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Fighting Games Weekly | Feb 9-15 | Mikrotransaktions™

Clawww

Member

Good read. I've always held this view, but this sheds some more light on the idea.

I find it hard to believe that a group of devs and playtesters didn't realize the ramifications of fast-falls and L-cancels, and they obviously weren't unaware of traditional fighting game design concepts. I just can't imagine the team NOT having played lots of 1v1s during development, and that surely would have influenced the final product.
 

Rhapsody

Banned
I never understood why people thought so much of SSBM was a happy accident. It seemed like they were well aware of the main issues SSB64 had and they were all addressed in Meele. I think what would be more interesting would be to really figure out to what extent the game was planned, in terms of the skill ceilings being what they are and some of the craziness that can happen in that game. The article touches on things that were deliberate by HAL but it doesn't really go to that next level, which I would say is a bit disappointing if it wouldn't end up being complete speculation.

The more important thing I think is that games need to have solid fundamental systems, and I think SSBM and MvC2 speak to that better than anything. If the game's core rules are solid, it can withstand a ton of bullshit. Both of those games have some really dumb stuff in it but the game lets you work around it.

Agreed. There's a lot that feels deliberate considering it was a natural step forward after 64. It's a shame that we don't have HAL working on the Smash games anymore. While I wouldn't expect Brawl to have been Melee 2.0 if HAL worked on it, HAL really had a good idea on what worked and what didn't regarding mechanics.

On your latter part, it reminds me of how much I enjoyed listening to Mike Z discussing the ins and outs of Marvel 2's system. So much I didn't know on what restricts the players and what helps prevents certain things like high/low unblockables.
 

Dlent

Member
Looks like I picked the right time to get into Melty, because an awesome fan made patch just came out giving the game rollback netcode. Game is much simpler than it always appeared; played a couple dozen smooth matches for the first time online.
 

Kumubou

Member
Looks like I picked the right time to get into Melty, because an awesome fan made patch just came out giving the game rollback netcode. Game is much simpler than it always appeared; played a couple dozen smooth matches for the first time online.
It's really goddamn nice to play MB coast to coast with 0-1 delay... kind of wish it came out 5 years ago though. :|

Now come play me for ANY AMOUNT!!!
of waifus
 

Azure J

Member
It's really goddamn nice to play MB coast to coast with 0-1 delay... kind of wish it came out 5 years ago though. :|

Now come play me for ANY AMOUNT!!!
of waifus

Might have to come through and see if I can get a decent Shiki Ryougi going on.
 

Dahbomb

Member
The more important thing I think is that games need to have solid fundamental systems, and I think SSBM and MvC2 speak to that better than anything. If the game's core rules are solid, it can withstand a ton of bullshit. Both of those games have some really dumb stuff in it but the game lets you work around it.
There is nothing "solid" about MVC2's systems. The game is playable (as stated by many players and those who know about the systems) only because bugs counter bugs or bull shit counters bull shit. It's a freak accident like catching lightning in a bottle and if one or two mechanics were different the game (or worked as intended) would be damn near unplayable. You can't purposely design your game like that.

If push blocking worked as intended then we wouldn't have guard cancel and Sentinel + Spiral would run everything (aka not allow you to play the game). If we didn't have auto guard after push blocks (another bug) then Magneto/Storm could not be defended against.


I don't know much about Melee to comment about it being an "accident" or not but MVC2 is 100% an accident that it is even playable.
 

Kumubou

Member
Wait, how recent is this netplay patch?
It came out eight days ago. Go ahead and download the latest version and just unzip it into your MBCC directory. It also includes some nice offline features as well, such as the option to broadcast local matches(so people can spectate a local game), hot swappable controllers and in-game button config (!!), and a couple of extra training mode functions (like being able to reset to corners and swap positions). It also lets you add input delay to training mode offline and play training mode online with someone else, because why not.

