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[Artanisix]

So you're saying that there's a true fighter in SSBM, but you gotta turn off the entire item system and stick to playing one or two levels. Also you have to remove two of the intended four players.

If MVC2 is broken because only a few characters make sense for serious play, then it sounds like SSBM isn't doing too well either.

Taking away stages and items is to prevent as much luck from winning the battles. It's also done to stop players from getting unfair advantages.

And unlike MvC2, SSBM's characters are all fairly equal, though there are characters that are pronouncely better then everyone else (Marth, Sheik, and Fox). However, the tournament scene is not dominated by these characters.

Ill make you a deal.

The minute you stop talking dumb like Leguna ill start considering what you have to say.

...Sorry.

 

[Ramirez]

Leguna,Halo:Combat EVOLVED. :lol

 

[jarrod]

So you're saying that there's a true fighter in SSBM, but you gotta turn off the entire item system and stick to playing one or two levels. Also you have to remove two of the intended four players.

No, he's saying that's what's done for tournament play. The core game design and complex combat engine is still intact though if you go balls to the wall with moving stages, full items and 4 players.

By extension, plenty of fighting games limit options for tournament play. You're not going to see Link or Spawn pop up in any SC2 tournaments, does that imply SC2 isn't a "true" fighter then?

If MVC2 is broken because only a few characters make sense for serious play, then it sounds like SSBM isn't doing too well either.

Are you implying MVC2 isn't a fighting game then?

 

[LakeEarth]

So you're saying that there's a true fighter in SSBM, but you gotta turn off the entire item system and stick to playing one or two levels. Also you have to remove two of the intended four players.

No, he's saying that SSB can fit into the narrow definition of a fighting game you guys are giving it.

I just don't understand. It's a game where people FIGHT each other in an ARENA and hit each other until someone LOSES. Just because the game plays differently then all other fighting games doesn't change that. Just because the game has items doesn't change that. Just because you don't like the game doesn't change that.

It has all the fighting game mechanics, but it doesn't fit the general mold, so its not a fighter...riiiight. Even if it's in a 'sub-genre', it's a sub-genre in the genre of a fighting game.

 

[Minotauro]

By extension, plenty of fighting games limit options for tournament play. You're not going to see Link or Spawn pop up in any SC2 tournaments, does that imply SC2 isn't a "true" fighter then?

That's an uncommon example though. For the most part, fighting games don't have their rules adjusted for tournament play.

 

[Artanisix]

So that automatically discludes it from being a fighting game? I don't understand what you're trying to say, unless it's just that, in which I'm sorry.

(Directed at Minotauro)

 

[ArcadeStickMonk]

My own medicine, eh?

You're not going to see Link or Spawn pop up in any SC2 tournaments, does that imply SC2 isn't a "true" fighter then?

No, it implies that any good tournement respects the original arcade game as the gold standard and does not allow the fluff added so SSBM players would buy SC2.

Are you implying MVC2 isn't a fighting game then?

I'm not even implying that it was broken. I believe I used the word IF.

 

[aoi tsuki]

As much as i hate joining in these pointless debates, i've got to side with SSBM being a fighting game. Definitely not a typical fighting game, but if you want to use sub-genres to define it, i'd say a party/platforming fighting game. But call it whatever you want, until there's a definition of what a fighting game is that's agreed upon by the vast majority of gamers, this argument will be continue to be made.

The items and stages do present an element of randomness/luck/handicap not present in most other fighters. i'm usually against this sort of thing when playing seriously because it taints the purity of actual fighting by giving weaker opponents an advantage, but SSBM manages to make the randomness enjoyable and something you come to expect. i just don't take it as seriously as something like Third Strike or VF4 Evo. i think that's part of the enjoyment i get out of it, because it does suck to get KO'd at 150% by a tossed home run bat when you were kicking someone else's ass.

 

[Srider]

Hey, if you can show me one person in the WORLD that can do that knee move 10 times consecutive without messing up, then I'm wrong. I'm not just saying I can't do it, I'm saying NO ONE can.

