I don't know if I can trust that or not. I usually buy every FG and give it a solid chance so I might, but money's a bit too tight to be throwing away while I'm in school.


Meanwhile Tekken also launched barebones with some issues, but at least it's a great fighting game out the box and has been worked on at a pretty steady rate. ASW is killing it right now no matter if you like BB, GG, DBFZ, whatever. Capcom hasn't blindly earned my time on this one yet.
 
but i do mind the presentation

while infinite might turn out to have solid gameplay, it's not a solid product

don't try to spin the presentation being what it is as not a problem. and it's not even the main issue, it's a symptom of the overall care and effort capcom can and will put into the game
I mean DBFZ has great presentation, but has delay based netcode. That screams lazy to me... MvCi has shit presentation, but rollback netcode. It remains to be seen how good MvCi netcode is after the initial impressions (always skeptical of day -5 netcode impressions)...
 

jett

D-Member
MvCI is technically superior, but like Aris once said, there's a lack of respect for the legacy. This new image on rkappa sums up how a lot of people feel.

UzqFSOTudYelgFDcZM6OoaYsvNKq1786iBfy1YXSQS4.png

Infinite Ryu has similar proportions to MvC3 and TvC Ryu.

hqdefault.jpg


And TvC looks awful what the hell are you talking about.
 

MrCarter

Member
We had Marvel at the arcade yesterday, and I'm pretty shocked at how ugly the final build is in person. It just looks really unfinished still, and even randos who were watching it on the projector were asking if this was actually a new current gen game.

The people are either blind at that arcade, ignorant to what a new gen game looks like or are just purely biased. The game's art style and character models look more subdued than MvC3 (which is obviously a stylistic choice) but the graphics fidelity, animation, hit sparks and effects are definitely this gen. I know some people who have it early and the initial impressions are they feel impressed. Mind you, they don't follow the toxicity online so they can be more logical without any agenda.
 
For me, personally, none of that matters. What matters is SFV as a competitive fighting game wasn't up to standard in a lot of ways, and the amount of time it took to get better was just not acceptable. Then when it came time to transition into Season 2, the game became a laughing stock for a bit where basically every top player had a go at slamming it at some point or another. That coupled with the quality of some of the gameplay additions makes me wonder if Capcom has the resources to actually keep making solid improvements to the actual game.

Like, the last two Capcom fighting games I bought were SFxT and SFV. SFxT was so bad that I jumped ship and went in on Persona another anime shit full time. It never got to a point where it was just a great fighting game (no not even the 2013 edition is that great). The journey SFV has taken has been so shaky and it's still not at a point where you can call it great. It's barely reaching acceptable right now.

If MvC:I isn't a good fighting game out the box or has some huge glaring flaws, I cannot trust Capcom to fix it or make a great game out of it. It usually takes a month or so to really start to see if something has that potential or not. With MvC:I, the quality of some of the gameplay and some bugs is already really shaky. I don't know if I can trust that or not. I usually buy every FG and give it a solid chance so I might, but money's a bit too tight to be throwing away while I'm in school.


Meanwhile Tekken also launched barebones with some issues, but at least it's a great fighting game out the box and has been worked on at a pretty steady rate. ASW is killing it right now no matter if you like BB, GG, DBFZ, whatever. Capcom hasn't blindly earned my time on this one yet.
What's your agenda?
Ohhh I love that you included this word in your post.
 

Anne

Member
What's your agenda?

To buy and play good fighting games from devs that consistently deliver across the board. It's not to trust a developer with a bad recent track record just because they are a legacy brand in the community.

I want to know about these bugs that basically break the game. ��

I don't think anything breaks the game atm outside of the infinite that should be fixed soon. Infinites found this early tend to get fixed so whatevs. There are also a bunch of other weird bugs in there like the float glitch and some other weird camera things we got to happen. It's not that bad yet, but with Capcom quality and their responses I'm not too comfortable with how they'll handle bugs that do both good and bad things. Outside of bugs there's also unintended gameplay interactions which were also handled pretty poorly in SFV.

On another note, I didn't know your shill signal extended past SFV and straight into Capcom's taint.
 

enzo_gt

tagged by Blackace
For me, personally, none of that matters. What matters is SFV as a competitive fighting game wasn't up to standard in a lot of ways, and the amount of time it took to get better was just not acceptable. Then when it came time to transition into Season 2, the game became a laughing stock for a bit where basically every top player had a go at slamming it at some point or another. That coupled with the quality of some of the gameplay additions makes me wonder if Capcom has the resources to actually keep making solid improvements to the actual game.

Like, the last two Capcom fighting games I bought were SFxT and SFV. SFxT was so bad that I jumped ship and went in on Persona another anime shit full time. It never got to a point where it was just a great fighting game (no not even the 2013 edition is that great). The journey SFV has taken has been so shaky and it's still not at a point where you can call it great. It's barely reaching acceptable right now.

If MvC:I isn't a good fighting game out the box or has some huge glaring flaws, I cannot trust Capcom to fix it or make a great game out of it. It usually takes a month or so to really start to see if something has that potential or not. With MvC:I, the quality of some of the gameplay and some bugs is already really shaky. I don't know if I can trust that or not. I usually buy every FG and give it a solid chance so I might, but money's a bit too tight to be throwing away while I'm in school.


Meanwhile Tekken also launched barebones with some issues, but at least it's a great fighting game out the box and has been worked on at a pretty steady rate. ASW is killing it right now no matter if you like BB, GG, DBFZ, whatever. Capcom hasn't blindly earned my time on this one yet.
There's many reasons not to like or buy MvC:I, that much is obvious, the game hasn't exactly set the world on fire, and people are justified in having gameplay concerns as well (especially given the drastic change going from the last iteration), but that's perhaps the most subjective quality a game can have next to character design. Dunno what you're referring to in terms of bugs unless you're talking about the shit MikeZ was perpetuating despite not patching the game?

I'm just saying, lack of support or not paying attention to the periphery things outside of gameplay is demonstrably not one of them, and prospectively not so given what we know and how DLC plans are rapidly unfolding.
 

MrCarter

Member
To buy and play good fighting games from devs that consistently deliver across the board. It's not to trust a developer with a bad recent track record just because they are a legacy brand in the community.

This reads like something in the daily mail. A toxic newspaper in the U.K. that loves spreading hate and fear across the land on which it feeds on. MvCi hasn't even been released yet and if you did get your arse out of your backside you would see impressions have been very good recently and the casual content and some online components that was missed out on in SFV was addressed here. It seems you want to prove a point by going on a "Capcom riot" but then you realise you are the only one holding up a placard.

I don't think anything breaks the game atm outside of the infinite that should be fixed soon. Infinites found this early tend to get fixed so whatevs. There are also a bunch of other weird bugs in there like the float glitch and some other weird camera things we got to happen. It's not that bad yet, but with Capcom quality and their responses I'm not too comfortable with how they'll handle bugs that do both good and bad things.

On another note, I didn't know your shill signal extended past SFV and straight into Capcom's taint.

Someone is getting defensive lol. No need to get personal. I've been critical of SFV as much as it's needed and just because I think it's a great game overall doesn't mean I'm automatically a "shill". Besides, the way you are shilling for Harada is hilarious and even more ironic given the state of T7 launch, a game which still has issues with online capabilities, bugs and input lag. Yet you are criticising MvCi of "bugs"? That's funny.
 
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