I actually have a wild idea for MB side tournament at Evo this year using this -- I hope I can pull it off. :x
 

Azure J

Member
The way I've always seen it, Melee and MvC2 are polar opposite instances that led to the same outcome in their playability. Melee had an almost OCD level of care given to its various subsystems, to the point that some of them you would have to be invested in studying frame data or breaking down engine code wholesale to see and then think about why a developer would even include such a thing. On the other hand, MVC2 was a Great Pacific Trash Island where a bunch of shit from Capcom's then current-ish games was thrown together and shipped out seemingly to fall apart and die only to instead congeal into something that a competitive scene could tread on.

RockTurtle your taste is fantastic! Real. Yeah, it's a super weird trip but I have a thing for Red Riding Hood so my name stuck =v=

Something I've noticed for a long time is that FightingGAF (including the folks who show up to spectator threads/GAF-chats as I call them) has the highest crossover of OG Manga-GAF regulars out of the sub-GAFs I'm a part of. :lol
 

Astarte

Member
i read the manga a long time ago. what a head trip.

*4 armed glasses girl is best girl*

RockTurtle your taste is fantastic! Real. Yeah, it's a super weird trip but I have a thing for Red Riding Hood so my name stuck =v=


OHHHH LORD

Something I've noticed for a long time is that FightingGAF (including the folks who show up to spectator threads/GAF-chats as I call them) has the highest crossover of OG Manga-GAF regulars out of the sub-GAFs I'm a part of. :lol

FightingGAF is more anime than they want to admit lol
 

Rhapsody

Banned
Thanks guys. I don't have a working windows computer right now, but I'll be buying a new one soon.

This has me excited for Melty again.
 

Anne

Member
Melty is funny. Hopefully this lets me play with some friends who have weaker net.

Also more Persona streams from me are coming soon :x
 

Beats

Member
Looks like Smash 4 got some changes in the new patch. The new 3ds update breaks old replays.

There are no detailed patch notes again like last time though.
 

Azure J

Member
Looks like Smash 4 got some changes in the new patch. The new 3ds update breaks old replays.

There are no detailed patch notes again like last time though.

Welp, this is going to be exciting. Can't wait to see what gets found out (or the collective effort for "its_fucking_nothing.gif").
 
Looks like Smash 4 got some changes in the new patch. The new 3ds update breaks old replays.

There are no detailed patch notes again like last time though.

oh boy I can't wait for all the false alarms!

inb4 vectoring is back and is 2x more effective than it was originally

inb4 absolutely nothing
 

Kumubou

Member
Hot on the heels of AnimEVO (now with shirts!) comes... CEOtaku??? Goddamnit.

Melty is funnyamazing.
Fixed. :p

There is nothing "solid" about MVC2's systems. The game is playable (as stated by many players and those who know about the systems) only because bugs counter bugs or bull shit counters bull shit. It's a freak accident like catching lightning in a bottle and if one or two mechanics were different the game (or worked as intended) would be damn near unplayable. You can't purposely design your game like that.

If push blocking worked as intended then we wouldn't have guard cancel and Sentinel + Spiral would run everything (aka not allow you to play the game). If we didn't have auto guard after push blocks (another bug) then Magneto/Storm could not be defended against.


I don't know much about Melee to comment about it being an "accident" or not but MVC2 is 100% an accident that it is even playable.
I guess my question here is why do you not think pushblock giving you autoguard and blockstun reduction? It was pretty obvious what the tag-team mechanics in MvC1 led to -- you don't think they would sit there and go "gee we might want to give someone a mechanic to help fight this"? Or that they were aware of how unreal high-low mixups and unblockables could get and put in something as a guard against that? Never mind how few truly low hitting assists there are in MvC2... but there are a couple, and I think they were aware of the implications.

I know that trying to grasp at developer intent in a situation like this is a fool's errand, but I think Capcom put a little more thought into the mechanics than most people realize. I don't think you'll find anyone who will disagree that the way the game ended up playing was a goddamn miracle, though.
 

kirblar

Member
Nice timing on the Balance patch from Nintendo. Dropping them right after events like Apex, Capcom Cup, or Evo is definitely the right way to help promote your game.
 
[QUOTE="God's Beard!";151368287]What if she was standing next to you on stage at EVO during top 8 and the baby kicked your hand, executing the last hit for the game winning combo. Are you willing to deny that possibility?[/QUOTE]
She wasn't going to come either way. :p

Stupid dogs.
 

