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Final say in the PGR3 60fps debate..
- Thread starter thorns
- Start date
I don't care how polished PGR3 is going to be, how many features it has or how well the gameplay turns out, if it runs at anything less than 60fps in this THIRD FUCKING GENERATION of 3D videogames I not buying it. Period.
To be honest that is NOT good news.
M$ made a statement by saying that games should be running at 60fps, and with all the power of the Xbox360 under that hood it's inexcusable for PGR3 not to be running at 60fps. I mean, my lord, the machine is way more power than the MODEL3 board, and every racing game Sega dished out on that board not only looked f'ing unbelievable but they're ran at a liquid 60fps! Bizarre has NO excuses as theyÂ’re using a super powerful machine!
I bet if SEGA arcade racing teams developed a racing game using this hardware everyone would become awestruck with the graphical quality running at 60fps. Just look at what they did with OUTRUN SP, an Xbox hardware machine with breathtakingly bliss graphics!
Sorry... That's my 2-cent but I'm sure everyone here will agree with what I have said.
M$ made a statement by saying that games should be running at 60fps, and with all the power of the Xbox360 under that hood it's inexcusable for PGR3 not to be running at 60fps. I mean, my lord, the machine is way more power than the MODEL3 board, and every racing game Sega dished out on that board not only looked f'ing unbelievable but they're ran at a liquid 60fps! Bizarre has NO excuses as theyÂ’re using a super powerful machine!
I bet if SEGA arcade racing teams developed a racing game using this hardware everyone would become awestruck with the graphical quality running at 60fps. Just look at what they did with OUTRUN SP, an Xbox hardware machine with breathtakingly bliss graphics!
Sorry... That's my 2-cent but I'm sure everyone here will agree with what I have said.
The power of next-gen consoles has absolutely NOTHING to do with games being 30 or 60 fps locked. You can make a 600 fps or 6 fps game on the 360/ PS3 it's all about choices.
HIGHER textures, effects, polycounts, geometry
or
60 fps
You can't have both. Never. If your game is running at 60 fps on 100GHz, GeForce 9999, 10GB machine you can always add some nifty new effects or up polycounts, lighting etc. and that will slow it down to 30 fps.
It's always dev's choice.
Prettier or smoother.
"Some PS1 games were @ 60 fps!" is not an argument.
HIGHER textures, effects, polycounts, geometry
or
60 fps
You can't have both. Never. If your game is running at 60 fps on 100GHz, GeForce 9999, 10GB machine you can always add some nifty new effects or up polycounts, lighting etc. and that will slow it down to 30 fps.
It's always dev's choice.
Prettier or smoother.
"Some PS1 games were @ 60 fps!" is not an argument.
Agent Icebeezy
Welcome beautful toddler, Madison Elizabeth, to the horde!
I'd wager 90% of the games we get for this upcoming gen will be 30fps
Spare the technically bro as everyone knows this already.
All we care about is what we see. So bottom line is that we want kickass games running at 60fps! Sega delivered this and MUCH MORE in the arcades with an inferior hardware and they're delivered again with Outrun SP with today's 5 years old hardware, also Polyphony delivered too. There is no reason why we can't have that with PGR3.
As you've said it's all about getting the balance but at the same time it's also all about damn good programming, but none the less Bizarre, go get the balance already! Simple as that.
All we care about is what we see. So bottom line is that we want kickass games running at 60fps! Sega delivered this and MUCH MORE in the arcades with an inferior hardware and they're delivered again with Outrun SP with today's 5 years old hardware, also Polyphony delivered too. There is no reason why we can't have that with PGR3.
As you've said it's all about getting the balance but at the same time it's also all about damn good programming, but none the less Bizarre, go get the balance already! Simple as that.
Trojan X said:
You say spare the technicality, yet somehow model 3 should be our benchmark? there are already games on this gen that stomp all over model 3, albeit maybe not with your nostalgia goggles on. I still love Daytona USA (1) , but admit that its looks like shit now.
mrklaw said:
You've missed the point entirely!
I'll say again. We want 60fps games and that is something that M$ strongly stated that we should received. Model 3 is an inferior machine compared to the 360 but yet games delivered on there provided graphics that were practically ahead of its time. If machines were an issue before they shouldn't be now, we want the goods and you can provide the goods if you're a good developer - its' as simple as that!
It`s funny how many claim 30fps is better because then you can have more detailed graphics. But what 30fps does, in fast moving games like racers especially, is make the graphics look like blurry washed out shit. All the graphical detail is basically wasted once it moves because 30fps creates a natural blur due to the jerky movement.
This is my biggest issue with 30fps, it makes games look like shit no matter how detailed they are. Sure they may look great in screens, once you see they move it`s all a mess.
And if you don`t believe so, ask yourself what are the best looking games on the market? Almost exclusively 60fps ones. GT4, Ninja Gaiden, God of War, Rallisport 1/2, DOA etc.
This is my biggest issue with 30fps, it makes games look like shit no matter how detailed they are. Sure they may look great in screens, once you see they move it`s all a mess.
