Parallax Scroll
Banned
a few more images for reference
and a standard hitbox
and a standard hitbox
Fighting Games Weekly | Feb 17-23 | United, Divided, Anime
- Thread starter enzo_gt
- Start date
Could definitely see myself buying the third one from the top if it was for sale somewhere.
I switch between the analog and the d-pad when I play on pad. I find some movements easier on analog over pad. Mostly play charge characters via the analog stick. I always dash/air dash with the d-pad though.
Parallax Scroll
Banned
I'm too used to doing attacks with my right hand, but a flipped version of that might work for me.
Emperor Bohe
Member
does anyone know why AE says I'm from the US online even though I'm in Canada?
edit: I should mention that it's fine on the 360. it's only on PC that I have thi sissue
What makes VF arcade stick particular?
Parallax Scroll
Banned
I've also seen a Tekken player who used a custom controller that was dualshock d-pad on the left and arcade style buttons on the right.
I did this for a little while when vanilla SFIV came out. Doing ultras almost always came out like butter with the analog stick.
I'm happy to be at a point in my fightin life where execution isn't really something I worry much about. Not to say I'm some lord of one frame links or something, but rather that I feel it's not something I need to focus on in order to become stronger anymore.
That's not being very objective.
First of all, arcade panel buttons are superior to pad face buttons for their accessibility and layout, while you can still make face buttons work. That leaves us with the issue of arcade stick, directional pad, analog stick, or hitbox for movement. The arcade stick, while being fundamentally different in usage mechanics from the two pad inputs most people spent their lives learning, does have some advantages. While hitboxes allow for rapid inputs in the hands of a skilled player, the physical presence of a stick with a singular direction offers a more intuitive and direct metaphor and fighting game inputs are designed with it in mind. Going outside fighting games, the stick allows for rolling motions that make games like Tetris The Grand Master easier to play (specifically, R/L, down, R/L, down, R/L, down, etc). Granted, the ability to alter the gate on the joystick to a diamond configuration helps with this.
The issue of ergonomics and repetitive stress injury is also important. Maintaining an input on an arcade stick requires only moderate continued pressure on a fairly large surface, be it the stick or panel buttons. Pads are notorious for tearing up thumbs. Some people like Q have mentioned being unable to use an arcade stick for reasons specific to their own condition, while I personally cannot play a game that requires more than two face buttons in a short span of time as the result of extensive pad use in other genres. Multiple button inputs or sequences are less of an issue in some games like Blazblue where you can get by with less button travel, but many characters in Street Fighter require quite a bit of button travel (Juri possibly requiring the most here).
VF is actually the game that got me to buy my first stick, although it's not the game that got me to use it almost exclusively--that has more to do with what I mentioned earlier.
Some inputs like "hold down, back, forward+P" are pretty tricky to do on pad, while it's trivially easy to do on stick. The myriad of button combinations featured in VF all get heavy use, and playing on pad requires extensive macroing to cover P, K, G, P+K, K+G, P+G, P+K+G. On a stick you can just hit the appropriate buttons directly.
Oneida:
Is that supposed to be an answer to my question?
Hitokage: those bolded words aren't really premises in an argument. That post was rambling. I can't rebut you thoroughly cuz I'm stuck in the mobile phone ghetto ATM but metaphors are just as ephemeral as the zeitgiest's they're relevant to.
Is that supposed to be an answer to my question?
Hitokage: those bolded words aren't really premises in an argument. That post was rambling. I can't rebut you thoroughly cuz I'm stuck in the mobile phone ghetto ATM but metaphors are just as ephemeral as the zeitgiest's they're relevant to.
It's three buttons, so playing on pad requires combinations since you're using your thumb to access P, K and G individually and your indexes to access those combinations. Some moves, such as Akira's knee (k+g, release g after one frame) are extremely difficult on pad for this reason, and much less so when you can have a finger on every button at all times. For directional input, consider hitting 3346 on a pad with your thumb, and imagine how much simpler the motion is with having a finger on either side of the lever. In the case of the pad, your thumb must travel a lot, and quickly. With a lever, it's 4 pushes of equal force and distance.