Wow, it's apparent that you completely suck at comman input. I can do knee 10 times in a row, even more if I wanted to. I also know a handful of people who can do that.

 

[jarrod]

No, it implies that any good tournement respects the original arcade game as the gold standard and does not allow the fluff added so SSBM players would buy SC2.

Okay, how about Akuma/Gouki in SSF2T/X tournament play?

I'm not even implying that it was broken. I believe I used the word IF.

Sorry, I was just trying to follow your logic. I should've known better.

 

[Minotauro]

So that automatically discludes it from being a fighting game? I don't understand what you're trying to say, unless it's just that, in which I'm sorry.

(Directed at Minotauro)

You originally used the fact that SSBM is played in tournaments as justification for it being a fighting game. You then went on to specify what is and isn't allowed. I was simply pointing out that, for the most part, fighting games are played as-is in a tournament setting. Balance is probably the most important aspect of fighting games. I think once you start making special rules in order to balance a game for tournament play, question over it's validity as a fighter is sure to arise.

I don't necessarily have a problem with grouping it with other fighters though...provided that you're also willing to classify Power Stone, Phantom Dust, and Wrestlemania in the same caterogy.

 

[Artanisix]

You originally used the fact that SSBM is played in tournaments as justification for it being a fighting game. You then went on to specify what is and isn't allowed. I was simply pointing out that, for the most part, fighting games are played as-is in a tournament setting. Balance is probably the most important aspect of fighting games. I think once you start making special rules in order to balance a game for tournament play, question over it's validity as a fighter is sure to arise.

I don't necessarily have a problem with grouping it with other fighters though...provided that you're also willing to classify Power Stone, Phantom Dust, and Wrestlemania in the same caterogy.

It only takes several seconds to adjust the rules. It's hardly a problem.
5 stock, 7 minutes, random final destination dreamland 64 or pokemos stadium. Easy.

EDIT: Well. Class is about to end so i need to get going. I'll definetly come back and respond to comments if this thread happens to still be alive in around 7 hours.

 

[Lyte Edge]

Argh, why did you guys have to ruin a perfectly good "Leguna owns himself" thread with this SSBM crap? :/

 

[ArcadeStickMonk]

Argh, why did you guys have to ruin a perfectly good "Leguna owns himself" thread with this SSBM crap? :/

I warned ye! Dind't I warn ye?

 

[Hitokage]

Argh, why did you guys have to ruin a perfectly good "Leguna owns himself" thread with this SSBM crap? :/

This is exactly what's wrong with nintendo fans.

 

[The Faceless Master]

No, he's saying that SSB can fit into the narrow definition of a fighting game you guys are giving it.

I just don't understand. It's a game where people FIGHT each other in an ARENA and hit each other until someone LOSES. Just because the game plays differently then all other fighting games doesn't change that. Just because the game has items doesn't change that. Just because you don't like the game doesn't change that.

It has all the fighting game mechanics, but it doesn't fit the general mold, so its not a fighter...riiiight. Even if it's in a 'sub-genre', it's a sub-genre in the genre of a fighting game.

like Quake 3 Arena?

 

[aoi tsuki]

like Goldeneye with "slappers only"?

Yeah...

 

[LakeEarth]

like Quake 3 Arena?

Out of context alert. Jesus Christ, you know what I meant, yet you still have to twist it in a way that suits your way of thinking. Okay, so I guess I'll have to be super specific here.

1. You fight each other
2. You hit each other with physical attacks and weapon moves, and there are a wide range of different attacks you can do
3. It's in a third person perspective on the side
4. You can use items but you don't have to
5. You're in a stage arena
6. You have multiple characters to choose from that play differently from everyone else
7. You have a health bar
8. It's categorized as a fighting game almost everywhere

Jesus Christ. This is like oppositeland for Nintendo-fans who were trying take Metroid Prime OUT of the FPS category, now we're trying to get SSB IN to the fighting category.

 

[Leguna]

Lyte Edge:
Here I thought you were for people to post anything game related. SSBM is related to this topic, just on a more specific level. I'm currently observing what's being said and I'm going put my two cents in soon.