And if you don`t believe so, ask yourself what are the best looking games on the market? Almost exclusively 60fps ones. GT4, Ninja Gaiden, God of War, Rallisport 1/2, DOA etc.
Trojan X said:
OK, then I agree with you
I don't think anyone on here would prefer 30fps. Its just that MS have been OK with 30 if it means prettier screenshots.
Hopefully nextgen screenshots won't tell the whole story, so video will be more important. Therefore 60fps might be pushed more.
Instigator
Banned
Borys said:
You also understand more people are asking for a frame rate priority rather than details. I know PGR2 sold less than its predecessor, significantly less so, there might be different reasons for that, but the perception of it being an inferior looking game (as frame rate goes) has had to have been a factor.
AtomicShroom
Member
Games next gen: 60fps or die.
I'm getting real fucking sick of 30fps games. I want fluidity, dammit. It directly impacts the controls, thus the experience and the fun.
I'm getting real fucking sick of 30fps games. I want fluidity, dammit. It directly impacts the controls, thus the experience and the fun.
Shogmaster
Member
You guys are forgetting the golden rule: You can never give devs enough power. There's always more shit you can throw at an engine, be they more geometry or effect, until it drops below 60fps. It doesn't matter if it's XBox360 or XBox3600.
Having said that, personally, I think the only things that will prevent Bizzare from making PGR3 run at 60fps is lack of time to optimize the enigine. They have 60fps as their goal for PGR3, unlike the PGR2 which they knew from the beggining that with the additional Live net code and improved graphics, they were aiming for 30fps. It's a fight against the launch date.
Having said that, personally, I think the only things that will prevent Bizzare from making PGR3 run at 60fps is lack of time to optimize the enigine. They have 60fps as their goal for PGR3, unlike the PGR2 which they knew from the beggining that with the additional Live net code and improved graphics, they were aiming for 30fps. It's a fight against the launch date.
Instigator
Banned
MbGCaM said:
Stunt Race FX is very fluid then.
So are Race Drivin', Starfox...
maybe i'm being optimistic, but it sounds to me that the game will be 60 fps.
as shog said, in pgr2, bizarre said they were actually aiming for 30fps. something about in microsofts play test research showing that the majority of gamers couldnt tell a difference between 30 and 60.
this latest post is good news. bizarre is actually working to make the game 60 fps, and from the way its worded, it sounds pretty damn likely thats how it will ship.
baring any "mad glitches"
as shog said, in pgr2, bizarre said they were actually aiming for 30fps. something about in microsofts play test research showing that the majority of gamers couldnt tell a difference between 30 and 60.
this latest post is good news. bizarre is actually working to make the game 60 fps, and from the way its worded, it sounds pretty damn likely thats how it will ship.
baring any "mad glitches"
Borys said:
There's something more to it. The 360 and PS3 are powerfull enough to make great looking games (alleluia better looking than PS2/Xbox) at 60 fps.
I'm pretty sure they can wow me enough at 60 fps with "less effects".
If 60 fps can make games looking like Gears of War then i don't need a 30 fps game that looks like Killzone. (if they can ever make something like the Killzone demo at 60 fps next-gen then it's cool of course but it may be wishfull thinking)
op_ivy said:maybe i'm being optimistic, but it sounds to me that the game will be 60 fps.
as shog said, in pgr2, bizarre said they were actually aiming for 30fps. something about in microsofts play test research showing that the majority of gamers couldnt tell a difference between 30 and 60.
this latest post is good news. bizarre is actually working to make the game 60 fps, and from the way its worded, it sounds pretty damn likely thats how it will ship.
baring any "mad glitches"
Well, I hope so bro, though as you know, 60fps is only one hurdle as they still have to develop a damn good game. I mean, for me to love M:SR allot more than PGR1 & 2 is damn worrying. If I am unable to feel the love for PGR3 then I'll become hugely disappointed with Bizarre. Let's hope that this time around they will not listen to the laid back casual gamer that provided Bizarre tips for PGR2 and just give us a damn good game.
A long shot, but i hope this will be the DMC3 of racing games - first one awesome, second one crap, third one made people's brains explode. We'll see...
Shogmaster said:
I said the same damn thing a few posts ago.
Instigator said:
Sure, it's a matter of personal taste. 30 fps is the bare minimum NOT recommended for racers, shooters, platformers though. Adventure games or RPGs can do with it.
Wyzdom said:
Absolutely. Once we see two next-gen racers - one @ 30 the other @ 60 fps then we can make comments "It was or wasn't worth it (30 or 60 fps)".
Instigator
Banned
The Inca ruins in the mountains, with the different layers of clouds is one of the most spectacular racing moments I've ever witnessed. Outrun 2 SP can certainly look sweet.
But I generally prefer the locales of the first Outrun 2.
But I generally prefer the locales of the first Outrun 2.