And I was simply making a small point before moving on.
Actually, input metaphors might change from time period to time period, but to software they are absolutely everything. Consider how the desktop computer is designed around the keyboard for text input and the mouse as a pointer device. Both Windows and Mac OS have developed this metaphor for decades, and one of the major reasons for the iPhone's success and extensive imitation is that Apple finally paired multi-touch technology with a full OS designed specifically for that mode of input. Of course, now that mobile smartphones of this type are as popular as they are, you now see tension between software designed for one or the other. Microsoft's Windows 8 made the mistake of confusing the multi-touch metaphor with the desktop metaphor and produced an inferior experience on the desktop as a result.
Similarly, videogame software is largely designed on the forms of input available to it, and for console gaming we've settled on the pad since the NES. Meanwhile, you see computer games like Starcraft which are fundamentally linked to the keyboard/mouse. Street Fighter was developed for the arcade, and that original mode of input remains the target platform. While alternative modes certainly work and may even offer advantages, they are secondary to development.
As fighting game bosses should be!
Guys, I'm getting a hefty paycheck pretty soon and I want to invest in a fightstick! Any recommendations? $100 is my max on buying this bad boy. I play on pad so the easier the transition, the better (probably square gate since I mash a bit with Gief and Wolverine).
I don't respond without quoting. If you're referring to the post below yours, how does it not?
That post was in response to u mentioning that u don't worry about execution anymore. Thought u were ignoring me or going just insane lol
Are macros still frowned upon? If not, I don't see these examples given as compelling. I'd have to try these things on my own time. Maybe I will.
Namco had a sale earlier. Two games + arcade stick for $60 that I jumped on. I realized sticks aren't for me after I started using it. It would take way too long for me to actually learn it.
Passive Assassin
Member
... still kicking myself to this day for not hopping on that deal.
It's not that macros are frowned upon, it's that they are unwieldy in this case.
God dammit. That's what I get for stepping outside.
How would macros help? Especially with directional input. Consider the example above - 3346, which Akira uses to crouch dash buffer his double palm, but many characters share the input. Let's quantify the amount of work your left hand does when executing input just in terms of distance travelled, with 1 unit being the radius of the d-pad. From 5 to 3 = 1, from 3 to 3 = 0, from 3 to 4 = 2, from 4 to 6 = 2. Total distance = 5 d-pad radius.
Now, consider a joystick lever. Unlike using a d-pad, a lever has a force that will return it to neutral with no work from the user (unless your stick is garbage). This means that the amount of work needed to do to reach any direction is equal. If you need to confirm this, sit down with your controller and see for yourself. From 5 to 3 = 1, from 5 to 3 = 1, from 5 to 4 = 1, from 5 to 6 = 1, totaling 4.
Now, I'll be the first to admit that this simplifies many things: I don't take into account that you have to press down on a d-pad while pushing a lever does both the work of travel and activating the microswitch. Nor do I take into account that reaching some directions, such as 9, can be more difficult depending on how you hold the stick. It approximates many things, but the point should be clear enough.
VanillaCakeIsBurning
Member
I use the analog stick on pad. Some people consider this to be anathema.
Come at me.
Come at me.
Use whatever you want, who gives a shit?
Kung Lao is seemingly (?) a horrible matchup for him. I didn't have many problems with any of the other characters I blitzed through Arcade mode with, but with her I had to continue literally over 10 times. Fun.
I do.
Don't worry. It was a Black Friday sale.
It's not like you missed out recently.
That's kinda funny because its exactly what I did. Bought it because it was such a great deal, then realized that I don't actually like playing on stick.
irfaanator
Banned
pads are too small for my big meaty claws. I like stick but i am ass when facing a certain direction, and I actually like the hitbox I have. The only downside to hitbox is the qcf hcb like motions in kof come out slower than if I did them on a stick.