MrAngryFace:

The minute you stop talking dumb like Leguna ill start considering what you have to say.

How about you start actually writting something constructive towards your arguement instead of bitching in every thread anyone creates. If I "talk dumb" then please, PLEASE enlighten me with you wisdom of gaming and tell me how the hell I'm wrong with what I said? Don't be a follower, be a leader, set an example MrAngryFace.

 

[Gantz]

OMFG SSBM and VF4 are the deepest fighting games ever!!!! :lol

 

[Ristamar]

Meh. I see this discussion has veered off into another thread.

 

[MrAngryFace]

Hey leguna, quit trying to be a tough guy. You fail at it just like you fail at everything else/

 

[anotheriori]

Hey, if you can show me one person in the WORLD that can do that knee move 10 times consecutive without messing up, then I'm wrong. I'm not just saying I can't do it, I'm saying NO ONE can.

No offense.. but this is the STUPIDEST thing i've ever heard. Its like saying.. "we'll I can't dunk a basketball/ lift a car.. (any other insane ability done by world record holders)" so therefore NO ONE can.

and shouta sure 'good' is subjective, but atleast their designs are unique/different unliked the original SF stereotypes, its atleast better then the gawd awful mortal kombat designs.

 

[Monk]

I agree that SSBM is not your traditional, arcade fighting game.
But it is a fighting game, and it has a huge tournament scene. Respect that.

Oh, and here's a video of two very well-known and excellent Japanese players playing one another - Masashi and his older brother Aniki.

((Please Right-Click and Save As))
S25 - Aniki Link vs. Masashi Ganon

Thats a good Link. But I think my brother could take these guys together.


This one is awesome though:

http://ssbm.captainjack.jp/movies/S108-isaifalcon-kenmarth.wmv

 

[Hitokage]

No offense.. but this is the STUPIDEST thing i've ever heard. Its like saying.. "we'll I can't dunk a basketball/ lift a car.. (any other insane ability done by world record holders)" so therefore NO ONE can.

I thought it was well established that there are going to be people who are simply gods at a game... like the guy who did the SMB2j superplay.

 

[Timedog]

because a feature is removed does not mean it a de-evolution. It may be because that feature did not work well, or because that feature does not work well with newly implemented features, so something had to be cut.

 

[Leguna]

MrAngryFace:

Hey leguna, quit trying to be a tough guy. You fail at it just like you fail at everything else/

Point and case. From here on I'm going to ignore your useless, off-topic comments. You let me know when you want to be serious and actually discuss gaming.

haunts:
You plan on getting Tekken 5 and mastering it? I do! Oh by the way, did you get SF3 for Xbox? Let's play! Leguna is obviously my tag.

 

[Lyte Edge]

haunts:
You plan on getting Tekken 5 and mastering it? I do! Oh by the way, did you get SF3 for Xbox? Let's play! Leguna is obviously my tag.

I don't understand why you are getting Tekken 5 if it isn't a "jump forward in fighting game evolution" like you want it to be. :lol

BTW Manuel wants it too!

 

[mint]

Putting KOF as copy-cat..for shame.

 

[Artanisix]

Thats a good Link. But I think my brother could take these guys together.


This one is awesome though:

http://ssbm.captainjack.jp/movies/S108-isaifalcon-kenmarth.wmv

Haha. Your brother wouldn't be able to touch either of them :lol Unless he goes to huge tournaments and places VERY well :lol You really have to play them to believe it... They are fucking INSANE when it comes to baiting and punishing. My god... It might be hard to see now if you don't understand everything they're doing, so I'll explain much of it.

Isai and Ken - the people in the movie you chose - Are pro American players. They move insanely fast and are freaking GODS. Do you see how they run forward then backward then forward etc? That's dash dancing. It confuses the opponent - they can't figure out when you strike or which way you're going... Perfect to bait and punish. They are incredible.

An L-Cancel is when you use an Arial A move (any direction), and tap L right before you land to cut exactly half of the lag of what would occur if you landed using that move. ALL people who want to enter tournaments MUST now how to L-Cancel. The difference is most drastic with Link's Arial Down A. Practice it, if you wish. The amount of lag cut off at the end is tremendous.