Yes they look great, but there is a VERY big difference in how you can optimize a rail racer like Outrun where the camera can ONLY go forward, and a free racing game (not even free roaming, just where the camera actually follows the car direction and not the road) like PGR and everything else. If you know exactly where the camera will be at all times, it's *much* easier to use much more polys in a scene.Trojan X said:Do you like these pictures:
Well these are 60fps and they still make my mouth water.
Instigator
Banned
Blimblim said:
Many of those scenes show the road extend right into the horizon. People are not asking as much of PGR and since the game is city-based, it can cheat plenty of times and have large chunk of the scenery hidden by buildings nearby.
Yes it shows the road right into the horizon, but the programmers can simply decide that at this point they will trade scenery polys versus draw distance, because they are in a very controlled environment. Basically the programmers could know for each position of the camera what will be shown and make sure it never dips under 60 fps under any circumstances by removing just enough polys to the scenary when needed. It's something you simply CAN'T do if you are not in control of the camera at all times. Besides art (of course), it's also the reason why Panzer Dragoon Orta is still one of the must amazing game visually on Xbox. Rail = total control.Instigator said:
Blimblim said:
Can you say the same thing for GT4? What about Ferrari 355? Are you trying to find a reason for the developers to go, "oh that's fine, if we can't do it we can think just like BlimBlim"? Do you know what I trying to say, bro?
I'm saying that what you saying is true but it is not an excuse that can be used in this day and age anymore, especially with what we've already mentioned here on this page. Anyway we'll see what goes down in the next few weeks or so.
I'm not trying to find excuses for 30 fps games, I'm only stating that it's *much* easier to optimize a game like Outrun because it's on rails. GT4 is a much better example to compare with PGR since both should use the same type of camera.Trojan X said:
All I wanted to say is that Outrun can't be compared at all to any other racer technically. Compare GT4 to Forza all you want, but Outrun is a completely different beast.
Blimblim said:
PGR is on rails too. Yes, there are 'multiple' paths in a city, but each of those is probably a separate resource that is loaded in - skewing detail towards those buildings and roads that are on the actual racing line. So its likely as on-rails as Outrun2 or GT4
You could compare PGR3's camera (if it's the same as any all other PGRs) to any other "free" racer where you can actually turn around and have the camera follow you. So basically 99% of all recent racing games, be it GT4, Forza, Toca and others. Of course they all use different optimizations, but they all share the same basic problem of not knowing for sure where the camera can be and especially the direction it is pointing at. That's where keeping a constant framerate gets much more difficult.Trojan X said:
mrklaw: Whatever
WHOAguitarninja
Member
Shogmaster said:
I just wanted to point out that Bizarre did NOT always have 30fps as a goal for PGR2. They realised with what they were doing that they would not be able to hit 60fps consistently sometime after the E3 it was shown at, and so they added in AA and AF and set their sights at 30. It was originally shooting for 60fps, and at one point it was running at a not very stable 60fps.
WHOAguitarninja
Member
GhaleonEB said:
It's the final word for now. It's obviously not concrete, but it shuts up the discussion of what they're going for.
Developers will rarely tell you straight up that it'll be 60fps no matter what if their game pushes the hardware to any major degree. DICE gave the same response on RSC2 when screens for that started coming out. They said they were trying to get 60fps but that 30fps was an option they could use if they had to.
Guess what, release day for it came around and it was a silky smooth 60.
I'm very confident this will be 60fps. Bizarre knows what they're doing and I trust they'll put forth the best racing game on the X360 at launch in nearly every respect.
That being said, even if John Titor came and told us that it would be 30fps, I'd would still be my most anticipated X360 game. PGR2 was just too freaking good for me not to get hyped over this.
Blimblim said:You could compare PGR3's camera (if it's the same as any all other PGRs) to any other "free" racer where you can actually turn around and have the camera follow you. So basically 99% of all recent racing games, be it GT4, Forza, Toca and others. Of course they all use different optimizations, but they all share the same basic problem of not knowing for sure where the camera can be and especially the direction it is pointing at. That's where keeping a constant framerate gets much more difficult.
mrklaw: Whatever
Seems I misread you. Can you seriously not turn around in Outrun2? Its like megarace but realtime?
All I meant was that PGR isn't free roaming in the sense that the entire city is rendered and you drive through it. Each course would be optimised for the bit you are driving along just like 99.9% of racing games.
With all the detail PGR3 is pumping out...I'd say it'd be hard to get it at 30fps...but their words say otherwise.
PGR2 was the best looking racer out there when you disregard framerate. One of the reasons was because of the insane lighting...and when they started doing it...they realized that 60fps was not realistic and it wasn't even a target. The target was a constant 30 fps.
Whereas now, the target is 60 fps. They clearly say, outside a catastrophe, it will stay that way. It seems that up to this point, it will run at 60 fps.
PGR2 was the best looking racer out there when you disregard framerate. One of the reasons was because of the insane lighting...and when they started doing it...they realized that 60fps was not realistic and it wasn't even a target. The target was a constant 30 fps.
Whereas now, the target is 60 fps. They clearly say, outside a catastrophe, it will stay that way. It seems that up to this point, it will run at 60 fps.