Oneida: Those quantifiers couldn't be more arbitrary. Why would hitting 3 from neutral be anymore difficult than hitting 3 twice? I don't see it. Part of the problem I have with arcade sticks is that very force that brings it back to neutral you mentioned can make quick inputs that require heavy use of neutral (viper in ssf4 to work around input leniency) awkward. It still takes time for the stick to move back to neutral. On pad, my input is neutral with me simply taking my thumb off the direction. Maybe I just don't get what you're trying to illustrate.
And hitting 8 is more frustrating for me than hitting 7_9 personally (I often get those two inputs instead).
And hitting 8 is more frustrating for me than hitting 7_9 personally (I often get those two inputs instead).
Huw_Dawson
Member
atomic moth
Member
Yeah, returning to neutral is a pain in the ass in Tekken and probably why most use a pad. I can't constantly cancel my movement as easily with stick as I can with a pad.
Its different from hitting 3 twice on pad because I've chosen to quantify the amount of work done when using pad by the amount of distance traveled - if you try the above input you'll see thats what's slowing you down. If you would like to take into consideration both the work of pressing the d pad and the time it takes for the stick to return to neutral, you'll see they more or less cancel eachother out. Sit down with it if you don't believe me. You will never ever ever be able to hit 3346 as fast on pad as I can on stick.
atomic moth
Member
You're assuming the thumb can't return to neutral as fast as a stick, regardless of the amount of work involved. You're also assuming the same part of the thumb is used to hit each part of the d pad.
I can use the tip down to the first joint of my thumb on the d pad depending on what I want to do. Usually the joint is used for quick side to side presses. I also use the middle joint to hit X and O on the ps3 controller with my right thumb. The ladies love me.
Pads in 3D fighting games are certainly a good time, and sometimes in newer 2D fighters even though the control was erratic at sometimes like I was talking about earlier, doing links was crazy easy because of how close you could time inputs. A true updated version of the Sega Saturn pad with cleaner inputs and more responsive buttons would be godlike.
Heh, I guess this one of those times where having small hands helps. Pad ftw.
Although I do miss out on the cool stick designs.
Shouta
Member
Was I about to say this, lol. Any pad player worth a lick will be using their multiple parts of their thumbs (particularly the first joint of the thumb) in a rocking motion. This doesn't require them to lift their full finger off the pad. As Kimosabe points out, pads return to neutral by releasing the pressure of a direction. So the time between inputs can be incredibly miniscule. A stick has to travel back and forth which increases the time between inputs for the most part.
Also, because pads active by pressing down, you can actually shorten input time by holding close to the center and only applying pressure there to get the press. This is one of the reasons why an SPD on a pad is so damn easy, especially the non-shortcut ones.
Now, whether or not it's a clean input is another issue but pad inputs can be very fast, especially in regards to the d-pad.
VanillaCakeIsBurning
Member
I said outright that I was simplifying things and nothing you've stated makes my conclusion untrue. You haven't taken into account that the throw of a level is far shorter than the radius of a d pad, and that the force which returns the lever is part of what makes a stick advantageous for inputs that aren't a fluid motion. What I've said is true, and I encourage you to try it for yourself. And here's another one to try: 466p+k with Dural. When inputted as faster as possible, the move has different properties and looks different. When trying it, why do you find it easier on stick than pad?
SloaneRisette
Member
atomic moth
Member
Ha. This has turned into another stuck vs pad debate.
As I stated earlier, using my whole thumb for side to side motions is easiest for me. So I hope that answers your question.
I was going to point out your clunky math earlier, but this whole debate is stupid. And just for reference, I use a pad for tekken and a stuck for everything else.
Kalamari
Member
I think I'm in love. <3
Damn Kadey, you're awesome. First stick and I want. God damn that is sexy!
Get rid of that Battop and we may have a winner.
Cloudius12
Member
if you are willing to spent an extra $100.
What is clunky about my math? It's simple arithmetic which approximates something I welcome you to test.
atomic moth
Member
You don't count moving your hands back to neutral in the tapping motion and don't take in to account that pad players can literally have no lateral movement of their thumbs over the pad while still hitting any direction