A Wavedash is jumping and then INSTANTLY air-dodging diagonally into the ground right after you leave the ground. If you want to practice this, try Luigi - He has the fastest wavedash, and can move faster then Captain Falcon can run. Luigi has, I believe, a 1 frame jump animation, so it's easy to do. It looks like a slide and it looks like the person just landed from a jump.

I don't know if there are any Fumi videos on that site, but Fumi is the greatest Yoshi player around Japan. Check him out. And check out some Captain Jack vs. Isai videos - that's a respectable Japanese player playing a respectable American video.

And the movies just go to show that tournament SSBM play is insanely different and much faster then casual SSBM play - Much like any other fighter. Until you understand how to L-Cancel, Wavedash, and Bait-And-Punish, along with all the little quirks and tricks of your chosen character, the game moves considerably slower.

Oh, and please, please right-click save-as the movies. Don't destroy Captain Jack's bandwidth.

 

[Lyte Edge]

Hey, there's an entire thread devoted to Smash Bros. and if it's a fighter now. Go post there.

 

[SomeDude]

I think some of the best fighting games ever have came out in the past 4 years.

 

[pjberri]

pjberri:
There is NO PLAYER IN THE WORLD THAT CAN DO AKIRA'S KNEE MOVE 10 TIMES IN A ROW! There is no such player. Stop thinking there is.

:lol I can do the move (maybe not 10 times in a row, it's not like I've ever tried it though) and I rarely use Akira. Don't hate the game 'cause you suck at it.

 

[Lyte Edge]

I think some of the best fighting games ever have came out in the past 4 years.

Despite the stupidity and descriptions that show he doesn't know what the hell he's talking about, Leguna's argument is that fighting games aren't moving forward, and I would actually have to agree with him. Nothing really new and revolutionary as been tried in a long time. of course the same can be said about virtually every other genre out there, too.

 

[MoxManiac]

PLAYMORE SUX

**runs away**

 

[Kintaro]

LyteEdge:
LOL!!! KOF was not the first game to have team battles, it was not the first to have assist attacks and the gameplay was NEVER anything new. Please stop with the, "you never talk about gameplay" because FACT is I ALWAYS DO!!! My final judgments always had a "GAMEPLAY" section, but that doesn't count does it? In every fighting listed above I mention a gameplay element that evolved the genre, but that doesn't count??? Stop with the false statements.

Care to back this up with evidence? Which game was the first to have 3 on 3 team battles as a central point of it's gameplay? Which featured assist attacks intergrated into it's gameplay for the point of strategy and combos in it's main gameplay? consistantly adding more and new characters into each game. Then evolving the way they play game by game. As Edge mentioned. Kyo in KOF 94, does not play like Kyo in 03. Not to mention the gameplay, like the SFs, was always more refined year by year.

So please, back your shit up, and you're on the first step to not owning yourself on a daily basis.

 

[Monk]

Haha. Your brother wouldn't be able to touch either of them :lol Unless he goes to huge tournaments and places VERY well :lol You really have to play them to believe it... They are fucking INSANE when it comes to baiting and punishing. My god... It might be hard to see now if you don't understand everything they're doing, so I'll explain much of it.

He can do all that except L-cancel, but i argue he doesnt need to do it with ness as he doesnt have any lag. He regularly beats 2 or 3 of us at a time with little to no effort with items and everything on stock.

 

[Artanisix]

It doesn't matter WHO you are. You must L-Cancel to be good. It doesn't matter if your Ness or Sheik or Fox with your near-lagless arial attacks - Cutting them in half is even BETTER. Tell him to start L-Canceling - it becomes second nature after doing it constantly.

 

[OG_Original Gamer]

A evolution in fighting will come from the technical capabilities of consoles. Most games to involve a ring or a stage that lacks any interactivity with your surrounding. Adding things like destructable chairs, tables, doors, lamps, pictures, windows and foundation. Instead of the fighters being limited to a ring present the gamer with stage that consist of four different areas.