Dahbomb

Member
I guess my question here is why do you not think pushblock giving you autoguard and blockstun reduction? It was pretty obvious what the tag-team mechanics in MvC1 led to -- you don't think they would sit there and go "gee we might want to give someone a mechanic to help fight this"? Or that they were aware of how unreal high-low mixups and unblockables could get and put in something as a guard against that? Never mind how few truly low hitting assists there are in MvC2... but there are a couple, and I think they were aware of the implications.
They fixed the tag team "issues" in MVC1 by removing those assists entirely (Psylocke, Colossus, Juggernaut etc) and removing the combined hyper mechanic (which was super broken). Aside from that there aren't big tag team mechanics in MVC1 to begin with. MVC2 was completely brand new for them mechanics speaking.

Just like how Tron's assist is not supposed to do that much damage or Akuma/Ken's Tatsu doing hilariously high damage or Juggernaut's power up glitch... these mechanics are clearly unintended. It just so happened that these mechanics ended up negating other bull shit in the game that should never be in a game to begin with.

Some mechanics they put in place for whatever reason but ended up being awful for the game as well. Like the way normal jumping actions and super jumping actions work... it's pretty obvious Capcom did not want you to get hit by unblockables if you did a normal jump. It's also obvious Capcom did not intend for you to get opened up for free on incoming due to the normal jump state. All of these are the results a mechanic Capcom put into play which restricts number of actions in the air INCLUDING blocking.


That said some mechanics in MVC2 are actually good and I wished MVC3 would've retained some of them. Stuff like characters not being able to do air dashes/air moves after resets was good for reset/mix up game. In MVC3 many ground characters who are designed to be reset heavy can't do good resets because a lot of characters can dash out of them... this doesn't exist in MVC2 for better or for worse. Another mechanics is the assists functioning when point characters are hit... while happy birthdays and double snap backs happened in MVC2 they weren't nearly as common as MVC3. It's debatable whether this is a good thing or not for MVC3 as you had to think much harder before pressing that assist button. In MVC2 what would happen is that the assist just comes in and does a taunt if the point character just got hit so the happy birthday chance is greatly reduced.
 

fader

Member
I'M SO DONE WITH DELAY BASED ONLINE FOR FIGHTING GAMES!!

It's like impossible to react block to things I block offline, things that are 2 frame punishable are impossible to punish, anti-air trades all the freaking time because the game doesn't register it fast enough. I am so sick of playing on delay, this shit sucks!
 

mbpm1

Member
I'M SO DONE WITH DELAY BASED ONLINE FOR FIGHTING GAMES!!

It's like impossible to react block to things I block offline, things that are 2 frame punishable are impossible to punish, anti-air trades all the freaking time because the game doesn't register it fast enough. I am so sick of playing on delay, this shit sucks!

It's the worst when you wanna play a charge character too.

Chun lol
 

Dlent

Member
I'M SO DONE WITH DELAY BASED ONLINE FOR FIGHTING GAMES!!

It's like impossible to react block to things I block offline, things that are 2 frame punishable are impossible to punish, anti-air trades all the freaking time because the game doesn't register it fast enough. I am so sick of playing on delay, this shit sucks!

Scroll up this page for a suggestion on something you might want to try out.
 

fader

Member
It's the worst when you wanna play a charge character too.

Chun lol

I don't even touch Guile online and that's one of my favorite characters to play

Done with Xrd?

I love Xrd too much to suffer online. I gave up after the 2nd week.

Scroll up this page for a suggestion on something you might want to try out.

I am willing to play any game that is rollback. I am sticking to fightcade and any other game that is rollback.
 

Nyoro SF

Member
Skullgirls online is pretty divine. Don't give a fuck what Capcom thinks is acceptable, if their netcode experience doesn't match Skullgirls then your fighter might as well be dead to me.

Give me dat numerical ping... dat numerical delay adjuster... dat.... everything.
 

Kumubou

Member
We already have names picked out. :-O
Thanks to everyone who gave congratulations. Hopefully everything goes smoothly. First time, and all that. My wife throws up at least three times a day right now...
 
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