Here's an example, say your playing with Paul and its Tekken6, Paul one of the most powerful punches in the game that sends his opponent flying. When this happen several things could occur, any of the previously mentioned interactive objects can be destroyed by the impact of the opponent or he may even go through the wall, revealing another section of the stage.

Make the stage dynamic, while fighting you knock over a lamp which starts a fire. This may force you and your opponent to move another section of the stage, because the both of you are being injured by the fire.

 

[Future]

--------------
A evolution in fighting will come from the technical capabilities of consoles
--------------

Yup. What Leguna said is probably how most people do think of fighting games. You gotta dig a little to find the differences in the latest sequels, and some differences are just different takes on what has been done before.

But once fights start looking like a Jackie Chan movie, with even more focus on environments and player movement, new standards will be created that will be mimiced for a years. Wait till next gen

 

[FightyF]

Artanisix don't bring this Smash Bros garbage in a thread about fighting games, please and thanks in advance!

 

[jarrod]

Artanisix don't bring this Smash Bros garbage in a thread about fighting games, please and thanks in advance!

Wonderful. Speaking of keeping the garbage out, how about you exit the thread?

 

[FightyF]

Dude, I told the guys to keep the Smesh Bros diversion out of the thread, there is already another thread for that, where you can discuss it to you heart's content.

 

[Crazymoogle]

As entertaining as the SSBM debate is, how can a thread asking whether VF4 has "evolved" be complete without a picture of this?

I'm a heavy duty Soul Calibur 1 player but even I have to admit this is one of the best fighters ever.

 

[levious]

Care to back this up with evidence? Which game was the first to have 3 on 3 team battles as a central point of it's gameplay? Which featured assist attacks intergrated into it's gameplay for the point of strategy and combos in it's main gameplay?

Yes, I want the answer to this as well.

 

[Leguna]

pjberri:
To each his own. If you think that a knee move that can't be executed when needed is a great thing, then you are blind to what good fighting games play like.

LyteEdge:
We'll see.

TO ALL:
Regarding my comments on KOF. I looked it up and I'm 100% WRONG! I stand corrected. I thought Marvel Vs Capcom 2 was the first to do assist attacks and I thought VF3 or Xmen vs Street Fighter were the first game to have team battles. KOF was the first to introduce a lot new gameplay mechanics such as team play, dodging and assist attacks. However a good game is one that is good all around (gameplay, music and graphics all matter equally). KOF's graphics have sucked since KOF'95 (about when Killer Instinct came out). I have no respect for that series for that reason alone. Why they haven't bothered to seriously update the graphics is beyond me.

 

[levious]

There went your point then. And falling back on knocking the graphics? Is this why you only play SFIII and not Hyper?

About the impossible knee... you're a pad only player yeah? A lot of Akira stuff was impossible to me prior to moving to sticks.

 

[Kintaro]

pjberri:

TO ALL:
Regarding my comments on KOF. I looked it up and I'm 100% WRONG! I stand corrected. I thought Marvel Vs Capcom 2 was the first to do assist attacks and I thought VF3 or Xmen vs Street Fighter were the first game to have team battles. KOF was the first to introduce a lot new gameplay mechanics such as team play, dodging and assist attacks. However a good game is one that is good all around (gameplay, music and graphics all matter equally). KOF's graphics have sucked since KOF'95 (about when Killer Instinct came out). I have no respect for that series for that reason alone. Why they haven't bothered to seriously update the graphics is beyond me.

You lose. KOF is quality all around. Anyone saying KOF graphics suck since 95 (this including the GORGEOUS 98' Slamfest??? You crackhead), while citing Killer Instinct in terms of good graphics (they WERE good for the time. However, KOFs sprites hold up even now compared to KI's washed out piece of shitness)... wow. Would hate to see you compare KI to KOF in terms of gameplay then. Sheesh.

 

[pjberri]

pjberri:
To each his own. If you think that a knee move that can't be executed when needed is a great thing, then you are blind to what good fighting games play like.

If you can't do the move despite the fact that you can get the practice mode to hold your hand through it, then you are blind to knowing how to play a good fighting game.